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Book "Electronics of Rock and Roll" |
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vladan3101 
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Joined: November 05 2021 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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 Topic: Book "Electronics of Rock and Roll"Posted: April 22 2024 at 14:46 |
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Thanks for letting me know. I am looking forward to hearing your feedback, especially if/when you spot any mistakes, imprecisions, etc. I have no idea how many people from this Forum might have acquired the book, but I would appreciate receiving all such comments from all who read it. Unlike the classical printings, the text of the books published on amazon.com can be constantly updated, without issuing a formal revised new edition -- they don't print copies in advance, they print them after they are ordered. I cannot do any massive changes in the organization and content, but I can correct almost all minor mistakes.
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Gerinski
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Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5152 |
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Posted: April 22 2024 at 12:16 |
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Hello Vladan, I finally got your book
 It's going to take me a while to read it because I'm currently busy with some other stuff, but I'm looking forward to reading it as soon as I can, it looks very interesting. I got the paperback colour version, hardcover was a bit expensive...  |
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moshkito
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Posted: March 25 2024 at 04:49 |
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Hi, And here is my last word on this subject. The materialistic attitude and commercialization of it, is the saddest thing about all this ... it's not even about the person, or the artist ... it's about the peripherals that added to it, and thus, the art form is relegated to worthless ... with the instruments and the medium more important than the message itself. FM radio was a massive message, and reaction to what was there before, but it was also an incredible advance in the way we listen to music, this time in stereo, more REAL than before. And the sad thing, is that this means almost nothing to anyone, and the people that worked so hard to make it all work. It's sad, that in the 21st century we do not have respect and love for the art ... that all we have is a respect for the materialistic side of it all ... the instruments are the message, instead of them being the medium that they are ... but you both would not know that or the difference, is how I think of it ... something that is very sad for me, and you two are not willing to discuss it, and will instead stand by your "book" where the truth is subverted to the instruments, and further away from the person. Saddest thing, to have more respect for the materialistic side of things, rather than the human aspect of it all, the art of it all.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito
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Posted: March 24 2024 at 19:54 |
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Hi, That's like saying the market in Southern California is not valuable and there was no information on the stations I mentioned.
That's possible, although I think that this is faulty ... the station in Santa Barbara, like many in the USA were subject to the FCC's rule about the 4-letter words at the time, and the listeners could be said to be younger, but folks that knew music, were also there ... and the TD concerts, and others did not have just youngsters in it in Santa Barbara, but also older folks.
1. I can't afford to get it ... I'm retired and on a tight budget. 2. Why would I be interested in something that is almost totally opposite the time and space I experienced from 1968 in Madison WI to now? The comments are specially sad in my view of things, because the industry survived, despite the attempts to put it down by the record companies and numbers that continually make the original FM owners just a bunch of idiots, although it was their ability to show new music that helped it all, and sadly enough they sold out, after so many years of scratching the surface.
None of those are meant to be an accusation but more of a question. I don't think you would write this book, otherwise, so please reconsider the idea. And Gerinsky's comment ... mind you that the "instruments" were available at the store to everyone, just about (other than the colors!) and thus, they would not be the reason for the music ... the folks that played were the reason, and this is something that I find Gerinsky is not willing to accept in order to defend his book. You can go to any music store and get many of those instruments, and the same musicians used them for jazz and other ideas. Thus, the "instruments of ... " this or that, is a rather poor idea in my book. It takes the credit of the musicians themselves out of them ... you might as well start saying that the clock maker (that invented the synth) is the hero, not the musicians that learned how to use it. I'm simply standing for the musician and the artist ... and all else is not important ... they are the creators and folks like you and Gerinsky are "after the fact" ... and not very original, if I may state so, although I believe you are both (obviously) allowed to do as you please and believe. There is no harm, or bad intention meant at all, but not standing up for the art form, and the artist himself/herself ... is not right. They created the stuff we love, and the instrument was a medium ... not the message! |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Gerinski
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Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5152 |
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Posted: March 24 2024 at 15:39 |
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Vladan, forget about moshkito, he also criticized my book only for its title, obviously without having read it. He went as far as saying something like that the book was discussing the colour of the instruments
 He criticises everything from everyone without any foundations, he thinks only he owns the truth because his family had a large library and was fond of arts.
I only recommend you not to try reading any reviews by him, he has posted very few on PA but they are insufferable. |
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vladan3101
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Posted: March 24 2024 at 11:05 |
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I think this might
depend on the place/area in the USA. In California, at least LA and Santa
Barbara, I would say that the only AM personality that stood out and continued
was Wolfman Jack. For the most part California was all about FM radio ... but
now, we have to take a look at the smaller markets, that rarely, if ever,
follow the rest of the numbers… The late 70's
would be an incorrect assumption, because that is like saying that the Great
American Corporate Rape, was what made FM come out on top, and that would be
incorrect and not likely ... FM listenership not exceeding that of AM until the late 1970s is a data point often mentioned in books and articles on radio. You can find it even on Wikipedia now (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcasting_in_the_United_States). Many stations in big cities did reach top spots much earlier (including some mentioned in the book), and FM did disproportionally better in what I presume is our age group now (under 25-year-old demographic at the time, the article in Wikipedia gives an example), but it did not do nearly as well with older listeners. I would be grateful if you could point to some other reliable numbers. Anecdotal information is always interesting but will not be helpful for the book.
It's much easier to
kiss up to the industry so you can get your book published .... oh well ... so
much for knowledge, and the attention to it! You have every right to dislike my book, but by now, I have a strong impression that you have not read it. First, you accused me of spreading falsehoods about FM ad revenue based on your anecdotal info about ratings. Then you accused me of claiming that the Prog Rock died, which is nowhere in the book. Now, I am kissing up to the industry to get the book published. That is just too much. The book is self-published. I have no connections whatsoever with the music industry for well over 40 years now, and I believe the book is as critical of it as any I know, if not more. Edited by vladan3101 - March 24 2024 at 11:06 |
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moshkito
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Posted: March 23 2024 at 14:08 |
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Hi, I think this might depend on the place/area in the USA. In California, at least LA and Santa Barbara, I would say that the only AM personality that stood out and continued was Wolfman Jack. For the most part California was all about FM radio ... but now, we have to take a look at the smaller markets, that rarely, if ever, follow the rest of the numbers. I know in Madison, WI, for example, the FM station blew out the AM station in 1968/1969 ... and mostly due to some DJ's that thought they were bigger than the music and spent their time trashing the hippies and ... yeah ... a lot more. But Madison, with a school and 50K students was probably very liberal and the station got ripped. The late 70's would be an incorrect assumption, because that is like saying that the Great American Corporate Rape, was what made FM come out on top, and that would be incorrect and not likely ... why would you buy something that is not "on top" or "number one", which means that information is likely fudged because no one has stood out for the FM side of things, and someone like Jim Ladd, who would have a million stories between his stays on KMET and KLOS, did not write much about it, and kinda let it go ... I always thought he was paid to shut up about the past ... but the album he did with Roger Waters, pretty much is right on the money about it but we think it didn't happen ... it might also have happened in NY, but I have not much information or knowledge of the radio state in NY, and I can not imagine that the FM radio didn't explode there, since it was in STEREO, whereas AM radio was cheap MONO. In other words, we got to listen to the music you could buy, instead of hearing something not even close and poorly "recorded". ALL big cities were major on the FM radio in America, and they were what helped the Progressive Music and a lot of Jazz come alive for many folks, instead of hearing some kind of top ten, that had not as great musical design and talent. And it was the rise of the FM radio adventures that brought us the "new" music, and it started way back in 1972, at least ... when I became aware of it in Santa Barbara, but it had been on in LA, with the PBS station (yeap the famous one) had a lot of progressive and experimental stuff that was only played on the FM radio signal and this even included the Firesign Theater and many other bands by a couple of folks over there in the middle of the night. KNAC also deserves a huge mention, as they had been playing "imports" for a very long time, and probably deserve the kudos for a lot of bands like Golden Earring, Nektar, Genesis, Yes, and many others since they were playing the stuff way before the bigger stations were ... it just shows you how much is "hidden" and not paid attention to ... saddest thing ever ... and you haven't even discovered Archie Patterson, who was a part of the early "imports" and continued it for many years, and was the only American to offer the KS Works, and then MG Works. He was in LA at the time of Jem Records and the beginning of the "import" explosion that happened with the help of a lot of FM stations, though I would say that KMET and KLOS were not as adventurous, but they were all over ELP, Yes, Pink Floyd (much more after DSOTM) ... Along with the "imports" came one of the reasons to buy them even more ... if you check with Moby Disk and their folks, TD and KS were totally major as were many other electronic folks that were not exactly played on the air with the except of Guy Guden in Santa Barbara that I am aware of, who played a lot of these things in their entirety! Both ARchie and Guy (AFAIK) are "retired" from talking about the old days, as the misinformation is not interested in the rebellious folks that helped it come alive. It's much easier to kiss up to the industry so you can get your book published .... oh well ... so much for knowledge, and the attention to it! The real knowledge is not wanted or appreciated! But the same gibberish that is from the record companies is what you rely on ... you might start your "education" with the excellent special on Tom Dowd to have any idea how so much of this came from and got started. Rock'n'roll is the last of the elements to wake up and it had to do with the record companies, making sure their stars were given the attention not the bar music scene as folks like Elvis and Chuck Berry were originally considered and called! Edited by moshkito - March 24 2024 at 07:24 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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vladan3101
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Posted: March 23 2024 at 10:21 |
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What killed Prog
Rock Radio? After reading several books on the subject, the best answer I could
find is probably the one that Susan Douglas offered in hers: “ FM accounted for
one third of all radio listening but only 14% of all radio revenues” in 1974. I believe this is a
falsehood, as in LA, at least 2 stations were top, and in Santa Barbara one
station was top, and in SF there were a couple of stations that were up there. To my ears, it seems
like typical mis-information so “radio” business seems much more important than
the new music ... which of course, they were wrong about. The 14% number looked low to me too, so I chased Ms. Douglas’s original reference. It is cited in the book, let me see, it was “The Upbeat Tempo of FM 1974,” published in Broadcasting, Oct.1974, p. 41, see worldradiohistory.com/Archive-BC/BC-1974/1974-10-07-BC.pdf. Broadcasting was basically a trade journal, so I would tend to believe their numbers. I never said that Prog Rock FM radio was not popular. The first of two chapters on it chronicles its rise to the top, easiest to add another quote again:
What I believe Ms. Douglas was saying is that advertising revenue did not follow the market share proportionally, which does not surprise me. Before the 1967 FCC’s “non-duplication” ruling, FM was actually in crisis, and the stations were closing. I am giving some numbers from the 1950s to show that. Stereo and Prog Rock format probably saved FM, but once it took off, station owners started thinking about profits more than they did earlier in the 1970s.
One last topic ...
both electronics and progressive music NEVER DIED ... artists don’t disappear
of the face of the earth and please stop that commercial idea that progressive
died.... Not sure what you are referring to. I don’t believe I ever said that Prog Rock died (or Rock itself, as some claim). The book has one whole chapter that pretty much argues against that.
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moshkito
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Posted: March 23 2024 at 08:18 |
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HI, I believe this is a falsehood, as in LA, at least 2 stations were top, and in Santa Barbara one station was top, and in SF there were a couple of stations that were up there. To my ears, it seems like typical mis-information so "radio" business seems much more important than the new music ... which of course, they were wrong about. I can not say when the FM stations came to make some money, and you might have to ask Guy Guden about it, but it might have been when the stations "stopped" being about the local businesses, and started taking on the "national accounts" which added easily 10/20 times more money! So, there might not have been as much business, because all of these FM stations WERE LOCAL and served LOCAL INTERESTS, which died complete when the National Accounts showed up and the main killers? Army, Navy, Pepsi and Coke. A couple of years later it didn't matter ... no local place of business could afford the higher prices and a year or two later the great American Corporate Rape of FM Radio took place, when the major companies bought all the FM stations and turn them into the repetitive crap of today as a "Classic" station. The worst example of it all was the incredible dismantling of KMET in LA and no one gave a damn, and the big name company owner didn't care what anyone thought, and the next day the station only had washing machine music called New Age ... One last topic ... both electronics and progressive music NEVER DIED ... artists don't disappear of the face of the earth and please stop that commercial idea that progressive died. It continued, hower it did not have the advantage of FM radio anymore since it had gone "Classic" already ... and you only need to look at the amount of music discussed, sold and found these days, to realize it did not die. A lot of commercial interests like the idea that it died, so their product would look better ... and its sales prettier. I do with, and this is not a thought about you at all, that we had more respect for the ART FORM ... we don't and continually think that it died, when the arts NEVER die, they might change some clothing, but they never die! And I am just not sure that you know, or understand that. It is an important moment for the 80's, but the fact that today, that material is better known than ever supports the idea that it never died ... and I really am not sure why folks think that it died, unless they are proactively suggesting that the record companies and commercial interests were right and all the artists were idiots and megalomaniacs. That's just crazy!!!
Edited by moshkito - March 23 2024 at 08:18 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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vladan3101
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Posted: March 22 2024 at 09:55 |
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The book has two chapters on Prog FM radio, one dealing with
its (improbable) birth and the other with its demise. Besides changes in music
taste (and we must admit that the popularity of Prog Rock faded quite a bit later
in the 1970s), it was mainly due to commercialization
indeed. Let me quote one paragraph, it will be faster:
Based on his marketing research, Abrams came up with the incredibly successful ratings-wise “Superstar” radio format, with fixed playlists and no DJ escapades that almost all “classic rock” FM stations follow nowadays. The other reason was probably the digitalization of radio programming via software tools to automate the process. Let me quote the last paragraph of that chapter once again:
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moshkito
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Posted: March 22 2024 at 06:31 |
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Hi, All "Classic Rock" stations in America are corporate owned and generally do not play independent stuff, and their play list is related almost exclusively to the material their groups distribute around America, which is probably about 80% now ... and that number will slowly fade away and go down as more and more people buy things off downloads and pick up the CD online, so you don't have to wait for a distribution group to wake up. Regarding the "Classic Rock" plays, it is usually a tape (or mp3 these days ... cheaper!) and it is distributed the same. Just recently I wondered if the stuff repeated elsewhere and I marked down a sequence of pieces while at 7-11 getting some morning brew, and sure enough I got home and turned on my boom box and it was some FM station ... same sequence ... and that was 30 minutes after my 7-11 visit. The tough part is that the "ratings" system that many stations used years ago, is gone ... so if the Classic Station has only 5 listeners, you are still going to be fed the same stuff. We need another FM radio explosion, that is another new way to present music, and mostly new music as a angered response to the commercialization of it all, that is gone over the top and not given us anything new for some 30 to 40 years now. However, I don't see this happening since the majority of "radio" done on the Internet, is not different and understands what created "progressive" and "prog" which was to disdain all the rules and do something else. What you find in 9 out of 10 shows is just a bunch of songs, and too many of them have a similar sound ... and that's the difference .... in the old days, on any FM station in 1074/1975 or so, you would hear 10 completely different things ... and an hour has passed by before you noticed it. We have to revolt to the commercialization of all this by corporate groups and their controls, but before we do that we need a new FCC since the folks running it are the same folks that are a part of the major music corporations! Edited by moshkito - March 22 2024 at 06:32 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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richardh
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Posted: March 21 2024 at 23:35 |
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Freeman was my entry point for prog pretty much. Famously he played the whole of Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here on his show when it was first released and it later became his favourite album. ELP - Brain Salad Surgery was also an album he championed and also listed as a personal favourite.
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Gerinski
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Posted: March 21 2024 at 11:17 |
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Hi Vladan, congratulations for that first 5-star review! Receiving positive reviews is very rewarding, my book has got so far 19 reviews of which 17 are 5-stars (and 1 of the others is because the person received a copy with bad printing quality). And the Spanish version has 18 reviews all of them 5-stars.
Honestly I didn't order it yet, it's not a cheap book, even less considering shipping to Spain, but it stays on my wish list. Regarding radio stations playing prog, nowadays it's indeed unthinkable listening to prog on any regular FM stations, but fortunately we have internet radio which did not exist back then, and there are a few dedicated to prog.
Edited by Gerinski - March 21 2024 at 11:30 |
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vladan3101
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Posted: March 21 2024 at 10:41 |
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I remember Freeman, not as well as Peel, but I remember him well enough. Just did a search, he is mentioned several times in the book. I don’t recall him playing the EL&P albums, but I remember days when we could hear the entire “Tarkus” and “Pictures at an Exhibition” on the radio. Scott Muni did the same for them in the USA, he is even mentioned on the EL&P's page on Wikipedia for doing that. It bothers me tremendously that no such thing is possible on any radio programs these days. “Classic Rock” FM stations would play some excerpts here and there, but never a full-length piece if it is longer than maybe 10 minutes. I caught “Thick as a Brick” on Deep Tracks on Sirius XM some time ago, and even they faded it out halfway through the first side. |
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moshkito
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Posted: March 20 2024 at 19:51 |
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Hi, I miss, so much, the incredible feel of the early FM stations and the local station Guy Guden was on, I think that a lot of the stuff and I think we covered a lot of what was in Moby Disk (legendary importer of music in the early 70's!!! in Van Nuys), which of course, today, it is all visible and a lot of it has been put on a CD so we end up not missing it. The sadness I feel is a lot of the shows in the Internet, these days, do not have a good enough variety and what I would think ... a crazy attitude ... towards all definitions of music, and SPECIALLY the bizarre top ten that we believe in ... and still post every month, and my issue is that other than a handful of us actually listen to some of that stuff, and more importantly, so much of it is a copy of the same sound and attitude in a lot of music. It was really exciting in 1974 and beyond for many years, that for a really good amount of time you would hear 20 different things in one night, and not one of them sound the same as the other. Another important part of Guy's shows, that are not quite visible today since the progressive/prog audience is attuned to "song" (ave 4 to 5 or 6 minutes so it can be considered prog!), and Guy was quite different ... when Crime of the Century came out, he played it in its entirety, not to mention crying at home (we were roomates then) by listening to it, and later he got a copy of TLLDOB before the station, and he immediately played the whole thing when he went on at midnight ... and later said that he would play it again later in the morning. You have to let go of the rules and the "choices" with the marks and numbers ... to be able to do something different, and even today, I don't think anyone plays so many different things as Guy does ... heck I'm listening to a Twitch show from 08/12/2019 right now ... Electronics were important, and there was not a single Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze album (and many others!) that did not get played in their entirety during his time ... and the sad thing is that the top this and that disdains a lot of electronic stuff, and guess who has a direct link to various German labels and still plays the stuff left and right ... amidst other things these days, but the contrast is enchanting and very different ... this is not "the son of KC" show, or something called progressive presented in regular format (ave 5 to 6 minutes) which, SADLY ENOUGH will end up excluding a lot of electronic music ... heck I even got Beaver & Krause in those days, Artemyev amidst many other electronic things, which I liked after I got better attuned to it ... and was a massive part of Guy's show ... heck .. No Pusseefooting was played too in its entirety, not just a sample! Maybe I'll end up doing an electronic show, but I don't have enough of the more recent German things ... to really be able to make it better and more special ... I imagine that no one around has as much as Guy does these days! My take, btw, is that rock'n'roll tried hard to kill electronic stuff, so one band has a beautiful opening for 30 seconds and that's it for electronics ... kinda sad ... really!
Edited by moshkito - March 20 2024 at 19:53 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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richardh
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Posted: March 20 2024 at 18:38 |
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I first heard ELP on Alan 'Fluff' Freeman's Saturday afternoon show. He used to devote the entire 2 hours to rock and prog. John Peel once quipped that Fluff was the man who discovered Emerson, Lake and Palmer when they were only millionaires and turned them into multi millionaires. I used to listen to Radio Luxembourg a lot when I was 12/13 years old, so much better than mainstream BBC radio if you wanted to hear the more interesting pop/rock bands such as Sparks and 10CC. By some strange quirk of fate I was able to pick up Radio Caroline in the early 80's at least for a while even though I lived nowhere near the South East of England. They were still playing a lot of prog stuff even then.
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vladan3101
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Posted: March 20 2024 at 11:01 |
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The book
has two 5-star ratings so far, but it just received its first review: Reviewed
in the United States on March 14, 2024
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Gerinski
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Posted: February 06 2024 at 02:56 |
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Congratulations for having solved the Emerson pic rights issue, it's a wonderful pic, very famous and immediately recognizable and it makes for a great book cover. I had already seen the miniature keyboards by Ronaldo Lopes Teixeira, they are amazing!
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vladan3101
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Posted: February 05 2024 at 21:43 |
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I just ran into this quote from a different thread (related to
Gerinski's book), and the problem sounded so familiar. I first wanted a photo
of Emerson playing the Modular Moog on the cover, but could not find the
copyright owner. Then I tried the photo of Wakeman surrounded by his keyboards
from the inner sleeve of "Six Wives of Henry VIII," but could not get
in touch with the photographer (Ruan O'Lochlainn). After I learned about the Google Lens
option to search for a picture, not just the text, I found that Emerson's photo
from the cover, reproduced hundreds of times all over the internet seemingly
without any permissions, was taken by Barrie Wentzell, who worked for the
"Melody Maker" in the 1970s and had his own website. After some
negotiations, I managed to secure the right to reproduce it and received a
high-res copy. Some parts of this quest are chronicled in sections 7.5 and the
Acknowledgment, but the fun part is that I did get permission to reproduce
a reconstruction of the "Six Wives" sleeve after all (Fig. 7-31). It
was made by Ronaldo Lopes Teixeira, who makes mock-ups of various electronic
keyboard instruments in the 1/6 scale as a hobby, which I found
fascinating (www.facebook.com/ronaldo.lopesteixeira). |
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Gerinski
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Posted: January 30 2024 at 13:29 |
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moshkito wrote: