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The Big Six - of the 80s?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 13:34

According to the Danish Politikens Rockleksikon (1993), Queensryche didn't attained any significant international popularity 
before 1988 with their Operation: Mindcrime (released May), so that is not much of the 80's. While Fates Warning is not 
mentioned at all in this encyclopedia nor in New Musical Express' Who's Who in Rock & Roll (1991), so I wonder how popular 
they were in the 80's. 





Edited by David_D - September 17 2022 at 14:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Necrotica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 06:51
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Someone earlier mentioned that Iron Maiden had three prog albums in the 80s. Really? What were they? As far as I know only Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son could be considered prog or prog metal (I think maybe they were trying to jump on the still nascent prog metal bandwagon). 

If there is a big six of prog in the ‘80s, it would make sense to me that they were six of the “still recent prog metal bandwagon”. Just as we look at the Big Six of the ‘70s as the instigators and innovators and influencers of so much to come, and who all had some degree of impact on the charts, and whose names were known by the general public, even if they had not actually listened to them; so (to my mind) the logical big six of the ‘80s is almost inarguably from prog metal on a global scale. A band like Marillion made next to no impact outside the UK. I knew the name only because my brother used to subscribe to a UK music magazine (where Marillion were the butt of many a joke and criticism).

Fates Warning
Kings X
Metallica
Queensryche
Rush

Ok, so that’s only five, and two are not prog “enough” for PA to consider more than “Prog Related”, but Metallica and Kings X were as big an influence on what was to come in prog metal as the other three. All of these bands I had heard of in little old New Zealand, and all had their fanbases in that wee country on the bottom of the world that is so insignificant it has been left off many a map. Some even dented the charts.

If I were to add a sixth, it would probably be another prog related band, and, in fact, the one that you are questioning how prog they ever were, and that is Iron Maiden. Maiden had prog in their music from the offset (their debut album has plenty to offer a prog fan), and while I have never heard of the three albums I’m assuming are the “prog trilogy”, there is certainly plenty of prog on Powerslave, Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son.

Personally, I’ve never heard a great deal of difference, in terms of prog, between Iron Maiden and Queensryche. To me, to grossly simplify it, they are the same band on different sides of the Atlantic. Queensryche always sounded to me like a US Maiden, and I remember the first time saying that to a friend in the US, and him laughing because he has always thought Maiden sounded like a UK Queensryche. Each is as prog as the other, and if Queensryche is more prog it’s only because when people think of prog metal they tend to think of a more US style (just as in the ‘70s we think of prog in the more UK style - hence several interesting discussions over the years about what US prog sounds like).

So much of what prog metal is these days is influenced by these five (or six) bands, just as so much of what symphonic and neo prog these days is influenced by the big six of the ‘70s. To me they are the closest equivalent, in terms of global reach and influence, and renown and chart success.


I couldn't disagree more with this. I understand that prog metal was an important part of prog's development, but most bands in the 80s/90s crop of the genre only achieved a large degree of success in the US (largely because most of the budding prog metal groups were from the states anyway). But regardless of the US's size and population, we absolutely need to give at least somewhat of a nod to the British groups for their influence and fanbases abroad; that's why I made my Big Six a combination of prog metal, neo-prog, and crossover bands (specifically Saga in the latter category). Plus, even though commercial success is a factor in determining a Big Six like this, I feel like your post hinged a little too much on that. Regardless of the success of songs like "Walk in the Shadows" or "Summerland", how many bands actually emulate that style these days? I hate to say it, but it seems as though the most successful prog metal artists of today prefer to abide by the djent-oriented Meshuggah playbook (not saying I dislike Meshuggah, I just don't like a lot of what they influenced).


Edited by Necrotica - September 17 2022 at 20:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 06:32
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:


So, this may be a good starting point on determining which bands could make up the "big six" of the 1980s:
https://tinyurl.com/2p98ttb9 (this is a tiny URL for the top 250 albums of the 1980s on PA)


So Univers Zero, Eskaton, Cardiacs & Voivod are in with a shout!

I'd love to add Present, but I'm not sure if two albums is representative enough for an entire decade. But, wow, they were two amazing albums!

… or anybody who only contributed to only half of the decade.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 04:35
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Someone earlier mentioned that Iron Maiden had three prog albums in the 80s. Really? What were they? As far as I know only Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son could be considered prog or prog metal (I think maybe they were trying to jump on the still nascent prog metal bandwagon). 

If there is a big six of prog in the ‘80s, it would make sense to me that they were six of the “still recent prog metal bandwagon”. Just as we look at the Big Six of the ‘70s as the instigators and innovators and influencers of so much to come, and who all had some degree of impact on the charts, and whose names were known by the general public, even if they had not actually listened to them; so (to my mind) the logical big six of the ‘80s is almost inarguably from prog metal on a global scale. A band like Marillion made next to no impact outside the UK. I knew the name only because my brother used to subscribe to a UK music magazine (where Marillion were the butt of many a joke and criticism).

Fates Warning
Kings X
Metallica
Queensryche
Rush

Ok, so that’s only five, and two are not prog “enough” for PA to consider more than “Prog Related”, but Metallica and Kings X were as big an influence on what was to come in prog metal as the other three. All of these bands I had heard of in little old New Zealand, and all had their fanbases in that wee country on the bottom of the world that is so insignificant it has been left off many a map. Some even dented the charts.

If I were to add a sixth, it would probably be another prog related band, and, in fact, the one that you are questioning how prog they ever were, and that is Iron Maiden. Maiden had prog in their music from the offset (their debut album has plenty to offer a prog fan), and while I have never heard of the three albums I’m assuming are the “prog trilogy”, there is certainly plenty of prog on Powerslave, Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son.

Personally, I’ve never heard a great deal of difference, in terms of prog, between Iron Maiden and Queensryche. To me, to grossly simplify it, they are the same band on different sides of the Atlantic. Queensryche always sounded to me like a US Maiden, and I remember the first time saying that to a friend in the US, and him laughing because he has always thought Maiden sounded like a UK Queensryche. Each is as prog as the other, and if Queensryche is more prog it’s only because when people think of prog metal they tend to think of a more US style (just as in the ‘70s we think of prog in the more UK style - hence several interesting discussions over the years about what US prog sounds like).

So much of what prog metal is these days is influenced by these five (or six) bands, just as so much of what symphonic and neo prog these days is influenced by the big six of the ‘70s. To me they are the closest equivalent, in terms of global reach and influence, and renown and chart success.


If you are going to try to quote me then do it right. I said "nascent" not "recent." Nascent means in the early stages of or embryonic. Prog metal didn't really become a focused thing until the 90s just like heavy metal didn't really become a focused thing until the 80s. Also, I definitely wouldn't put Rush in with those other bands. In the 80s their sound had changed and they really weren't metallish at all. You might be better off putting Triumph in there instead or maybe Crimson Glory, Savatage, Watchtower or Voivod. I don't usually see that era of Metallica (or any era for that matter) referred to as prog-metal either.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - September 17 2022 at 04:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 03:50
^ I concur that they were big in - at least parts of - Europe. Mid 80s I saw them at the Ahoy hall in Rotterdam that at that time in concert set-up could host at about 10.000 people (after renovation and the suppression of the velodrome this is now 16.000). And if I remember well, they had at least two dates there...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 03:28
In terms of Nick’s comments regarding Marillion, he is spot on in terms of them being the butt of many a joke. Indeed, I made reference to this in the review of Ghost of the Machine’s debut album I posted on my website last night (no, I never miss an opportunity to advertise itApprove), but I would respectfully beg to differ regarding the reach of the band outside the UK in the Fish era. 

They were, in fact, pretty big in Europe, regularly playing to large venues and the support of the band to this day there can be traced right back to the Fugazi and Misplaced Childhood time. Further, they attracted a decent sized cult following in North America, certainly bigger than the sort of crowd you see on site such as Prog Ears. They were played regularly on FM radio over there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 01:44
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Someone earlier mentioned that Iron Maiden had three prog albums in the 80s. Really? What were they? As far as I know only Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son could be considered prog or prog metal (I think maybe they were trying to jump on the still nascent prog metal bandwagon). 

If there is a big six of prog in the ‘80s, it would make sense to me that they were six of the “still recent prog metal bandwagon”. Just as we look at the Big Six of the ‘70s as the instigators and innovators and influencers of so much to come, and who all had some degree of impact on the charts, and whose names were known by the general public, even if they had not actually listened to them; so (to my mind) the logical big six of the ‘80s is almost inarguably from prog metal on a global scale. A band like Marillion made next to no impact outside the UK. I knew the name only because my brother used to subscribe to a UK music magazine (where Marillion were the butt of many a joke and criticism).

Fates Warning
Kings X
Metallica
Queensryche
Rush

Ok, so that’s only five, and two are not prog “enough” for PA to consider more than “Prog Related”, but Metallica and Kings X were as big an influence on what was to come in prog metal as the other three. All of these bands I had heard of in little old New Zealand, and all had their fanbases in that wee country on the bottom of the world that is so insignificant it has been left off many a map. Some even dented the charts.

If I were to add a sixth, it would probably be another prog related band, and, in fact, the one that you are questioning how prog they ever were, and that is Iron Maiden. Maiden had prog in their music from the offset (their debut album has plenty to offer a prog fan), and while I have never heard of the three albums I’m assuming are the “prog trilogy”, there is certainly plenty of prog on Powerslave, Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son.

Personally, I’ve never heard a great deal of difference, in terms of prog, between Iron Maiden and Queensryche. To me, to grossly simplify it, they are the same band on different sides of the Atlantic. Queensryche always sounded to me like a US Maiden, and I remember the first time saying that to a friend in the US, and him laughing because he has always thought Maiden sounded like a UK Queensryche. Each is as prog as the other, and if Queensryche is more prog it’s only because when people think of prog metal they tend to think of a more US style (just as in the ‘70s we think of prog in the more UK style - hence several interesting discussions over the years about what US prog sounds like).

So much of what prog metal is these days is influenced by these five (or six) bands, just as so much of what symphonic and neo prog these days is influenced by the big six of the ‘70s. To me they are the closest equivalent, in terms of global reach and influence, and renown and chart success.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2022 at 21:21
Originally posted by Jackal3000 Jackal3000 wrote:

I'd say Echolyn's first album is Neo-Prog.

I like it and while it is rather song oriented I personally don't think it really had much of a neo prog sound. Maybe for an american band they did but not enough for me to label it neo prog. If others believe that's the case I'm ok with that but they aren't even labelled neo prog on here. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - September 16 2022 at 21:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2022 at 21:19
Someone earlier mentioned that Iron Maiden had three prog albums in the 80s. Really? What were they? As far as I know only Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son could be considered prog or prog metal (I think maybe they were trying to jump on the still nascent prog metal bandwagon). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jackal3000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2022 at 21:00
I'd say Echolyn's first album is Neo-Prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 15:35
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

The Big Six - of the 80s?

The simplest answer: There's no such thing - for a reason.

There was a Big Four of Thrash Metal in the 1980's. But not in the 1990's. Same thing here.

I suppose U2, Simple Minds and Big Country were the 'Big 3' of.. well i'm not sure actually.. big, overblown, stadium-pomp- rock in the 80's?? U2 certainly openly decried any perceived 'prog' influences.. Simple Minds and Big Country perhaps more open minded to a degree.. i cant stand U2 but have a soft spot for the Scots contingent..

Actually (briefly) Runrig were quite big..

Apart from the UK NWOBPR at the start of the 80's, Marillion were the only big venue fillers.. Rush, Zappa..

It was mostly padded shoulder jackets with sleeves rolled up and bad mulletsWink

There's probably a big four, five or six 1980's Stadium Rock, New Romantics, Synth Pop, Sophistipop, Hair Metal, Post Punk, Indie, Art Pop, Italo Pop etc... but an 80's Big Six of prog rock feels absurd to me. Prog wasn't really Alive and Kicking in that decade, and about as relevant as... Be Bop.

Yep, kinda what i was sayingLOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 15:02
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

You're falling into the trap of pigeon-holing artists into only one genre when there's absolutely no reason why an artist can't be classified as both Symphonic Prog & Neo Prog at the same time, like The Flower Kings for instance, so neither of us is right or wrong. I don't want to state the obvious, but music genres are more a matter of opinion and not an exact science.  Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 14:13
To me the top 6 are the six that brought mee exieting sounds with progressive ideals, my favourites are as follows

SAGA
Marillion
Japan
Rush
Cardiacs
Controversial choise
Ultravox
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 13:06
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

You're falling into the trap of pigeon-holing artists into only one genre when there's absolutely no reason why an artist can't be classified as both Symphonic Prog & Neo Prog at the same time, like The Flower Kings for instance, so neither of us is right or wrong. I don't want to state the obvious, but music genres are more a matter of opinion and not an exact science.  Wink

Something else is to decide on what basis to classify an artist. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 11:46
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:


So, this may be a good starting point on determining which bands could make up the "big six" of the 1980s:
https://tinyurl.com/2p98ttb9 (this is a tiny URL for the top 250 albums of the 1980s on PA)


So Univers Zero, Eskaton, Cardiacs & Voivod are in with a shout!

I'd love to add Present, but I'm not sure if two albums is representative enough for an entire decade. But, wow, they were two amazing albums!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 11:00
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Possibly a slight case for Pallas - IQ and Twelfth Night by a long stretch...

Apart from Marillion, I don't think any of these other bands made a dent Stateside...(US readers may want to correct me...)
I couldn't even name half a dozen American Neo Prog bands. The only two that come to mind are Echolyn and Spock's Beard, neither of whom were around in the 1980's. Ermm

I have to be honest though..... I didn't buy my first Neo Prog album until earlier this year when I bought three albums by Marillion, even though I wasn't a big fan of theirs back in the 1980's Embarrassed 

American neo-prog is rare, neo-prog was a European thing, mostly British at first.  

Echolyn and Spock's Beard are not neo-prog bands. 
Echolyn and Spock's Beard both featured prominently in a Neo Prog book I read recently, even though they're not listed as such on ProgArchives. Smile

if you cannot see the difference between the sound of the bands you listed above and the sound of Echolyn and Spock's Beard, that's on you then... 
You're falling into the trap of pigeon-holing artists into only one genre when there's absolutely no reason why an artist can't be classified as both Symphonic Prog & Neo Prog at the same time, like The Flower Kings for instance, so neither of us is right or wrong. I don't want to state the obvious, but music genres are more a matter of opinion and not an exact science.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 09:47

The Alan Parsons Project can be considered for sure, but there's again the question what to think about it from 
the perspective of Progressive Rock, even Who's Who in Rock & Roll  did consider the band as a part of the genre.

If to approach the whole question not historically but from the perspective of today (the greatest classics from the 80's), 
my answer wouldn't be the same, but like Progaardvark a referring to the highest rated albums on RYM and PA.




Edited by David_D - September 15 2022 at 13:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 08:43
^ Of those four, Cardiacs are closest.  Despite their excellent output, the other three are not really in contention.  I have seen Cardiacs many times but cannot recall any opportunity to see the other three (UZ played in my home town of Nottingham in 78, but only found out well after the event!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 08:35
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:


So, this may be a good starting point on determining which bands could make up the "big six" of the 1980s:
https://tinyurl.com/2p98ttb9 (this is a tiny URL for the top 250 albums of the 1980s on PA)


So Univers Zero, Eskaton, Cardiacs & Voivod are in with a shout!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2022 at 07:43
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Maybe we need a thread titled "How to Define and Classify Neo Prog". Then again, maybe we don't. Tongue

That would surely be interesting and exiting. Big smile

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