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Haken - Rock or Metal
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Poll Question: Are Haken ...
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18 [90.00%]
2 [10.00%]
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 30540 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2023 at 02:21
Oh we love a label don't we LOL

The Mountain is the odd one out album as its quite eclectic and varied and not that metal orientated. The others are more metal for sure. However I can't position them with a lot of metal bands that I hear. There is a certain amount of con-fusion , (ha see what I did there?) No vote (just don't know)
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2023 at 02:39
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^^ Especially with heavy metal, I can't really draw the line between classic heavy metal and hard rock. Various albums classified as of post-metal, stoner metal, doom metal are what I might call rock. This kind of stuff is rooted in heavy metal, and that is rooted in the rock tradition (grew out of it). And more modern metal I guess grew out of metal. Like rock and roll, its roots are in the blues, but I guess metal (not classic heavy metal) moved away from the blues.

I had an interesting discussion with someone at metalarchives.com years ago explaining to why metal is not rock and why classic heavy metal is not metal.

I'd be fine with calling Haken Metal/Rock Fusion and would agree. Like many bands, certainly most of the interesting ones I'd say, it is more than just one thing.

The advent of Thrash changed everything. The problem is that we use the word "metal" for two very different styles: The first "metal" albums of the 1970s (e.g. Black Sabbath), and everything that came after (and was influenced by) the first Thrash albums of the 80s.

So we're basically using "metal" for different things - let's refer to them as "classic metal" and "modern metal", for the lack of better terms. To tie this back to Haken, I think it is obvious from how Haken use drums and guitars that their music is strongly tied to modern metal. 
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bardberic View Drop Down
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Points: 930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bardberic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2023 at 03:30
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^^ Especially with heavy metal, I can't really draw the line between classic heavy metal and hard rock. Various albums classified as of post-metal, stoner metal, doom metal are what I might call rock. This kind of stuff is rooted in heavy metal, and that is rooted in the rock tradition (grew out of it). And more modern metal I guess grew out of metal. Like rock and roll, its roots are in the blues, but I guess metal (not classic heavy metal) moved away from the blues.

I had an interesting discussion with someone at metalarchives.com years ago explaining to why metal is not rock and why classic heavy metal is not metal.

I'd be fine with calling Haken Metal/Rock Fusion and would agree. Like many bands, certainly most of the interesting ones I'd say, it is more than just one thing.

The advent of Thrash changed everything. The problem is that we use the word "metal" for two very different styles: The first "metal" albums of the 1970s (e.g. Black Sabbath), and everything that came after (and was influenced by) the first Thrash albums of the 80s.

So we're basically using "metal" for different things - let's refer to them as "classic metal" and "modern metal", for the lack of better terms. To tie this back to Haken, I think it is obvious from how Haken use drums and guitars that their music is strongly tied to modern metal. 

Even then, I would say that the first few years of thrash was still in the rock family - it wasn't until around Master of Puppets that the music became distinct from rock. I would say the REAL game changer was Groove Metal in the early 90s. This is pretty much the first metal genre that completely removed all elements of rock and/or punk from the music, making it really the first form of pure metal that can't be classified as rock. Ironically, this was also the start of the metal elitism where people claim certain "metal" genres aren't really metal, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that genres like Nu Metal, Djent, etc. don't have any linkage to rock music.

But in my opinion, it was the early 80s during the NWoBHM where metal broke out into its own genre. I think we're all in agreement that traditional heavy metal, eg Black Sabbath, Queen, Deep Purple, etc. are a form of rock music, one way or another - I do not consider Black Sabbath to be hard rock. From their debut they've always been more in the blues rock family of things. I'd even go as far as to consider the Black Sabbath eponymous debut as a "heavy blues" album.


Edited by bardberic - June 09 2023 at 03:30
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2023 at 03:37
^ I would say that in the Metallica discography the paradigm shift occured already with Ride The Lightning. Kill 'em All was essentially a very modern NWOBHM type release. But indeed, on MoP the shift was complete.

Maybe it is best to stick with the label "heavy metal" for the classic metal style that is still pretty much a sub genre of rock, and then use "metal" for the type of music that really isn't rock anymore. Of course this is complicated by metal bands adding back rock elements to their music later, like Haken have always been doing. 
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Hercules View Drop Down
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Points: 7024 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2023 at 08:17
More metal than rock, definitely.
My son says the general opinion is that they've been the outstanding band at Download so far.
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geekfreak View Drop Down
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Points: 9879 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geekfreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2023 at 10:34
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

first option 


Yes
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