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Artists considered prog on here but not elsewhere

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2021 at 02:58
Its an unfortunate feature of the website, a shame really, but so it goes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2021 at 02:26
Originally posted by Artik Artik wrote:

I'm a man of science and I like when words are ment to mean something. PA standards just dilute the water. If Swans, Tori Amos, Dead Can Dance, Nine Inch Nails are prog, then this word doesn't mean anything. And I say it as a great fan of most of the abovementioned. But, it's only my humble opinion and it doesn't spoil the enjoyment I take from visiting PA frequently.



Not an unreasonable point of view certainly but just in. Newsflash: music ain't a science Shocked


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2021 at 01:10
Ae would definitely still have this problem, and if anything it would be worse and more divisive. Take Genesis for an obvious example. Most people here will acknowledge that Genesis were a prog group. But which was their last prog album? 😜

Depending on the individual the last album that was prog is anywhere from Lamb to the claim that there is not a single Genesis album that is not prog.

When it comes to albums described as prog before prog is widely recognised as being a thing, there will always be arguments, too. But assuming that prog means progressive (and on this forum that is a mighty big assumption, but let’s run with it), then A Kind of Blue is inarguably a prog album. It just doesn’t seem so by today’s standard. But at the time, it was revolutionary - and more so than a lot of prog albums. As much as people don’t like Pedro, he is correct when he bemoans people not understanding how a piece of music was received at the time.

It’s similar to the sort of arguments I used to hear at school, where people were trying to differentiate between metal and heavy metal, and saying that bands like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden were not heavy metal because there is nothing heavy about them. They were just metal, or maybe hard rock. To those people heavy metal was Metallica and Megadeth. But Black Sabbath at the time we’re probably just as heavy as Metallica were to those arguing in the schoolyard. One needs to take into account how something sounded contemporaneously.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluvmarillion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2021 at 00:59
We wouldn't have this problem if we had prog albums rather than prog artists. It's been explained to me before why we can't do that because it's too difficult and I accept that. However we have albums on this site that shouldn't even be reviewed, not because they're not bad but because they're not prog. The star system is the best way of dealing with the problem because albums are graded upwards or downwards depending on their degree of proginess. However it escapes me why Kind Of Blue is rated so highly, not because it's not a great album, but because I don't see a lot of proginess in it. Other Miles Davis albums are more proggy.

Edited by iluvmarillion - June 08 2021 at 01:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2021 at 00:51
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:


I'm 29 and I don't see those bands as prog, NiN is industrial rock and Sigur Ros post rock. You can ask fans of those bands and they might not be into prog at all. And they will hardly mention prog if you ask the genre of music they make. I think stuff like Supertramp, Moody Blues, Radiohead, early Queen, etc, might be debated or fall into "crossover" prog, but those artists are simply a different genre.

 

NIN has gone beyond industrial, they did ambient/electronic, atmospheric music, I don't mind them being here on PA.

As for Sigur Ros, post rock is a prog subgenre, isn't it? No problem for them being on PA or being considered a prog band. What am I missing here? Confused

Just the usual boring old argument about what is or isn’t prog. As usual people going for the anecdotal “no one I know” argument to “prove” something isn’t prog. Or the “most people that listen to it wouldn’t think it were prog” as “evidence” something isn’t prog. It’s all quite laughable. Not because people get so hung up on what they think is or isn’t prog, but because in this instance it is about something on PA not being prog.

As far as I’m aware, a band still has to be recognised and acknowledged as being prog outside PA for inclusion in the archives. Not only that, but they have to be “prog enough” to be included in the archives, which is why the opposite of the OP is the truth - there are many bands recognised as prog that are not in PA. I very much doubt there are any bands in PA that are NOT recognised as prog outside the archive - despite what any one individual thinks.

It’s irrelevant if a large chunk of their fans have never thought of the band or artist as prog. I as listening to prog music for years before knowing it was recognised as prog music. You most definitely don’t need to know something is prog to enjoy the music and be a fan.

But, and I will keep going back to NIN and Sigur Rós, because they keep getting brought up, it is easy to see that they are recognised as being prog. Both have featured in Prog magazine, and though someone earlier mentioned that being in Prog doesn’t mean they are prog, that’s splitting hairs. Prog magazine has always featured bands that are on the edges of prog, but has also always acknowledged that (“it’s prog, Jim, but not as we know it”, etc.), so the argument that just because NIN and Sigur Rós appear in prog doesn’t mean they are prog doesn’t hold much water - particularly when they have appeared in the magazine on more than one occasion (which is definitely not the norm for bands that are more “controversially” prog).

I get that a lot of people here don’t use FB, but there is a huge prog community on FB, and so, so, so, many prog pages and groups. Again, NIN and Sigur Rós appear frequently on prog pages and in prog groups. Their albums are reviewed by pages like The Prog Mind, Progressive Music Planet, and The Progressive Aspect, and their respective websites.

I have never, and would never, try and find something prog about everything I listen to. I don’t really care what is or is not prog when it comes to what I listen to. I never have. Again, I listened to a lot of prog for years, without even knowing it was prog. I really don’t understand why people get so hung up on the word. If something is in PA, then it has been recognised as prog outside PA, and recognised as prog by PA collaborators. Any argument that something is not prog within PA is therefore down to the individual making it. It’s actually quite offensive and insulting, if you think about it - because you are denigrating the work of volunteers who are working to make this site as inclusive as possible.

Over the years I have seen a lot of bands and artists I think are prog rejected, but I have never seen a band or artist accepted that isn’t recognised as prog outside PA. I definitely don’t agree with every rejection by collaborators, but it is far easier to be rejected than accepted into PA, so it’s incredibly short-sighted, and potentially downright right, to suggest that something has been accepted that shouldn’t have been. (And that has been my thought for years, while I have been a collaborator myself only for a couple of months.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 23:59
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:


I'm 29 and I don't see those bands as prog, NiN is industrial rock and Sigur Ros post rock. You can ask fans of those bands and they might not be into prog at all. And they will hardly mention prog if you ask the genre of music they make. I think stuff like Supertramp, Moody Blues, Radiohead, early Queen, etc, might be debated or fall into "crossover" prog, but those artists are simply a different genre.

 

NIN has gone beyond industrial, they did ambient/electronic, atmospheric music, I don't mind them being here on PA.

As for Sigur Ros, post rock is a prog subgenre, isn't it? No problem for them being on PA or being considered a prog band. What am I missing here? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 23:42
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

it might be a generational thing, maybe? Older prog fans who think of prog more in symphonic terms are surprised to think that anyone might consider bands like NIN and Sigur Rós are considered prog, but younger prog fans just accept it. It never occurred to me that people might not consider many of the bands listed. To use just NIN and Sigur Rós as examples, their albums have been routinely reviewed by prog websites and prog FB pages, and featured in prog blogs and mags.

Obviously, there will be older prog fans who are more accepting of bands like NIN and Sigur Rós being prog; and younger fans for whom this seems odd - but broadly speaking, and making the kind of generalisations that are bound to get me in trouble, I think the younger generations are able to recognise prog across a far wider spectrum than older fans who, if not stuck in the past, still stick to the more classic, symphonic sounds.


I'm 29 and I don't see those bands as prog, NiN is industrial rock and Sigur Ros post rock. You can ask fans of those bands and they might not be into prog at all. And they will hardly mention prog if you ask the genre of music they make. I think stuff like Supertramp, Moody Blues, Radiohead, early Queen, etc, might be debated or fall into "crossover" prog, but those artists are simply a different genre.


Yup.  I am 35 and have never thought of NiN as prog either. Likewise, I was a fan of Tori Amos long before she was added to progarchives.  I know a bunch of prog-listening friends all roughly in my age group and none of them would consider her prog.  It is what it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 23:03
A couple of years ago I would have been all over this thread...but man I’m tired of filosofying over stickers. Just looking at this thread makes me want to take a nap
My apologies to anyone out there who feels the stickers are integral to their world view and order of the very same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 22:48
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ The only Miles Davis album I take issue with in the top 100 is Kind of Blue.  This is an issue with our complete discography policy as well that we label acts not albums.  I think Miles Davis better suited to our JRF category than Prog Related for the late 60s through mid-70s period that he was included in PA for.  Herbie Hancock has a similar case.  

It's the same case with Chick, yet he remains absent. If we get stingy about jazz artists that only dabbled in fusion for a brief period in the 70s, then realistically, many of these artists should be gone (or relegated to Related if the standards for that grouping were to be expanded to include jazz musicians). And in Chick's case, he remained in a "progressive" realm (in the context of jazz AND jazz fusion) for a much larger portion of his discography than the aforementioned two giants. That being said, I realize this involves difficult discussions and debates, so I'm not really complaining. Just observing.


I totally agree with you in theory but like everything in this crazy world, nothing really works the way we want it to.

Firstly, the good news is that Chic is already here in a couple forms anyway, namely the Chic Corea Elektric Band as well as our beloved Return To Forever but he also had some fusion albums as a solo artist as well.

It took me a while to wrap my head around the jazz-fusion thing here but what it boils down to is that it is not an all encompassing addition process.

The category is reserved for only the most progressive of the lot as well as certain artists who were highly influential, so that explains why Davis and Hancock are here and others like Sun Ra and Freddie Hubbard are not.

Most of you have no idea how many fusion artists we turn down because they either aren't based in progressive rock or they had one fusion album out of dozens of jazz releases.

Therefore, jazz disco, jazz arabic folk etc doesn't fly here.

And yessir, there are always artists that remain here or remain absent that always make us go WTF

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 22:26
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Rush..........Tongue

Don't you mean the Beatles? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 21:37
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ The only Miles Davis album I take issue with in the top 100 is Kind of Blue.  This is an issue with our complete discography policy as well that we label acts not albums.  I think Miles Davis better suited to our JRF category than Prog Related for the late 60s through mid-70s period that he was included in PA for.  Herbie Hancock has a similar case.  

It's the same case with Chick, yet he remains absent. If we get stingy about jazz artists that only dabbled in fusion for a brief period in the 70s, then realistically, many of these artists should be gone (or relegated to Related if the standards for that grouping were to be expanded to include jazz musicians). And in Chick's case, he remained in a "progressive" realm (in the context of jazz AND jazz fusion) for a much larger portion of his discography than the aforementioned two giants. That being said, I realize this involves difficult discussions and debates, so I'm not really complaining. Just observing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 21:30
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ To me the JRF category is more descriptive of the electric Miles period than Prog Related is, which is one reason why I would not support the move into PR (I would consider it if a strong case was made and the JRF team unanimously supported it -- course the JRF team decided to add it to begin with).  One could say that lot of JRF is not Prog proper, and its here as part of the umbrella.  While I wouldn't say this is true (don't know), it has been said that the JRF category was basically created for Mahavishnu Orchestra (add Weather Report, I would think, and...).



How about a "mostly not prog but some real winners in there" category? LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 20:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 17:33
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

...
This is a VERY important issue. You have stuff like 80's Genesis as prog and albums that could be considered prog by non-prog bands ignored. It would be much better if albums were judged individually. 

Hi,

I would prefer that each and every band was NOT judged by one album ... but the multitude of albums, instead.

We don't refine our definition of Picasso, simply because he has a blue period, a rose period and then a cubistic period. It is all a part of the artist, and the fan has no say in the matter. The same should be addressed about the music that a band makes, although some change from the start and end differently ... which can easily be solved as being a part of progressive, but going away from the mode as time went by in the biographical section.

The same thing happens with AD2 when in right into VIVE LA TRANCE they stopped the long cuts and instead made a bunch of songs, that presumably were designed to make fun of radio but they also ended up making the band "clever" and more fun to listen to, if not a bit strange and weird in their applications of their "humor". Essentially, the band that had improvised and created from improvised scenarios, all of a sudden could only do "songs" and the battles within their members became more and more acute as to which material showed up or not, ending in an album that JW called "b*****d" in an email discussion and their website STILL does not list that album, which shows you their respect for each other which probably has been there under the table for a while! The "progressive" aspect of the band was replaced by what I would consider poor choices of music other than a few things in between. The band had lost its "source" and "way" to even be considered progressive by that time. Genesis was the same thing. While I do not think of YES the same way, I find the older material not as valuable and important as the earlier material which to me also brings down the "progressive" value. 

It's a serious issue ... but I really don't want to define a "band" by one album, when the rest is crap! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 16:46
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

it might be a generational thing, maybe? Older prog fans who think of prog more in symphonic terms are surprised to think that anyone might consider bands like NIN and Sigur Rós are considered prog, but younger prog fans just accept it. It never occurred to me that people might not consider many of the bands listed. To use just NIN and Sigur Rós as examples, their albums have been routinely reviewed by prog websites and prog FB pages, and featured in prog blogs and mags.

Obviously, there will be older prog fans who are more accepting of bands like NIN and Sigur Rós being prog; and younger fans for whom this seems odd - but broadly speaking, and making the kind of generalisations that are bound to get me in trouble, I think the younger generations are able to recognise prog across a far wider spectrum than older fans who, if not stuck in the past, still stick to the more classic, symphonic sounds.


I'm 29 and I don't see those bands as prog, NiN is industrial rock and Sigur Ros post rock. You can ask fans of those bands and they might not be into prog at all. And they will hardly mention prog if you ask the genre of music they make. I think stuff like Supertramp, Moody Blues, Radiohead, early Queen, etc, might be debated or fall into "crossover" prog, but those artists are simply a different genre.

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ The only Miles Davis album I take issue with in the top 100 is Kind of Blue.  This is an issue with our complete discography policy as well that we label acts not albums.


This is a VERY important issue. You have stuff like 80's Genesis as prog and albums that could be considered prog by non-prog bands ignored. It would be much better if albums were judged individually. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 14:42
^ To me the JRF category is more descriptive of the electric Miles period than Prog Related is, which is one reason why I would not support the move into PR (I would consider it if a strong case was made and the JRF team unanimously supported it -- course the JRF team decided to add it to begin with).  One could say that lot of JRF is not Prog proper, and its here as part of the umbrella.  While I wouldn't say this is true (don't know), it has been said that the JRF category was basically created for Mahavishnu Orchestra (add Weather Report, I would think, and...).

Edited by Logan - June 07 2021 at 14:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 14:35
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ The only Miles Davis album I take issue with in the top 100 is Kind of Blue.  This is a problem with our complete policy as well that we label acts not albums.  I think Miles Davis better suited to our JRF category than Prog Related for the late 60s through mid-70s period that he was included in PA for.  Herbie Hancock has a similar case.


It would make sense that they were in prog related given that they were never prog artists and simply made some influential fusion albums which are well within the minority of their entire canons. 

Of course this could all be changed with the ability to label albums separately or multi-label.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 14:32
^ The only Miles Davis album I take issue with in the top 100 is Kind of Blue.  This is an issue with our complete discography policy as well that we label acts not albums.  I think Miles Davis better suited to our JRF category than Prog Related for the late 60s through mid-70s period that he was included in PA for.  Herbie Hancock has a similar case.  

Edited by Logan - June 07 2021 at 14:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 14:25
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

There is a category here called Prog-related. All grey area artists should reside there. And that includes Miles! That way they are not part of the Top 100. Problem solved.

Amen to that. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2021 at 14:12
There is a category here called Prog-related. All grey area artists should reside there. And that includes Miles! That way they are not part of the Top 100. Problem solved.
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