![]() |
Artists considered prog on here but not elsewhere |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 45678> |
Author | ||
Man With Hat ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166183 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Its an unfortunate feature of the website, a shame really, but so it goes.
|
||
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
||
![]() |
||
ExittheLemming ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Not an unreasonable point of view certainly but just in. Newsflash: music ain't a science ![]() |
||
![]() |
||
nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6742 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Ae would definitely still have this problem, and if anything it would be worse and more divisive. Take Genesis for an obvious example. Most people here will acknowledge that Genesis were a prog group. But which was their last prog album? 😜
Depending on the individual the last album that was prog is anywhere from Lamb to the claim that there is not a single Genesis album that is not prog. When it comes to albums described as prog before prog is widely recognised as being a thing, there will always be arguments, too. But assuming that prog means progressive (and on this forum that is a mighty big assumption, but let’s run with it), then A Kind of Blue is inarguably a prog album. It just doesn’t seem so by today’s standard. But at the time, it was revolutionary - and more so than a lot of prog albums. As much as people don’t like Pedro, he is correct when he bemoans people not understanding how a piece of music was received at the time. It’s similar to the sort of arguments I used to hear at school, where people were trying to differentiate between metal and heavy metal, and saying that bands like Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden were not heavy metal because there is nothing heavy about them. They were just metal, or maybe hard rock. To those people heavy metal was Metallica and Megadeth. But Black Sabbath at the time we’re probably just as heavy as Metallica were to those arguing in the schoolyard. One needs to take into account how something sounded contemporaneously. |
||
![]() |
||
iluvmarillion ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3247 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
We wouldn't have this problem if we had prog albums rather than prog artists. It's been explained to me before why we can't do that because it's too difficult and I accept that. However we have albums on this site that shouldn't even be reviewed, not because they're not bad but because they're not prog. The star system is the best way of dealing with the problem because albums are graded upwards or downwards depending on their degree of proginess. However it escapes me why Kind Of Blue is rated so highly, not because it's not a great album, but because I don't see a lot of proginess in it. Other Miles Davis albums are more proggy.
Edited by iluvmarillion - June 08 2021 at 01:00 |
||
![]() |
||
nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6742 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Just the usual boring old argument about what is or isn’t prog. As usual people going for the anecdotal “no one I know” argument to “prove” something isn’t prog. Or the “most people that listen to it wouldn’t think it were prog” as “evidence” something isn’t prog. It’s all quite laughable. Not because people get so hung up on what they think is or isn’t prog, but because in this instance it is about something on PA not being prog. As far as I’m aware, a band still has to be recognised and acknowledged as being prog outside PA for inclusion in the archives. Not only that, but they have to be “prog enough” to be included in the archives, which is why the opposite of the OP is the truth - there are many bands recognised as prog that are not in PA. I very much doubt there are any bands in PA that are NOT recognised as prog outside the archive - despite what any one individual thinks. It’s irrelevant if a large chunk of their fans have never thought of the band or artist as prog. I as listening to prog music for years before knowing it was recognised as prog music. You most definitely don’t need to know something is prog to enjoy the music and be a fan. But, and I will keep going back to NIN and Sigur Rós, because they keep getting brought up, it is easy to see that they are recognised as being prog. Both have featured in Prog magazine, and though someone earlier mentioned that being in Prog doesn’t mean they are prog, that’s splitting hairs. Prog magazine has always featured bands that are on the edges of prog, but has also always acknowledged that (“it’s prog, Jim, but not as we know it”, etc.), so the argument that just because NIN and Sigur Rós appear in prog doesn’t mean they are prog doesn’t hold much water - particularly when they have appeared in the magazine on more than one occasion (which is definitely not the norm for bands that are more “controversially” prog). I get that a lot of people here don’t use FB, but there is a huge prog community on FB, and so, so, so, many prog pages and groups. Again, NIN and Sigur Rós appear frequently on prog pages and in prog groups. Their albums are reviewed by pages like The Prog Mind, Progressive Music Planet, and The Progressive Aspect, and their respective websites. I have never, and would never, try and find something prog about everything I listen to. I don’t really care what is or is not prog when it comes to what I listen to. I never have. Again, I listened to a lot of prog for years, without even knowing it was prog. I really don’t understand why people get so hung up on the word. If something is in PA, then it has been recognised as prog outside PA, and recognised as prog by PA collaborators. Any argument that something is not prog within PA is therefore down to the individual making it. It’s actually quite offensive and insulting, if you think about it - because you are denigrating the work of volunteers who are working to make this site as inclusive as possible. Over the years I have seen a lot of bands and artists I think are prog rejected, but I have never seen a band or artist accepted that isn’t recognised as prog outside PA. I definitely don’t agree with every rejection by collaborators, but it is far easier to be rejected than accepted into PA, so it’s incredibly short-sighted, and potentially downright right, to suggest that something has been accepted that shouldn’t have been. (And that has been my thought for years, while I have been a collaborator myself only for a couple of months.) |
||
![]() |
||
Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 46805 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
NIN has gone beyond industrial, they did ambient/electronic, atmospheric music, I don't mind them being here on PA. As for Sigur Ros, post rock is a prog subgenre, isn't it? No problem for them being on PA or being considered a prog band. What am I missing here?
![]() |
||
![]() |
||
rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Yup. I am 35 and have never thought of NiN as prog either. Likewise, I was a fan of Tori Amos long before she was added to progarchives. I know a bunch of prog-listening friends all roughly in my age group and none of them would consider her prog. It is what it is.
|
||
![]() |
||
Guldbamsen ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23147 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
A couple of years ago I would have been all over this thread...but man I’m tired of filosofying over stickers. Just looking at this thread makes me want to take a nap
![]() My apologies to anyone out there who feels the stickers are integral to their world view and order of the very same. |
||
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
||
![]() |
||
siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15455 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
I totally agree with you in theory but like everything in this crazy world, nothing really works the way we want it to. Firstly, the good news is that Chic is already here in a couple forms anyway, namely the Chic Corea Elektric Band as well as our beloved Return To Forever but he also had some fusion albums as a solo artist as well. It took me a while to wrap my head around the jazz-fusion thing here but what it boils down to is that it is not an all encompassing addition process. The category is reserved for only the most progressive of the lot as well as certain artists who were highly influential, so that explains why Davis and Hancock are here and others like Sun Ra and Freddie Hubbard are not. Most of you have no idea how many fusion artists we turn down because they either aren't based in progressive rock or they had one fusion album out of dozens of jazz releases. Therefore, jazz disco, jazz arabic folk etc doesn't fly here. And yessir, there are always artists that remain here or remain absent that always make us go WTF
|
||
![]() https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
||
![]() |
||
AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 19370 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Don't you mean the Beatles?
![]() |
||
![]() |
||
Awesoreno ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 07 2019 Location: Culver City, CA Status: Offline Points: 3118 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
It's the same case with Chick, yet he remains absent. If we get stingy about jazz artists that only dabbled in fusion for a brief period in the 70s, then realistically, many of these artists should be gone (or relegated to Related if the standards for that grouping were to be expanded to include jazz musicians). And in Chick's case, he remained in a "progressive" realm (in the context of jazz AND jazz fusion) for a much larger portion of his discography than the aforementioned two giants. That being said, I realize this involves difficult discussions and debates, so I'm not really complaining. Just observing.
|
||
![]() |
||
siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15455 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
How about a "mostly not prog but some real winners in there" category?
![]() |
||
![]() https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
||
![]() |
||
Catcher10 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 18059 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Rush..........
![]() |
||
![]() ![]() ![]() |
||
![]() |
||
moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18697 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Hi, I would prefer that each and every band was NOT judged by one album ... but the multitude of albums, instead. We don't refine our definition of Picasso, simply because he has a blue period, a rose period and then a cubistic period. It is all a part of the artist, and the fan has no say in the matter. The same should be addressed about the music that a band makes, although some change from the start and end differently ... which can easily be solved as being a part of progressive, but going away from the mode as time went by in the biographical section. The same thing happens with AD2 when in right into VIVE LA TRANCE they stopped the long cuts and instead made a bunch of songs, that presumably were designed to make fun of radio but they also ended up making the band "clever" and more fun to listen to, if not a bit strange and weird in their applications of their "humor". Essentially, the band that had improvised and created from improvised scenarios, all of a sudden could only do "songs" and the battles within their members became more and more acute as to which material showed up or not, ending in an album that JW called "b*****d" in an email discussion and their website STILL does not list that album, which shows you their respect for each other which probably has been there under the table for a while! The "progressive" aspect of the band was replaced by what I would consider poor choices of music other than a few things in between. The band had lost its "source" and "way" to even be considered progressive by that time. Genesis was the same thing. While I do not think of YES the same way, I find the older material not as valuable and important as the earlier material which to me also brings down the "progressive" value. It's a serious issue ... but I really don't want to define a "band" by one album, when the rest is crap!
|
||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||
![]() |
||
TheLionOfPrague ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 08 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1091 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
I'm 29 and I don't see those bands as prog, NiN is industrial rock and Sigur Ros post rock. You can ask fans of those bands and they might not be into prog at all. And they will hardly mention prog if you ask the genre of music they make. I think stuff like Supertramp, Moody Blues, Radiohead, early Queen, etc, might be debated or fall into "crossover" prog, but those artists are simply a different genre.
This is a VERY important issue. You have stuff like 80's Genesis as prog and albums that could be considered prog by non-prog bands ignored. It would be much better if albums were judged individually. |
||
I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place
|
||
![]() |
||
Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: In repose. Status: Offline Points: 38883 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
^ To me the JRF category is more descriptive of the electric Miles period than Prog Related is, which is one reason why I would not support the move into PR (I would consider it if a strong case was made and the JRF team unanimously supported it -- course the JRF team decided to add it to begin with). One could say that lot of JRF is not Prog proper, and its here as part of the umbrella. While I wouldn't say this is true (don't know), it has been said that the JRF category was basically created for Mahavishnu Orchestra (add Weather Report, I would think, and...).
Edited by Logan - June 07 2021 at 14:46 |
||
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
|
||
![]() |
||
siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15455 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
It would make sense that they were in prog related given that they were never prog artists and simply made some influential fusion albums which are well within the minority of their entire canons. Of course this could all be changed with the ability to label albums separately or multi-label.
|
||
![]() https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
||
![]() |
||
Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: In repose. Status: Offline Points: 38883 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
^ The only Miles Davis album I take issue with in the top 100 is Kind of Blue. This is an issue with our complete discography policy as well that we label acts not albums. I think Miles Davis better suited to our JRF category than Prog Related for the late 60s through mid-70s period that he was included in PA for. Herbie Hancock has a similar case.
Edited by Logan - June 07 2021 at 14:35 |
||
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
|
||
![]() |
||
AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 19370 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Amen to that.
![]() |
||
![]() |
||
miamiscot ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 23 2014 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 3635 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
There is a category here called Prog-related. All grey area artists should reside there. And that includes Miles! That way they are not part of the Top 100. Problem solved.
|
||
The Prog Corner
|
||
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 45678> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |