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Why so few American bands in 70's prog?
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Something that's never said is that the Brits recycle music such as blues and R&R while the Yanks invented it. The same could be true of prog if you look at early British prog as recycling classical music and it's themes. Not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but there it is.

I know I'm looking for trouble with this post, but does the term "yanks" include the black bluesmen that invented the genres mentioned above? 

At least the Brits worshiped the blues, they never meant no disrespect. 

Do you know the case of Sister Rosetta Tharpe who barely got any work as a musician once Elvis and other r'n'r artist became big? It was a British jazz musician that saved her career asking her to come play & sing in the UK and Europe. 
Yes to the black "yanks" question, although I'm not sure that Black Americans would enjoy being called Yanks, and yes, the British loved jazz as well as blues and R&B. But they cannot lay claim to these genres.

who laid claim? I'm curious :))))
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Something that's never said is that the Brits recycle music such as blues and R&R while the Yanks invented it. The same could be true of prog if you look at early British prog as recycling classical music and it's themes. Not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but there it is.

I know I'm looking for trouble with this post, but does the term "yanks" include the black bluesmen that invented the genres mentioned above? 

At least the Brits worshiped the blues, they never meant no disrespect. 

Do you know the case of Sister Rosetta Tharpe who barely got any work as a musician once Elvis and other r'n'r artist became big? It was a British jazz musician that saved her career asking her to come play & sing in the UK and Europe. 
Yes to the black "yanks" question, although I'm not sure that Black Americans would enjoy being called Yanks, and yes, the British loved jazz as well as blues and R&B. But they cannot lay claim to these genres.

who laid claim? I'm curious :))))
Blues and R&B may have African origins but they are considered American musical forms.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Something that's never said is that the Brits recycle music such as blues and R&R while the Yanks invented it. The same could be true of prog if you look at early British prog as recycling classical music and it's themes. Not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but there it is.

I know I'm looking for trouble with this post, but does the term "yanks" include the black bluesmen that invented the genres mentioned above? 

At least the Brits worshiped the blues, they never meant no disrespect. 

Do you know the case of Sister Rosetta Tharpe who barely got any work as a musician once Elvis and other r'n'r artist became big? It was a British jazz musician that saved her career asking her to come play & sing in the UK and Europe. 
Yes to the black "yanks" question, although I'm not sure that Black Americans would enjoy being called Yanks, and yes, the British loved jazz as well as blues and R&B. But they cannot lay claim to these genres.

who laid claim? I'm curious :))))
Blues and R&B may have African origins but they are considered American musical forms.

so who was the Brit or European musician who said he'd invented jazz or blues? :)
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Steve G: Blues and R&B may have African origins but they are considered American musical forms.

That's the general take on it......but regarding prog, where's Dean when you need a nice long erudite post on why prog is an English and European thing..?

;)
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^ Absolutely! If ever there was a question with dean's name written on it, this it!
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Something that's never said is that the Brits recycle music such as blues and R&R while the Yanks invented it. The same could be true of prog if you look at early British prog as recycling classical music and it's themes. Not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but there it is.

I know I'm looking for trouble with this post, but does the term "yanks" include the black bluesmen that invented the genres mentioned above? 

At least the Brits worshiped the blues, they never meant no disrespect. 

Do you know the case of Sister Rosetta Tharpe who barely got any work as a musician once Elvis and other r'n'r artist became big? It was a British jazz musician that saved her career asking her to come play & sing in the UK and Europe. 
Yes to the black "yanks" question, although I'm not sure that Black Americans would enjoy being called Yanks, and yes, the British loved jazz as well as blues and R&B. But they cannot lay claim to these genres.

who laid claim? I'm curious :))))
Blues and R&B may have African origins but they are considered American musical forms.

so who was the Brit or European musician who said he'd invented jazz or blues? :)
I think we're getting misunderstood in translation. I'm not aware of any Brits laying claim to jazz, blues and R&B. I only stated that they could not, even if they wanted to. Which they do not. Follow me?
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I didn't read every post on here so this may have been brought up but i think the reason is that the US has never been as hip as Europeans. The masses are not as sophisticated in the high arts and thus the complexities of fusing disparate genres of music hadn't caught on. The few bands that did make a mark often were imitating the greats of mostly England. There are the notable exceptions of course but while the UK may have been ground zero for prog, metal and countless other genres, the US was the cradle of jazz, R&B, ragtime and was where prog and metal found a happy life together, so in effect the US is a much younger nation and before the days of the internet, much of what was happening in Europe only trickled into the most dedicated seekers of extreme music. Nowadays, the floodgates are wide open.

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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


so who was the Brit or European musician who said he'd invented jazz or blues? :)
I think we're getting misunderstood in translation. I'm not aware of any Brits laying claim to jazz, blues and R&B. I only stated that they could not, even if they wanted to. Which they do not. Follow me?

I thought you were implying that there are Brits that boldly claim they are inventors of blues and jazz. Glad you made everything clear. :)


Edited by Cristi - June 04 2018 at 10:18
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@silLLy puPPy: I think that there's also a fundamental difference as to what each group felt as to what constituted progressive rock at that time. The US was more into avant-garde i.e. Zappa/Beefheart et al, while the British were heavily into orchestral/symphonic forms. The common factor seemed that both had elements of psych rock.

Edited by SteveG - June 04 2018 at 10:23
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@silLLy puPPy: I think that there's also a fundamental difference as to what each group felt as to what constituted progressive rock at that time. The US was more into avant-garde i.e. Zappa/Beefheart et al, while the British were heavily into orchestral/symphonic forms. The common factor seemed that both had elements of psych rock.


I'm not even sure about that: at their beginning, Pink Floyd was as avant-gardist as Zappa and the MOI (at least, on stage!), and I'm not sure that some American psychedelic bands such as Love wouldn't have developped in a style close to the sympho stuff.
That said, as it has already written higher in this thread, I guess that the English bands develop their own genre from their musical roots, such as the Spanish and the Italians did... Now, I wonder what the hell happened in Germany and France! Wacko
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Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@silLLy puPPy: I think that there's also a fundamental difference as to what each group felt as to what constituted progressive rock at that time. The US was more into avant-garde i.e. Zappa/Beefheart et al, while the British were heavily into orchestral/symphonic forms. The common factor seemed that both had elements of psych rock.


I'm not even sure about that: at their beginning, Pink Floyd was as avant-gardist as Zappa and the MOI (at least, on stage!), and I'm not sure that some American psychedelic bands such as Love wouldn't have developped in a style close to the sympho stuff.
That said, as it has already written higher in this thread, I guess that the English bands develop their own genre from their musical roots, such as the Spanish and the Italians did... Now, I wonder what the hell happened in Germany and France! Wacko
Yes, I agree about Floyd and Love but they were the exceptions. Floyd was pure space rock at their most creative but you have to look at the Moody Blues, Crimson, The Nice and others to see that the British trend was toward orchestral/symphonic. But let's look at this way, can you mentality distinguish British prog from American? I believe that most can and there is a reason for the difference.

Edited by SteveG - June 05 2018 at 07:52
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The Brits seemed to have had more formal musical education in their schools than we Yanks did.  At least, that seems to me to be how musicians such as Peter Gabriel and others were raised, learning keyboards, woodwinds, percussion etc. 

American teachers really didn't give a damn.  I was in our school band about age 10 to 12, playing trumpet, and we mostly played martial marching music and rubbish like that.  

The only classical music education I received was in school choir, which was a blessing in that I met other young people who ultimately were into prog and rock.  One of my chums introduced me to King Crimson when I was about 13 (1969).  

Not sure if the Brits have the same old traditions in their schooling, what with budget cuts etc., I bet they don't have the quality of schooling that they used to have.  Perhaps Steve could chime in from Lazland?  Cheers! 
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


^ Absolutely! If ever there was a question with dean's name written on it, this it!

Indeed. Is Deanlessness a word? I’m pretty sure it is.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@silLLy puPPy: I think that there's also a fundamental difference as to what each group felt as to what constituted progressive rock at that time. The US was more into avant-garde i.e. Zappa/Beefheart et al, while the British were heavily into orchestral/symphonic forms. The common factor seemed that both had elements of psych rock.

Could be. I've found that most people of that age group were into the melodic hard rock like Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin. You know. All the classics. Most Americans don't even know what prog is from that era i'd bet.

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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The Brits seemed to have had more formal musical education in their schools than we Yanks did.  At least, that seems to me to be how musicians such as Peter Gabriel and others were raised, learning keyboards, woodwinds, percussion etc. 

American teachers really didn't give a damn.  I was in our school band about age 10 to 12, playing trumpet, and we mostly played martial marching music and rubbish like that.  

The only classical music education I received was in school choir, which was a blessing in that I met other young people who ultimately were into prog and rock.  One of my chums introduced me to King Crimson when I was about 13 (1969).  

Not sure if the Brits have the same old traditions in their schooling, what with budget cuts etc., I bet they don't have the quality of schooling that they used to have.  Perhaps Steve could chime in from Lazland?  Cheers! 

I think it still comes down to whether you had private or state education; I was at a state (comprehensive) school in the mid 70's and we had no 'formal' music education at all although there was a down-trodden and well meaning music teacher.. but the lessons were chaos and we learned nothing. There was a small music room with a few battered instruments and this was where I first got my hands on a bass. But your parents had to pay if you wanted any kind of formal music tutoring and it was usually tailored towards the local town brass band. The kids I knew who were into interesting music and could actually play all went to the Grammar school or private school.. in fact nearly all the bands I got involved with were made up of kids who went to private schools with the odd scummy comprehensive kid for cred.. 

Both my kids (now grown up) were very musical and the local state school teachers did all they could to encourage and enable them to progress within whatever style they preferred with the limited funding that they had which was a hell of a lot more than I got when I was at school!

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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The Brits seemed to have had more formal musical education in their schools than we Yanks did.  At least, that seems to me to be how musicians such as Peter Gabriel and others were raised, learning keyboards, woodwinds, percussion etc. 

American teachers really didn't give a damn.  I was in our school band about age 10 to 12, playing trumpet, and we mostly played martial marching music and rubbish like that.  

The only classical music education I received was in school choir, which was a blessing in that I met other young people who ultimately were into prog and rock.  One of my chums introduced me to King Crimson when I was about 13 (1969).  

Not sure if the Brits have the same old traditions in their schooling, what with budget cuts etc., I bet they don't have the quality of schooling that they used to have.  Perhaps Steve could chime in from Lazland?  Cheers! 

I think it still comes down to whether you had private or state education; I was at a state (comprehensive) school in the mid 70's and we had no 'formal' music education at all although there was a down-trodden and well meaning music teacher.. but the lessons were chaos and we learned nothing. There was a small music room with a few battered instruments and this was where I first got my hands on a bass. But your parents had to pay if you wanted any kind of formal music tutoring and it was usually tailored towards the local town brass band. The kids I knew who were into interesting music and could actually play all went to the Grammar school or private school.. in fact nearly all the bands I got involved with were made up of kids who went to private schools with the odd scummy comprehensive kid for cred.. 

Both my kids (now grown up) were very musical and the local state school teachers did all they could to encourage and enable them to progress within whatever style they preferred with the limited funding that they had which was a hell of a lot more than I got when I was at school!

Excellent answer from the far side of the pond, thanks!  

I grew up in a solidly middle-class American neighborhood, and many of my chums had fairly nice guitars (Gibson SG mostly) and decent amps.  However, really talented players were few and far between, and even though I had minimal classical training, I evolved to be one of the better players.  

When lightning strikes....something happened in the UK that didn't in the US, and I'm still not sure of what it was.  We certainly did lead the world in rhythm & blues/Motown for sure, another one of my favorite musical idioms!  Cheers, mate! 
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
When lightning strikes....something happened in the UK that didn't in the US, and I'm still not sure of what it was.  We certainly did lead the world in rhythm & blues/Motown for sure, another one of my favorite musical idioms!  Cheers, mate! 


I don't think, for one second, that the USA did not have anything at all ... there was a heck of a lot ... 

People's Fair ... near Stevens Point /// June 26/27 and 28 in 1968. (I think it was '68)

Buddy Rich, Taj Mahal, Ravi Shankar, Buffy St. Marie, Paul Butterfield, Terry Reid, Steve Miller, Amboy Dukes, Chuck Berry, Seigel-Schwal Band, SRC, Crow, Mason Profit (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), Morgan, Bloosmbury People, Tayles, Soup, Browsuilk Station, Sugar Loaf, Tongue, Bowery Boys and many more it says ... 

I only remember half of these!

The real issue is that London, specially, had a press to discuss these things, and the USA did not. There was no periodical in Madison that alerted this to us, and I stole one of the posters so I would not miss it and not get there, or buy a ticket.

All in all, I knew quite a few of these, even though they got no air play at all ... but Madison, was much hipper than Chicago in those days, and at least guns were not used on a certain group of people and on the crowds on the street for a concert! Which, no doubt would take your attention away from music anyway ... except for me the unforgivable ... Sly and the Family Stone did not show up on this crowd and it almost turned into a riot when the police showed up armed to the teeth and the balls.

Your romantic and political notions take a huge hit ... and London, while not the nicest place of all, at the very least, had some decency and respect for some of the arts, rock music included, something that America's media made a serious point of trashing because they all looked dirty and ugly!

The spirit of the music, is magnificent and valuable ... and to me, things like Chicago 1 and Chicago 2 are the perfect example of the time and place and lots of psychedelics were not necessary ... while in London the highest fashion and richest folks were flaunting their ability to get stoned and not give a sh*t about anything.

I'm sorry ... I find the comment scary and perhaps lacking clarity. Sons of Champlin were not exactly street kids doing Motown, either! And black players always had a home in Madison's clubs. A very progressive and far out place at the time, until the Kent State shootings when the ROTC and the National Guard, encircled the campus and frisked everyone, to make sure that the breasts were real under the clothing.

That's progressive for you! I'm sure London had it much easier than the really bad stuff that some cops did (IRA not included) in a couple of American cities took the liberty to destroy a scene and the music. It pretty much only continued in a couple of places (East and West) and the middle of the country? Forgot it every happened! And they still talk like it didn't, including the VietNam War.

Sorry ... soapbox fell apart, finally! Confused
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
When lightning strikes....something happened in the UK that didn't in the US, and I'm still not sure of what it was.  We certainly did lead the world in rhythm & blues/Motown for sure, another one of my favorite musical idioms!  Cheers, mate! 


I don't think, for one second, that the USA did not have anything at all ... there was a heck of a lot ... 

Sorry ... soapbox fell apart, finally! Confused

Well done, Moshkito! Thumbs Up

Of course, we had our moments over here...Woodstock being one of the more progressive moments in US rock history IMHO. 

However, the majority of instrumental talent in the idiom we call "prog" seems to be UK centered.  John McLaughlin?  Steve Howe?  Rick Wakeman?  Keith Emerson?  Robert Fripp? 

The States had talented folks, but it is hard for me to identify players of this quality in the USA in the late 1960s to early 1970s.  

Your point about the music press is well taken, our press in Chicago was mostly underground....the Chicago Seed, TRIAD radio and a few more come to mind.  Madison WI was a totally different world (I love the place!), and it didn't really seem to have a national influence from what I remember. 

Here's a bit of nostalgia about the late, great TRIAD radio, I encourage all PA readers to glance at this!  TRIAD was our source for European prog, Krautrock, space-rock etc. in the early 1970s.  


 In 1970, WXFM became the home of “Triad Radio,” a show that had originated on WEAW-FM in Evanston and featured a free-form album rock format. The show's irreverence and wide variety of musical styles would draw attention and listeners; introducing young Chicago ears to many new and unique bands. Hosted by the very hippish Saul Smaizys, Triad would gain cult status as the epitome of non-conformist radio. During late nights, Ron Ray hosted classical music before having to run over to his day job at WNIB. Stereo facilities were added in 1971 that added to Triad's popularity.

Throughout the 1970s, WXFM continued to offer a diverse selection of programs as well as being one of the last major Chicago FM stations to offer brokering. However, changing demographics would also affect WXFM. The rise of album rock radio in the mid-70s would drive Triad from the airwaves in 1977, and the station began to cater towards blues and jazz listeners.



Edited by cstack3 - June 08 2018 at 10:59
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The Brits seemed to have had more formal musical education in their schools than we Yanks did.  At least, that seems to me to be how musicians such as Peter Gabriel and others were raised, learning keyboards, woodwinds, percussion etc. 

American teachers really didn't give a damn.  I was in our school band about age 10 to 12, playing trumpet, and we mostly played martial marching music and rubbish like that.  

The only classical music education I received was in school choir, which was a blessing in that I met other young people who ultimately were into prog and rock.  One of my chums introduced me to King Crimson when I was about 13 (1969).  

Not sure if the Brits have the same old traditions in their schooling, what with budget cuts etc., I bet they don't have the quality of schooling that they used to have.  Perhaps Steve could chime in from Lazland?  Cheers! 

I think it still comes down to whether you had private or state education; I was at a state (comprehensive) school in the mid 70's and we had no 'formal' music education at all although there was a down-trodden and well meaning music teacher.. but the lessons were chaos and we learned nothing. There was a small music room with a few battered instruments and this was where I first got my hands on a bass. But your parents had to pay if you wanted any kind of formal music tutoring and it was usually tailored towards the local town brass band. The kids I knew who were into interesting music and could actually play all went to the Grammar school or private school.. in fact nearly all the bands I got involved with were made up of kids who went to private schools with the odd scummy comprehensive kid for cred.. 

Both my kids (now grown up) were very musical and the local state school teachers did all they could to encourage and enable them to progress within whatever style they preferred with the limited funding that they had which was a hell of a lot more than I got when I was at school!

Excellent answer from the far side of the pond, thanks!  

I grew up in a solidly middle-class American neighborhood, and many of my chums had fairly nice guitars (Gibson SG mostly) and decent amps.  However, really talented players were few and far between, and even though I had minimal classical training, I evolved to be one of the better players.  

When lightning strikes....something happened in the UK that didn't in the US, and I'm still not sure of what it was.  We certainly did lead the world in rhythm & blues/Motown for sure, another one of my favorite musical idioms!  Cheers, mate! 


I'm sure I'll get shot down but my view on the main reasons that the UK produced the music it did in the late 60's was a mixture of the rise of aggressive, adventurous and entrepreneurial managers, the 'London scene' and Art school. Add 'some' better educated and financially backed musicians (by parents usually) and record labels prepared to stick their necks out (then jump on the gravy train) picking up on whats happening. This attracted a lot of talented musicians of all social and financial strata from all over the country into the capital. The more I hear music from other countries the more I realise that Britain doesn't have a monopoly; the development of progressive music happened world-wide; perhaps the UK just had the economic status and (supposed) power of the media to project this around the world. 

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Points: 4794 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Squonk19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2018 at 18:12
^ After reading Richard MacPhail's 'My Book of Genesis' - I think your view of the late 60s rise of rock in the UK is as good a summary as I've come across.
“Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”
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