Roe v Wade overturned

The Black Moor wrote: Human life begins at conception. This is a scientific and biological fact. It is not merely a religious belief. An atheist can (and should) be against abortion. The unborn is a separate life from the mother. It is not her body unless you want to make the argument that a pregnant woman has two heads four arms and four legs (and if the baby is male...!!!). Saying "don't have an abortion if you don't like it" is like the slaveholder saying "don't own a slave if you don't want one". It completely misses the point that a human life is being mistreated in each case.

also you can see im from texas so im sure you could have guessed my opinion anyhow lol

Edited by Cboi Sandlin - June 26 2022 at 17:45

Cboi Sandlin wrote: Atavachron wrote: The Black Moor wrote: Human life begins at conception. This is a scientific and biological fact. It is not merely a religious belief. An atheist can (and should) be against abortion. The unborn is a separate life from the mother. It is not her body unless you want to make the argument that a pregnant woman has two heads four arms and four legs (and if the baby is male...!!!). Saying "don't have an abortion if you don't like it" is like the slaveholder saying "don't own a slave if you don't want one". It completely misses the point that a human life is being mistreated in each case. Yeah--  first, welcome to the site though elsewhere you'd probably be considered a "fake" member or a troll as clearly you joined to discuss Roe v. Wade, not to discuss Progressive Rock.   That's fine, I suppose. Second, you just don't get it, so I'll just come out and say it :: Edit:  I don't care if the unborn baby is several months away from birth, It's the woman's choice Oh yeah, I went there, you betcha. Bro its a person. Its not the womans choice whether her kid can live or die. The child is a HUMAN BEING with a right to live. Sure, i totally understand the woman not wanting to raise the child because she wants to have a career, but thats what adoption is for. Why do people need to have abortions? They can literally just have the baby, put it up for adoption, and get on with their lives. Its that simple. Killing people is never the answer. Its that simple. Killing human beings, no matter their age, is wrong.

But, it's not that simple. If it were that simple, this would not be an issue.

There's a question about when personhood begins. There's been no determination of when the zygote/fetus can be called a person, which matter if you are making a moral argument.

It's also not simple to state that wanting a career over raising a child is a reason. Where would you stand in cases of rape, incest, or medical? In many cases, it is about not being ready to be a parent, whether emotionally, financially, or what have you.

So, then comes giving the baby up for adoption. To many women, emotionally, this is more difficult than the option of abortion. If a woman would rather keep the child, even though the overall better outcome is to give the child up for adoption, how do you stand on this. Blame the woman, say 'too bad, the kid grows up to suffer,' force the woman to give up the child.

There are so many consequences to consider that, no, it's not that simple. And to say so is dismissive.

Yes my first post was about abortion - not a troll. I read all the reviews every day on ProgArchives because i am always looking for another great band out there that i may have missed. Not sure why i am accused of being pro- gun anti -woman. Didn't even mention guns in my post. How can you be a prog fan and follow complex songs if you can't follow my simple post Not an atheist but my religious beliefs are not why i am pro-life. If it was only because of religion i would not impose them on anyone. But i think abortion should be illegal because the unborn is an innocent human life. After conception nothing is added to him or her - just nutrition and oxygen like the rest of us. Follow the science. If you don't have a right to life all your other rights don't mean a thing. Since someone will ask...i think you can own a gun but not machine guns and similar. Self defense is a right. Ok to legislate against beyond that point. Also against death penalty though i admit i don't shed too many tears when a murderer or rapist gets it. Thanks.

Atavachron wrote: Easy Money wrote: Atavachron wrote: ^^ Thank you for approaching it rationally.  So you're against the death penalty I take it? But forget that, just answer me this:  How is it conservatives (and libertarians) believe above all else in freedom and self-determination and yet, with relish, will legally force an adult woman to have a child?  Traditionally, Libertarians don't want to make abortion illegal, it is seen as one more road toward government intrusion. There are some people these days who misuse the term Libertarian, but a real Libertarian wants to keep abortion legal, and they are anti-death penalty too. I was Libertarian for a short while long ago, I don't belong to any camps now. Thanks for clarifying, John, it does seem an incongruous matter.   In past discussions with Libertarians here on the site, it turned out religion plays a significant role in their perceptions of abortion.   To them I say we have something called the Separation of Church & State.

I remember those guys, I chatted Libertarianism with them a bit, they seemed confused to me, they were just republicans, thats all. In some circles, conservatives will try to sound more cool and rather than say republican, they will say they are a libertarian because it sounds cooler, but true libertarians are quite different than social conservatives.

Barry Goldwater hated the influx of religion into the conservative movement, he was for keeping abortion legal and he was for gay rights too. He hated Pat Buchanan. I discuss this stuff with local conservatives, there are still some real libertarians out there, and they gladly distance themselves from the religious social conservatives.

EDIT: Rand Paul tries to front like he is libertarian, but he is mostly bs with creepy hair and he doesn't know which direction to point his mower.

Edited by Easy Money - June 26 2022 at 19:33

I think Pat Buchannan and Oral Roberts were the beginning of the religious right. Reagan bought into it, but I doubted his sincerity, seemed like a political move for him.
As the repub party became more religious, Goldwater pulled Bob Dole aside and said "Looks like we are the liberals of the republican party now". It was a joke of course.

Edited by Easy Money - June 26 2022 at 19:53

If any states do outlaw all abortions, if they are really serious about this, then there will be a marked rise in government and law enforcement involvement in an individual's pregnancy.
If another state is not that serious about it and mostly fronting for votes, then they will look the other way and let things slide and keep government and law enforcement involvement more minimal.

I could see serious enforcement coming from Texas and Alabama, both states already have a strong law enforcement presence. On the more slack side, I see Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas, these people are just lazy by nature and not fond of too much authority.

Edited by Easy Money - June 26 2022 at 20:20

I'm enjoying the mostly civil discussion here.  I am very pro choice, for many of the reasons cited.  I don't understand how the party of freedom can be so hypocritical in their defense of a zygote but care not a whit for a fully formed child once it's out of the womb.  It seems like their freedom is freedom from those who are different rather than freedom to pursue happiness

I do suppose that an argument could be made that early on when it’s just a clump of cells, then maybe it isn’t a person and could be aborted if you caught it that early. But I do think that once it reaches the point where it actually has a heart beat and a brain that can think, then it is a person at that point and it should not be killed.

The Black Moor wrote: Human life begins at conception. This is a scientific and biological fact. It is not merely a religious belief. An atheist can (and should) be against abortion.

Why so anthropocentric? It also largely comes from religious beliefs. We are just animals, nothing more, in reality.

What do you say when vegans accuse you of being a "murderer" for eating meat?

Same stuff, really, in essence.

These are moot things. I can confidently say that any plant deserves a good life too, if I have to. They also love their lives, even if they don't feel pain. Their zest for life could even be unmatched.

Edited by Archisorcerus - June 27 2022 at 01:18