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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 06 2021 at 11:32
What are some bands or artists that you have noticed are considered to be some form of prog on here(for the purposes of this thread let's say anything other than post rock, fusion, psych and electronic) but are not typically considered prog on other sites such as all music, wikipedia etc. I have come across three in particular and they are:

1. Oingo Boingo
2. Tori Amos
3. Robert Plant

There's also Led Zeppelin, the Who and Black Sabbath and probably a few other classic kinds of bands but those are either proto prog or prog related so I won't count them. 

Also, this is not meant to criticize Progarchives way of doing things or their categorization. I just find it interesting that some bands are labelled that way here but typically not in other places. If anything it means that PA are in some ways more open minded than standard music sites. 
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I think it’s definitely the other way around. I know far more bands and artists that are considered prog EXCEPT in PA. All three names you mention are considered prog by many outside PA. 

All three have featured in Prog magazine. I have seen videos from all three posted on various prog pages on FB.

Tori Amos for the longest time was described as “the Kate Bush of the US” which is pretty telling, as most people consider Kate Bush prog.

Not really sure where you’re going with this. As far as I’m aware one of the pre-requisites for being included on this site are being acknowledged/recognised as prog. But that’s not enough for inclusion here, which is why there are bands and artists widely acknowledged/recognised as prog, but who are not prog “enough” for PA.

(For example, Warmrain has been submitted for inclusion by someone recently, and I suspect they will be rejected as “not prog enough” - despite being featured a few times in Prog magazine, and playing the UK prog festival circuit.)
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Points: 19334 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2021 at 12:15
Really? I don't think I've ever seen any of them mentiond as prog except on PA. I think a long time ago I saw Oingo Boingo mentioned as prog by one guy but that's it. Now Kate Bush on the other hand......


As for "where I'm gong with this" as I stated I wanted to see what other bands or artists people have noticed as being prog pretty much only on here. If you don't agree then that's fine. There are plenty of other threads to follow on here. Wink


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 06 2021 at 12:17
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I was going to say Miles Davis, but that would've been too obvious. Smile
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I was going to say Miles Davis, but that would've been too obvious. Smile

LOL
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Tough Topic.
 
I've seen so many bands rejected here that I consider prog and so many bands that have surprised me for their inclusion. I do feel that there may be a subtle or unspoken (unconscious?) bias in favor of 1970s bands and against 21st Century bands. 

Interesting to see what discussion this topic might generate....
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Definitely agree that there are a lot of bands considered prog everywhere EXCEPT PA, rather than the other way around. 

That being said, there's a handful. Most notably, there's quite a few artists under either jazz fusion, post-rock/math rock, or post-metal that not many people outside PA would think of as prog, but are included here due to those genres being considered as extensions of progressive rock. Examples include:

Jazz Fusion:
-Herbie Hancock
-Jean-Luc Ponty
-Miles Davis
-Santana
-Steely Dan

Post-rock/Math rock/Post-Metal:
-Agalloch
-Bark Psychosis
-Battles
-Godspeed You! Black Emperor
-No-Man (Psych/Space Rock on PA, but classified elsewhere as post-rock/art rock)
-Sigur Rós
-Tortoise
-Swans
-Ulver

There's also a few of bands in other genres that are usually thought of as experimental or art rock and get tossed in here, usually under Crossover, but not always:
-Björk
-Dead Can Dance (Prog Folk on PA)
-Deerhoof
-Dirty Projectors
-Nine Inch Nails
-Radiohead

It's worth noting that I also considered a lot of these artists prog; they just aren't usually thought of as such outside of PA.


Edited by tempest_77 - June 06 2021 at 17:47
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I'm pretty sure Al Stewart had a good writeup in a prog magazine in the last few years, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they considered him prog, just that there are aspects of his work that would be appealing to a lot of prog fans.  There are probably other examples.  Just for the record, he was proposed for prog related a few years ago at the same time as Shawn Philips;  Philips got in and Stewart did not.
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A good reference is Rate Your Music.

They call Kate Bush progressive pop (among other genres).

https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/kate-bush

Whereas Tori Amos is called, variously, Art Rock, Piano Rock, Alternative Rock, Classical Crossover.

https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/tori_amos

I think this is in line with general perceptions of how her music should be classified.  I don't think Kate Bush fans in general would be surprised to know she has a home on PA but Tori Amos fans would be flummoxed to learn she is prog. I don't know what I am missing and I am a fan myself.
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Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:


-Steely Dan
 
-Nine Inch Nails

I think these two are those I was most surprised about. I'm not disputing their progressivity and quality, and neither do I personally have an issue with them to be here, but their general style in my view deviates strongly from what prog means to most people. NIN may have the odd album that can just about qualify, fair enough, but if they are here, Einstuerzende Neubauten should be here a hundred times. (I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.) Steely Dan, honestly, to me seems to have been lobbied in by some passionate fans who they surely deserve, and well done to them, but if that's prog, the number of listed bands here would need to be multiplied by 2 at the very least.

My take on this is that there are some bands/artists that are "progressive in some sense, quite good, but not really prog" that are included on a random basis, with 5 kept out for each one that makes it in.


Edited by Lewian - June 07 2021 at 07:32
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Steely Dan is one of the bands I most wondered about. Another one are Jeronimo who are the German answer to Creedence Clearwater Revival; the two bands even made an album together.


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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

(I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.)
 
I don't think it should be, because "is proggier than" is a transitive relation.
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

(I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.)
 
I don't think it should be, because "is proggier than" is a transitive relation.
 
 

it's comparative of superiority LOL
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Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

Definitely agree that there are a lot of bands considered prog everywhere EXCEPT PA, rather than the other way around. 

That being said, there's a handful. Most notably, there's quite a few artists under either jazz fusion, post-rock/math rock, or post-metal that not many people outside PA would think of as prog, but are included here due to those genres being considered as extensions of progressive rock. Examples include:

Jazz Fusion:
-Herbie Hancock
-Jean-Luc Ponty
-Miles Davis
-Santana
-Steely Dan

Post-rock/Math rock/Post-Metal:
-Agalloch
-Bark Psychosis
-Battles
-Godspeed You! Black Emperor
-No-Man (Psych/Space Rock on PA, but classified elsewhere as post-rock/art rock)
-Sigur Rós
-Tortoise
-Swans
-Ulver

There's also a few of bands in other genres that are usually thought of as experimental or art rock and get tossed in here, usually under Crossover, but not always:
-Björk
-Dead Can Dance (Prog Folk on PA)
-Deerhoof
-Dirty Projectors
-Nine Inch Nails
-Radiohead

It's worth noting that I also considered a lot of these artists prog; they just aren't usually thought of as such outside of PA.

This pretty much.

This is why I don't understand why they will vehemently deny something like Boston (very similar to Asia) even as prog-related, but they will include as prog hundreds of artists who nobody would ever consider prog. Miles Davis, NiN, Steely Dan (?), Agalloch, Sigur Ros, etc. I think you can ask anyone about them and I'm pretty sure not one person will say "Oh, yes, that prog rock band" LOL as they would with Yes, ELP, Crimson, etc. 
I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place
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it might be a generational thing, maybe? Older prog fans who think of prog more in symphonic terms are surprised to think that anyone might consider bands like NIN and Sigur Rós are considered prog, but younger prog fans just accept it. It never occurred to me that people might not consider many of the bands listed. To use just NIN and Sigur Rós as examples, their albums have been routinely reviewed by prog websites and prog FB pages, and featured in prog blogs and mags.

Obviously, there will be older prog fans who are more accepting of bands like NIN and Sigur Rós being prog; and younger fans for whom this seems odd - but broadly speaking, and making the kind of generalisations that are bound to get me in trouble, I think the younger generations are able to recognise prog across a far wider spectrum than older fans who, if not stuck in the past, still stick to the more classic, symphonic sounds.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:


I think these two are those I was most surprised about. I'm not disputing their progressivity and quality, and neither do I personally have an issue with them to be here, but their general style in my view deviates strongly from what prog means to most people. NIN may have the odd album that can just about qualify, fair enough, but if they are here, Einstuerzende Neubauten should be here a hundred times. (I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.) Steely Dan, honestly, to me seems to have been lobbied in by some passionate fans who they surely deserve, and well done to them, but if that's prog, the number of listed bands here would need to be multiplied by 2 at the very least.

My take on this is that there are some bands/artists that are "progressive in some sense, quite good, but not really prog" that are included on a random basis, with 5 kept out for each one that makes it in.


The Steely Dan addition was one of the nastiest episodes in the history of PA. The discussion descended into outright personal attacks, and I can tell you that Micky (who was on the receiving end of much of that nastiness) lost most of his motivation for working on behalf of the site after that.

That's also the reason why I tend to dislike such threads - no matter how well-intentioned they are. I believe most of us who have been PA members for years have had our suggestions shot down, and find it hard not to "compare and contrast" the bands/artists who are there and those who are not. Personally speaking, though I am more on the side of "older" than of "younger", I have a very broad view of what constitutes progressive music (I am not a fan of that "prog" word).
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Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

Definitely agree that there are a lot of bands considered prog everywhere EXCEPT PA, rather than the other way around. 

That being said, there's a handful. Most notably, there's quite a few artists under either jazz fusion, post-rock/math rock, or post-metal that not many people outside PA would think of as prog, but are included here due to those genres being considered as extensions of progressive rock. Examples include:

Jazz Fusion:
-Herbie Hancock
-Jean-Luc Ponty
-Miles Davis
-Santana
-Steely Dan

Post-rock/Math rock/Post-Metal:
-Agalloch
-Bark Psychosis
-Battles
-Godspeed You! Black Emperor
-No-Man (Psych/Space Rock on PA, but classified elsewhere as post-rock/art rock)
-Sigur Rós
-Tortoise
-Swans
-Ulver

There's also a few of bands in other genres that are usually thought of as experimental or art rock and get tossed in here, usually under Crossover, but not always:
-Björk
-Dead Can Dance (Prog Folk on PA)
-Deerhoof
-Dirty Projectors
-Nine Inch Nails
-Radiohead

It's worth noting that I also considered a lot of these artists prog; they just aren't usually thought of as such outside of PA.
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Nine Inch Nails is a good example. I think Steely Dan are listed as jazz rock/fusion on here. I suppose that's as good as any for them. Chicago and Santana are also listed here as jr/f. 

Also, Traffic are listed as eclectic prog on here. Sometimes they are considered prog by general music sources but not always especially not compared to KC, Yes, Genesis, etc. Frank Zappa is another one. 
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

it might be a generational thing, maybe? Older prog fans who think of prog more in symphonic terms are surprised to think that anyone might consider bands like NIN and Sigur Rós are considered prog, but younger prog fans just accept it. It never occurred to me that people might not consider many of the bands listed. To use just NIN and Sigur Rós as examples, their albums have been routinely reviewed by prog websites and prog FB pages, and featured in prog blogs and mags.

Obviously, there will be older prog fans who are more accepting of bands like NIN and Sigur Rós being prog; and younger fans for whom this seems odd - but broadly speaking, and making the kind of generalisations that are bound to get me in trouble, I think the younger generations are able to recognise prog across a far wider spectrum than older fans who, if not stuck in the past, still stick to the more classic, symphonic sounds.


I'm not really against NIN being considered prog(same thing with SR) but my main problem is this. If you have NIN as prog then it starts this whole big snowball thing where then you have to include Phish, Tool, Radiohead, Muse, Coheed and Cambria and on and on.Most of those bands are on here anyway actually. However, my point is you have to draw the line somewhere. IMO, NIN are more like industrial and not prog. However, I'm sure there's a good reason they are on here and not Skinny Puppy or Ministry and so I won't argue about it. It's just that based on what I've heard by them I wouldn't consider them prog. Maybe I need to hear more. Who knows.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 07 2021 at 12:44
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