Reflections on the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

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Topic: Reflections on the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine
Posted: March 07 2022 at 10:37

I open this thread after seeing the impossibility of discussing calmly, and without insults, on the other thread on this topic.

I believe that the invasion of Ukraine is a historic turning point, and needs to be analyzed in depth.

As a nonviolent pacifist, and as a citizen of the world, I condemn Putin's war, I believe it is as wrong as all wars of border aggression. I will not repeat this premise because it seems obvious to me.

However, having memory, I also know that I have feared a war like this for many years because the expansion of NATO to Eastern Europe according to many independent Western analysts was leading to an increasing risk of a violent reaction from Moscow.

We are here on a music forum, we are neither political nor military, we do not have the power to determine history. We can only try to understand it.

To understand what is happening, it is necessary to research the historical events that preceded this invasion, that is, to study the context within which it was carried out and is carried out day after day. Understanding the historical context and the "reasons" for this invasion does not in any way justify it, but make it understandable. Every human action has its rational basis, however despicable it may be.

But understanding the causes of this invasion is especially important because if we do not understand the causes we cannot imagine what the solutions may be that can get us out of this state of war so that justice is done to all the agents in the field.

There is no true and lasting peace without justice.

We do not have the power to propose solutions, we can only try to understand history, study it, discuss, confront, and get an idea of how it could be a more just world where rights and duties are equal for everyone.

Any reflection, opinion, quotation from historians, politicians, intellectuals is welcome.

The important thing is to always show respect for the opinions of others.

Let's not fall into the logic of war, in the opposition between two barricades, between those who have only faults and those who have only reasons: there are many shades of gray between white and black.

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

Tapfret

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 10:02

Reopening this topic for discussion of the incursion into Ukraine. Lorenzo's thoughts seem like a good jumping off point. The previous thread, "...any concerns?", will remain closed. Only need one thread on the subject.

Personal attacks, gaslighting, disinformation, and generally creating a scenario that requires babysitting will be snuffed.

To restart the topic: People around the world are doing creative things to try and filter financial support into Ukraine. Renting Air BnB's, which obviously nobody would be actually occupying, was a particularly creative one. We can take a small part in supporting Ukrainian Artists by purchasing their albums and merchandise.

Our fellow collaborator, Igor (Prog- Jester), released Arlekin - The Secret Garden late in 2021.

Please post other smaller artists from Ukraine that may not show up in our search engine.

Again, keep this civil.

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Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 10:21

People in Eastern Europe desperately need your help. Here are some resources. I have been sending money to Razom for Ukraine:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/27/how-to-help-ukraine/

Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 10:24

Black people trying to flee the war have been facing racial prejudice and discrimination, you can help them:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-vulnerable-black-people-in-ukraine?fbclid=IwAR0c_9gG9TyjxVZdjm8LW4nmzpwoVstDoISp-FJ1eN9CvulEPyLivfp6lRI

Edited by Easy Money - March 11 2022 at 10:24

SteveG

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 10:28

Investigating historical events that led to this invasion? We are right back to where we left off on the last thread. Thumbs Down

Edited by SteveG - March 12 2022 at 07:03

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Tapfret

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 10:39

^Then perhaps you should avoid it if you can't come up with a constructive response.

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Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 12:49

News from Slava in Lithuania (Snobb on PA and JMA), who has been working 16+ hour shifts registering refugees:

"Ukrainians run from war predominantly through their Western order - to Poland, for a moment there are almost 2 million of refugees who crossed the border. Smaller amounts are crossing Slovak, Hungarian and Moldova's borders.

Lithuania has no direct borders with Ukraine, but we have hundreds of volunteers who with their own vans and cars just going to Poland's border zone with Ukraine and back taking refugees to Lithuania to help Poles with huge number of Ukrainian refugees. Them bring Ukrainians here to Lithuanian Centers of refugees, established by State Department of Migration. There are three of them in a country, the biggest one in Vilnius and two more- in smaller towns closer to Polish border. I work in Vilnius one, beside of my regular duties in Dept. LT government itself organize refugee traffic to Lithuania from Moldova, since it's a poor who can hardly support them, so we bring them here to Lithuania.

In such a center, we register refugees, they at once get temporary residence permit (which let them legally work in LT, open banc account, get free medical services in municipal medical centers /hospitals, use Vilnius public transport for free). My job is to register refugee - them usually speak Russian or Ukrainian only, make picture, take finger prints and issue a residence permit. Refugees can stay in the center up to 72 h, there are rooms where they can sleep, they receive hot food staff for free. There are Red Cross office in a center, plus more NGO representatives who offer free apartments to stay, employers offering job opportunities, etc"

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 13:10

Well, at least Pink Floyd is doing their part.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/music/news/pink-floyd-and-david-gilmour-removing-music-from-digital-platforms-in-russia-and-belarus/ar-AAUWAJp?li=AAggFp5

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Lewian

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 14:00

jamesbaldwin wrote:

To a citizen of an Easter European NATO member country the current invasion of non-NATO member Ukraine will look as if being NATO member has actually decreased the risk of being the victim of such an invasion. (That's at least what my friends from such countries tell me, and I have no reason to think they're wrong.)

SteveG

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 14:01

Tapfret wrote:

^Then perhaps you should avoid it if you can't come up with a constructive response.

I'm way ahead of you. Can we at least start a thread that's geared to what we can do to actually help these poor people? Website charities, etc, that's bereft of politics?

Edited by SteveG - March 11 2022 at 14:11

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Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 14:41

SteveG wrote:

Tapfret wrote:

^Then perhaps you should avoid it if you can't come up with a constructive response.

I'm way ahead of you. Can we at least start a thread that's geared to what we can do to actually help these poor people? Website charities, etc, that's bereft of politics?

Thats exactly what I am using this thread for, ways to help the victims, plus news and pictures from people who live there. I am not interested in analyzing the motivation of tyrants or arguing about it, and I do agree with you, it would be nice if this thread focused on ways we can help, not the politics of disaster.
Meanwhile, I will be posting more help resources plus news and images from the frontlines.

Edited by Easy Money - March 11 2022 at 16:03

SteveG

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 14:57

Easy Money wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Tapfret wrote:

^Then perhaps you should avoid it if you can't come up with a constructive response.

I'm way ahead of you. Can we at least start a thread that's geared to what we can do to actually help these poor people? Website charities, etc, that's bereft of politics?

Thats exactly what I am using this thread for, ways to help the victims, plus news from people who live there. I am not interested in analyzing the motivation of tyrants or arguing about it, and I do agree with you, it would be nice if this thread focused on ways we can help, not the politics of disaster.
Meanwhile, I will be posting more help resources and news from the frontlines.

Yes, I saw them John, and didn't mean to sidestep your efforts. I'll be following your future posts with great interest, and thanks for caring.

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 15:05

Lewian wrote:

jamesbaldwin wrote:

However, having memory, I also know that I have feared a war like this for many years because the expansion of NATO to Eastern Europe according to many independent Western analysts was leading to an increasing risk of a violent reaction from Moscow.

This is a significant sociopolitical observation, and may be in play long-term as things progress .

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy

Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 15:41

This is not a photo from 1941. This is a photo from March 2022 with all the color removed.
A chilling reminder that history repeats…

Edited by Easy Money - March 11 2022 at 15:42

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 16:34

Link provided below to a very thought provoking article about the post-2014 Ukrainian government’s problematic relationship with extreme right-wing parties and neo-Nazi groups. Although they are relegated to the margins come election time, Ukraine’s extreme right-wing Svoboda party and Right Sector group played leading roles in the US-backed coup in February 2014 where previously peaceful protests in Kiev, gave way to pitched battles with police and armed marches to try to break through barricades and reach parliament. (Sound familiar anyone?) Ukraine's military has little appetite to fight it's own people protesting for independence in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Donbas so formed new National Guard Units composed entirely from Right Sector and white supremacist Azov Battalion members to do so. None of the foregoing justifies the war crimes of Putin but I just wish we in the west would stop pretending that there is no significant far right activism problematic to an enduring peace in many parts of post Soviet eastern Europe.

http://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/medea-benjamin-nicolas-js-davies-ukraine-war-russia-ukranian-neo-nazi-fascists-azov-battalion-89292/

Edited by ExittheLemming - March 11 2022 at 16:38

omphaloskepsis View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 16:47

I hope America and the UK open their doors to Ukrainian refugees. I've contacted my House representative and Senators pleading the Ukrainian refugee case.

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 16:48

JD wrote:

Well, at least Pink Floyd is doing their part.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/music/news/pink-floyd-and-david-gilmour-removing-music-from-digital-platforms-in-russia-and-belarus/ar-AAUWAJp?li=AAggFp5

What part would that be? I genuinely don't understand these kinds of initiatives.

jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 17:32

IN ITALY THE CASE OF PROFESSOR ORSINI BREAKS: I WARNED THE PARLIAMENT OF AN IMMINENT WAR IN UKRAINE IN 2018

Over the past week, Italian news has been revolving around Professor Alessandro Orsini, who has made several television appearances.

In particular, on Wednesday 3 March, Orsini says in this video:

- the military responsibility for the war lies with Putin and I condemn the invasion of Ukraine, I am with Ukraine and the West

- the political responsibilities of this war, however, lie in a large part of Europe, because military powers such as the USA and Russia do not admit hostile states around them: Russia does not admit pro-American Ukraine just as the USA would not admit a Canada or a Pro-Soviet Mexico. Orsini says that if Mexico allies itself with Moscow, the US would assassinate its president or cause a Mexican civil war with the CIA, or directly wage war on Mexico. (Just think what Kennedy did with Castro about missiles in Cuba: he would never allow them, under any conditions).

- Putin has neither the intentions nor the means to invade Poland or other Eastern European states

- the European Union made a mistake because it does not have a policy of its own, it does not have "red lines" which must not be crossed, undermined by other powers. The US has Israel as its red line, Russia has Ukraine and Georgia as its red line. The European Union should think about avoiding a war in Europe, so it should not allow NATO to decide how to deal with the states of Eastern Europe. He says this by specifying that he studied in America, that he loves the US and that he learned from Americans to think about safeguarding the well-being of their nation.

After this speech, the University where Orsini teaches made a statement against him, saying that he does not represent the University's thinking, and that Orsini cannot speak in public if he does not take sides in favor of Ukraine (as he actually had done immediately, in the premises). Many university professors have defended Orsini, also thanks to a petition that has collected many signatures.

On Wednesday 10 March Orsini returned to the same TV show, and explained his thoughts better:

- the West (USA, and Europe) does not know that between June and September 2021, NATO carried out three enormous military exercises: "Sea Breeze", "Three Swords", "Rapid Trident" along the Ukrainian front, which they unleashed Putin's reaction. Where were the Europeans when NATO carried out these exercises that unleashed Putin's wrath?

- economic sanctions have historically never been of any use, and in particular the sanctions placed by Europe on Russia will end up damaging the whole of Europe

- Arms sales to Ukraine will make the war an even greater slaughter

- The US with Trump wanted to wage war on North Korea and Venezuela, but when the generals told Trump that the war in Korea would cost many American lives, and the war on Venezuela was too close to home, Trump gave up. The European Union should learn from the US: avoid wars close to home, safeguard our European lives.

- The European Union has FAILED, because it had to prevent wars in Europe, and instead is now selling arms to Ukraine! What has the European Union done in recent years? On December 4th 2018 Orsinsi was invited to speak in the Senate and he said that Russia was about to break through the Ukrainian front. Nobody did anything, indeed, in 2021 we allowed the Americans to organize three huge exercises on the Ukrainian front.

Europe failed. Now, the next war will be on the Georgia front.

Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 11 2022 at 17:39

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 17:47

My brother-in-law lived in Vietnam during the war. He said one of the best relief organizations he encountered for cutting red tape and effectively getting help to those that need it was this Christian group, World Vision:

https://www.worldvision.org/disaster-relief-news-stories/ukraine-crisis-facts-faqs-and-how-to-help

Edited by Easy Money - March 11 2022 at 17:49

Jaketejas

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Posted: March 11 2022 at 17:51

Easy Money wrote:

Black people trying to flee the war have been facing racial prejudice and discrimination, you can help them:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-vulnerable-black-people-in-ukraine?fbclid=IwAR0c_9gG9TyjxVZdjm8LW4nmzpwoVstDoISp-FJ1eN9CvulEPyLivfp6lRI

I like the idea of your starting a new thread specifically geared to these efforts, one that is monitored, because I think this thread is going to careen over a cliff.