Should Sun Ra be included in Progarchives?

Sun Ra's career spanned over six decades, during which he explored various musical genres and styles, including free jazz, avant-garde music, and electronic music. If progressive music is defined more broadly as music that pushes boundaries and explores new sonic territories, then Sun Ra’s inclusion becomes more compelling. Sun Ra's influence on artists such as King Crimson and Pink Floyd is well documented. Not to mention his influence on German Krautrock artists, which is quite obvious. His use of electronic sounds and unconventional instrumentation anticipated trends in progressive rock. Furthermore, his exploratory approach to music and his refusal to be pigeonholed into any one genre make him a fitting addition to a genre that values innovation and experimentation. Inspired by spacey themes, many of his compositions featured intricate arrangements and complex structures. There are arguments to be made for Sun Ra’s inclusion in the progressive music canon.

Post your opinions and discuss.

siLLy puPPy wrote: While there are a few releases that could technically be considered jazz-fusion, keep in mind that the category was never designed to be an all-encompassing one and only represents the biggest names that delivered well known jazz-fusion classics or delved more on the rock side of the equation.

Whether or not you consider Sun Ra to be progressive, you have to acknowledge that he is a subgenre unto himself. To be honest, I never thought of Sun Ra as a firm fit in the Jazz Rock/Fusion category on Progarchives. If we leave aside the Prog-Related and Proto-Prog sections, in which there is a wide range of quite different "related" artists, Sun Ra, in my humble opinion, would primarily fit into the PA's Avant-Prog section.

Sean Trane wrote: As much as I love John and Alice Coltrane (that's the "Trane" in my username) and their respective oeuvres, common sense tells us that neither (and that would include Pharoah Sanders as well) fit the scope of the site.

I'm afraid that in this particular thread, Coltrane cannot be compared to Sun Ra, despite the fact that Coltrane was a major player in the creation of free jazz and modal jazz and that his music explored spiritual themes. Sun Ra was a highly experimental artist who blended electronic music and avant-garde jazz and incorporated elements of afrofuturism into that mix, creating a unique blend of cosmic sounds and philosophical concepts that are, unlike Coltrane, close to the idiom of the more experimental side of progressive music. German Krautrock comes to mind. I mean, I posted above the "Atlantis" album from 1969. There is a title track that is truly groundbreaking in the progressive music sense because it showcases Sun Ra's innovative approach to experimental jazz, blending elements of space sounds, early electronic, and psychedelic music. The track features a fusion of jazz, trippy grooves, and spacey sounds, creating a unique and otherworldly listening experience. Sun Ra's use of the clavinet, a new solar sound instrument at the time, adds a futuristic and cosmic dimension to the music. The musicianship on "Atlantis" is exceptional and progressive in the style of Krautrock, which is yet to come. While listening to the 21-minute "Atlantis" track, you get the impression that something creepy is coming from the depths of the Atlantic Ocean to the surface.

Hi,

Edited by moshkito - May 16 2024 at 17:48

Sean Trane wrote: ... But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, Terry Riley (oops he's in), Moondog, Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, Philipp Glass,  LaMonte Young, Pierre Henry, etc...  .... and even Fela Kuti I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus.  in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened. .

Sean Trane wrote: ... But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, Terry Riley (oops he's in), Moondog, Wendy Carlos, Isao Tomita, Philipp Glass,  LaMonte Young, Pierre Henry, etc...  .... and even Fela Kuti I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus.  in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened.

moshkito wrote: Moyan wrote: ... While Erich von Däniken is often credited with popularising the idea of ancient astronauts and extraterrestrial influences on human history through his book "Chariots of the Gods?" published in 1968, Sun Ra's discussions predate von Däniken's work. Sun Ra's musings on these topics can be seen as a precursor to the mainstream fascination with ancient astronaut theories that gained popularity in the late 20th century. ... "Dance of the Cosmo-Aliens" from Sun Ra and His Myth Science Arkestra's album "Disco 3000", recorded live in Milan in 1978 Hi, I wonder if you found the real "issue" ... bands with very strong spiritual this and that, and here, many folks dislike that ... TFTO is a perfect example, but then, Roundabout has none of that stuff. Sun Ra has too much of that spiritual stuff, even if we have no idea what it is or means. But, heck, we allow MAGMA to do it ... so why not Sun Ra? But we love the 2nd rate stuff quoting of a badly translated book for many years! Just weird ... totally weird ... as to Sun Ra not being included ... though I hardly think that Mr. Sun Ra is worried about PA and their folks that make those decisions. His grave is already appreciated ... many on PA? Maybe they lack some of that spirit of greatness? I have no idea how to word the choices more often than not, but I bet that 9 out of 10 top "numbers" will all find their way to the database. 50 years later, today's audience finds Sun Ra poor ... and many folks don't like Miles improvising all over the place and having a laugh at music theory and a progressive definition!

Sun Ra, man, he’s like totally part of the progressive music scene, you know? His whole vibe with ancient civilizations and aliens was like a major deal for his artistry. He was all about this wild idea that he was sent down from Saturn as this spiritual guru and musician, dig it? This cosmic mythology totally shaped his stage name “Sun Ra” and the name of his band “The Arkestra.” Sun Ra was all about how these ancient civilizations were like way ahead of their time with universal knowledge that could be tapped into through music, man. He was super into cultures like Egypt, the places like the Giza Plateau where the Great Pyramids are located, or the ancient city of Sumer, and even parts of Ethiopia, such as Lalibela, drawing inspiration from them to create these intricate tunes with exotic scales. And let’s not forget his lyrics - always dropping hints about extraterrestrial beings and cosmic consciousness. 

siLLy puPPy wrote: ^ I’m the hugest Sun Ra and love most everything he’s done He was a significant innovator and deserves credit for many musical contributions However his works are not rooted in the world of jazz The reason he’s not on this site is because his variety of fusion music isn’t rooted in rock He dabbled in many ethnic musical styles but not one album I’ve heard would qualify as the jazz rock fusion that is suitable for PA He’s on Jazz Music Archives so anyone can find him there

Hey, dude, I totally get where you’re coming from with your opinion, but check it - rock music? It’s like totally vibing with those Afro-rhythms, man. You can feel that Sun Ra influence all up in there, right? And then you look at all these electronic music cats on Progarchives, and like, some of them ain’t really tapping into those roots, ya know? Not dissing the electronic wizards, they got their own groove in the progressive music scene for sure. But when you see them be of value in the database so much they even got their own spot labeled ‘progressive electronic,’ it kinda messes with your point, bro.

Great thread. In my humble opinion, Sun Ra's groundbreaking approach to music composition, thematic exploration of space, eclectic nature and atmosphere of his music, experimental and avantgarde attitude, and cultural commentary firmly position him within the late 60s and early 70s progressive music as a meta-genre, which could make Sun Ra's inclusion in Progarchives' "avant-prog" section not only justified but essential for a comprehensive understanding of this musical landscape.