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Artists considered prog on here but not elsewhere

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 14:00
^ Well, not to be argumentative or anything but neither allmusic, rate your music or wikipedia consider them prog(progressive rock or any kind of prog) so I'm wondering who you are referring to when you say they are widely considered to be a prog band(besides PA that is). 

For the record, the only ones I own and have heard by NIN are downward spiral(which is ok) and Year Zero (which is pretty awful). I'm sure they are good at what they do but based on what I've heard I have to say I don't think NIN are for me. Also, keep in mind I'm not someone who thinks all music I like is prog and vice versa. If I like it then I like it regardless of the genre. I'm willing to give most stuff a fair chance but realistically we aren't going to like everything. Also, not every inventive or even progressive band can be considered prog rock or prog(since there's a difference between being progressive and being prog rock). If they follow the prog formula or structure on later albums then fine but I'm still skeptical about them being considered prog on here especially when collaborators have said that just having a few prog albums doesn't make someone a prog band. There's been debates about whether Muse are prog also and probably a bunch of other bands. Obviously we all have our own opinions and I'm sure there was much back and forth discussion(and arguments) before they decided to include NIN on here(much like with SD) . 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 07 2021 at 14:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 13:47
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

[QUOTE=nick_h_nz]I'm not really against NIN being considered prog(same thing with SR) but my main problem is this. If you have NIN as prog then it starts this whole big snowball thing where then you have to include Phish, Tool, Radiohead, Muse, Coheed and Cambria and on and on.Most of those bands are on here anyway actually. However, my point is you have to draw the line somewhere. IMO, NIN are more like industrial and not prog. However, I'm sure there's a good reason they are on here and not Skinny Puppy or Ministry and so I won't argue about it. It's just that based on what I've heard by them I wouldn't consider them prog. Maybe I need to hear more. Who knows.

That tends to be the problem most of the time with most of the artists that people either complain about being here, or have no problem with them being here, but don’t understand why. It all boils down to not having heard what makes the artist prog. But at least you can admit that you are basing your opinion on what you’ve listened to, and that you may need to hear more.

NIN certainly began as a fairly generic industrial band that was so clearly influenced by Skinny Puppy they were criticised for being derivative. But album after album, Trent changed the sound of NIN to become increasingly more prog. His use of musicians such as Mike Garson and Adrian Belew added quite interesting elements to his music that weren’t normal for industrial. If you can talk about metal and prog metal, folk and prog folk, then you can talk about industrial and prog industrial. But Trent continued to evolve his sound, and there are NIN albums that many old school NIN fans hate, because they are so different from the original sound. There have now been six chapters of NIN’s ambient Ghosts series, and my personal favourite NIN release (Bad Witch) is all over the place, with some wonderful sax playing from Trent. The music is so much more than industrial now, and has been for years.

But, potentially, you might still not hear anything that you consider prog - and that’s fine, too. Everyone has their own definition and idea of what is prog and what is not. But NIN is pretty widely considered a prog band, and definitely beyond the confines of PA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Artik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 13:44
I'm a man of science and I like when words are ment to mean something. PA standards just dilute the water. If Swans, Tori Amos, Dead Can Dance, Nine Inch Nails are prog, then this word doesn't mean anything. And I say it as a great fan of most of the abovementioned. But, it's only my humble opinion and it doesn't spoil the enjoyment I take from visiting PA frequently.

Edited by Artik - June 07 2021 at 13:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 13:00
Hi,

Hard to agree or disagree with anything here.

Until the day that "progressive music" and then "prog music" get properly defined for the music ... NOT THE SOUND ... I'm not sure that every site out there will agree on anything, and some of them were probably created as a reaction to some other site.

My main concern is that the definitions out there (and here) are so out of touch with MUSIC itself, as to make things confusing and difficult. And when someone simply factors in a blue guitar or a swinging organ, and complete ignores the music that is played through those, I'm not sure that we can decide on anything except disagreement.

The main issue still will remain ... the fans and social media addicts thinking that they know it better than the actual musician that created and played the darn thing ... and as I said before that is a total disrespect for the artist, and the same goes for the soccer fans (from one country at least) booing and throwing debris at an opposing team, which is a gross disrespect for the game and how it was played!

What scares me the most is a society of those "who have it" and those "who don't", and of course, the ones that "don't" are the ones that pay large amounts of money to see a game, or a show somewhere. And they show their disagreement and voice their lack of judgement on the field with throwing debris, and then taking to social media to speak their views.

My only hope is that PA does not succumb to the "social media" frenzy. Already many folks here do not reply to the thread at all, and make personal comments. It's not quite water on the duck's back. For me it is more like Hemingway's line ... "dirt belongs under my feet." For this reason I do not reply to many of those comments and do not involve myself in the social media vacuum!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 12:42
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

it might be a generational thing, maybe? Older prog fans who think of prog more in symphonic terms are surprised to think that anyone might consider bands like NIN and Sigur Rós are considered prog, but younger prog fans just accept it. It never occurred to me that people might not consider many of the bands listed. To use just NIN and Sigur Rós as examples, their albums have been routinely reviewed by prog websites and prog FB pages, and featured in prog blogs and mags.

Obviously, there will be older prog fans who are more accepting of bands like NIN and Sigur Rós being prog; and younger fans for whom this seems odd - but broadly speaking, and making the kind of generalisations that are bound to get me in trouble, I think the younger generations are able to recognise prog across a far wider spectrum than older fans who, if not stuck in the past, still stick to the more classic, symphonic sounds.


I'm not really against NIN being considered prog(same thing with SR) but my main problem is this. If you have NIN as prog then it starts this whole big snowball thing where then you have to include Phish, Tool, Radiohead, Muse, Coheed and Cambria and on and on.Most of those bands are on here anyway actually. However, my point is you have to draw the line somewhere. IMO, NIN are more like industrial and not prog. However, I'm sure there's a good reason they are on here and not Skinny Puppy or Ministry and so I won't argue about it. It's just that based on what I've heard by them I wouldn't consider them prog. Maybe I need to hear more. Who knows.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 07 2021 at 12:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 12:36
Nine Inch Nails is a good example. I think Steely Dan are listed as jazz rock/fusion on here. I suppose that's as good as any for them. Chicago and Santana are also listed here as jr/f. 

Also, Traffic are listed as eclectic prog on here. Sometimes they are considered prog by general music sources but not always especially not compared to KC, Yes, Genesis, etc. Frank Zappa is another one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 12:24
Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

Definitely agree that there are a lot of bands considered prog everywhere EXCEPT PA, rather than the other way around. 

That being said, there's a handful. Most notably, there's quite a few artists under either jazz fusion, post-rock/math rock, or post-metal that not many people outside PA would think of as prog, but are included here due to those genres being considered as extensions of progressive rock. Examples include:

Jazz Fusion:
-Herbie Hancock
-Jean-Luc Ponty
-Miles Davis
-Santana
-Steely Dan

Post-rock/Math rock/Post-Metal:
-Agalloch
-Bark Psychosis
-Battles
-Godspeed You! Black Emperor
-No-Man (Psych/Space Rock on PA, but classified elsewhere as post-rock/art rock)
-Sigur Rós
-Tortoise
-Swans
-Ulver

There's also a few of bands in other genres that are usually thought of as experimental or art rock and get tossed in here, usually under Crossover, but not always:
-Björk
-Dead Can Dance (Prog Folk on PA)
-Deerhoof
-Dirty Projectors
-Nine Inch Nails
-Radiohead

It's worth noting that I also considered a lot of these artists prog; they just aren't usually thought of as such outside of PA.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 12:23
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:


I think these two are those I was most surprised about. I'm not disputing their progressivity and quality, and neither do I personally have an issue with them to be here, but their general style in my view deviates strongly from what prog means to most people. NIN may have the odd album that can just about qualify, fair enough, but if they are here, Einstuerzende Neubauten should be here a hundred times. (I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.) Steely Dan, honestly, to me seems to have been lobbied in by some passionate fans who they surely deserve, and well done to them, but if that's prog, the number of listed bands here would need to be multiplied by 2 at the very least.

My take on this is that there are some bands/artists that are "progressive in some sense, quite good, but not really prog" that are included on a random basis, with 5 kept out for each one that makes it in.


The Steely Dan addition was one of the nastiest episodes in the history of PA. The discussion descended into outright personal attacks, and I can tell you that Micky (who was on the receiving end of much of that nastiness) lost most of his motivation for working on behalf of the site after that.

That's also the reason why I tend to dislike such threads - no matter how well-intentioned they are. I believe most of us who have been PA members for years have had our suggestions shot down, and find it hard not to "compare and contrast" the bands/artists who are there and those who are not. Personally speaking, though I am more on the side of "older" than of "younger", I have a very broad view of what constitutes progressive music (I am not a fan of that "prog" word).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 07:54
it might be a generational thing, maybe? Older prog fans who think of prog more in symphonic terms are surprised to think that anyone might consider bands like NIN and Sigur Rós are considered prog, but younger prog fans just accept it. It never occurred to me that people might not consider many of the bands listed. To use just NIN and Sigur Rós as examples, their albums have been routinely reviewed by prog websites and prog FB pages, and featured in prog blogs and mags.

Obviously, there will be older prog fans who are more accepting of bands like NIN and Sigur Rós being prog; and younger fans for whom this seems odd - but broadly speaking, and making the kind of generalisations that are bound to get me in trouble, I think the younger generations are able to recognise prog across a far wider spectrum than older fans who, if not stuck in the past, still stick to the more classic, symphonic sounds.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 07:24
Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

Definitely agree that there are a lot of bands considered prog everywhere EXCEPT PA, rather than the other way around. 

That being said, there's a handful. Most notably, there's quite a few artists under either jazz fusion, post-rock/math rock, or post-metal that not many people outside PA would think of as prog, but are included here due to those genres being considered as extensions of progressive rock. Examples include:

Jazz Fusion:
-Herbie Hancock
-Jean-Luc Ponty
-Miles Davis
-Santana
-Steely Dan

Post-rock/Math rock/Post-Metal:
-Agalloch
-Bark Psychosis
-Battles
-Godspeed You! Black Emperor
-No-Man (Psych/Space Rock on PA, but classified elsewhere as post-rock/art rock)
-Sigur Rós
-Tortoise
-Swans
-Ulver

There's also a few of bands in other genres that are usually thought of as experimental or art rock and get tossed in here, usually under Crossover, but not always:
-Björk
-Dead Can Dance (Prog Folk on PA)
-Deerhoof
-Dirty Projectors
-Nine Inch Nails
-Radiohead

It's worth noting that I also considered a lot of these artists prog; they just aren't usually thought of as such outside of PA.

This pretty much.

This is why I don't understand why they will vehemently deny something like Boston (very similar to Asia) even as prog-related, but they will include as prog hundreds of artists who nobody would ever consider prog. Miles Davis, NiN, Steely Dan (?), Agalloch, Sigur Ros, etc. I think you can ask anyone about them and I'm pretty sure not one person will say "Oh, yes, that prog rock band" LOL as they would with Yes, ELP, Crimson, etc. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 06:32
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

(I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.)
 
I don't think it should be, because "is proggier than" is a transitive relation.
 
 

it's comparative of superiority LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 06:24
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

(I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.)
 
I don't think it should be, because "is proggier than" is a transitive relation.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 05:55
Steely Dan is one of the bands I most wondered about. Another one are Jeronimo who are the German answer to Creedence Clearwater Revival; the two bands even made an album together.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 04:11
Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:


-Steely Dan
 
-Nine Inch Nails

I think these two are those I was most surprised about. I'm not disputing their progressivity and quality, and neither do I personally have an issue with them to be here, but their general style in my view deviates strongly from what prog means to most people. NIN may have the odd album that can just about qualify, fair enough, but if they are here, Einstuerzende Neubauten should be here a hundred times. (I'm well aware that this kind of argument is forbidden, but still.) Steely Dan, honestly, to me seems to have been lobbied in by some passionate fans who they surely deserve, and well done to them, but if that's prog, the number of listed bands here would need to be multiplied by 2 at the very least.

My take on this is that there are some bands/artists that are "progressive in some sense, quite good, but not really prog" that are included on a random basis, with 5 kept out for each one that makes it in.


Edited by Lewian - June 07 2021 at 07:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 02:04
A good reference is Rate Your Music.

They call Kate Bush progressive pop (among other genres).

https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/kate-bush

Whereas Tori Amos is called, variously, Art Rock, Piano Rock, Alternative Rock, Classical Crossover.

https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/tori_amos

I think this is in line with general perceptions of how her music should be classified.  I don't think Kate Bush fans in general would be surprised to know she has a home on PA but Tori Amos fans would be flummoxed to learn she is prog. I don't know what I am missing and I am a fan myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2021 at 19:48
I'm pretty sure Al Stewart had a good writeup in a prog magazine in the last few years, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they considered him prog, just that there are aspects of his work that would be appealing to a lot of prog fans.  There are probably other examples.  Just for the record, he was proposed for prog related a few years ago at the same time as Shawn Philips;  Philips got in and Stewart did not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2021 at 19:02
The truth is the opposite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2021 at 17:46
Definitely agree that there are a lot of bands considered prog everywhere EXCEPT PA, rather than the other way around. 

That being said, there's a handful. Most notably, there's quite a few artists under either jazz fusion, post-rock/math rock, or post-metal that not many people outside PA would think of as prog, but are included here due to those genres being considered as extensions of progressive rock. Examples include:

Jazz Fusion:
-Herbie Hancock
-Jean-Luc Ponty
-Miles Davis
-Santana
-Steely Dan

Post-rock/Math rock/Post-Metal:
-Agalloch
-Bark Psychosis
-Battles
-Godspeed You! Black Emperor
-No-Man (Psych/Space Rock on PA, but classified elsewhere as post-rock/art rock)
-Sigur Rós
-Tortoise
-Swans
-Ulver

There's also a few of bands in other genres that are usually thought of as experimental or art rock and get tossed in here, usually under Crossover, but not always:
-Björk
-Dead Can Dance (Prog Folk on PA)
-Deerhoof
-Dirty Projectors
-Nine Inch Nails
-Radiohead

It's worth noting that I also considered a lot of these artists prog; they just aren't usually thought of as such outside of PA.


Edited by tempest_77 - June 06 2021 at 17:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2021 at 14:05
Tough Topic.
 
I've seen so many bands rejected here that I consider prog and so many bands that have surprised me for their inclusion. I do feel that there may be a subtle or unspoken (unconscious?) bias in favor of 1970s bands and against 21st Century bands. 

Interesting to see what discussion this topic might generate....



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2021 at 13:14
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I was going to say Miles Davis, but that would've been too obvious. Smile

LOL
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