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maani View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2005 at 01:35

Tony:

Yup, I was quite a champ...uh...oh, you said "chump."  Hmmm...

Peace.

P.S.  As an aside, apparently not everyone is enamored with Geldof and his ilk.  Here are two different articles from the NY Times today.  Note in the second one that Peter Gabriel is annoyed with Geldof (and is holding his own concert) for Geldof's snubbing of African acts.  Can you believe that?  Geldof - Mr. "I care so much for Africa" deliberately prevented African-based acts from joining in the Live8 concerts!  This certainly raises questions, doesn't it?:

Celebrities' Embrace of Africa Has Critics

LONDON, June 30 - It is virtually impossible these days to open a newspaper or turn on the television here without confronting the cavalier locks, rumpled visage and hectoring tones of Sir Bob Geldof, the former Boomtown Rats lead singer now cast by friends and foes alike as Africa's savior.

With awesome ubiquity - a rock concert here, a documentary there, interviews at every turn - he offers his listeners a blend of profanity, rage and messianic imprecation, urging the political leaders of the developed world to end Africa's poverty by rewriting the rules on aid, trade and debt. "To die of hunger is an intellectual absurdity and morally repulsive," he told the crowd last weekend at a rock concert in Glastonbury in western England.

This weekend, in anticipation of the annual summit meeting of the Group of 8 nations in Scotland next week, there are to be demonstrations and free concerts spanning the globe under the title Live 8. Beyond the high-sounding pronouncements, though, the last-minute series of events arranged by Sir Bob signals a profound and to some a worrisome shift in the realm of mass advocacy by the world's richest in the name of the poorest.

Celebrity and politics have merged, revolutionizing the aid business as much as the celebrity business. Today, no well-heeled rock or movie star can ignore the lure of association with a good cause; no politician can resist the siren call of stars whose message reaches an audience beyond the realm of formal politics. But aid specialists are questioning whether the emphasis on celebrities and one-time hyper events does not do more harm than good, distracting attention from the difficult, long-term problems. "We have given up on politicians as achievers of transformation," Chris Blackhurst, an editor, wrote in The Evening Standard of London. "In this age of celebrity, this summer, the celebrity has become king."

The alliance of forces focusing their demands on the Group of 8 leaders embraces cardinals and moviemakers, rock stars and Hollywood actors like Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, Al Pacino and Cameron Diaz. The events arranged by Sir Bob carry more than an echo of the Live Aid concerts he arranged 20 years ago in response to famine in Ethiopia.

Unlike the case at Live Aid, though, Sir Bob is not asking for money. This time he is seeking an overwhelming show of political support to remind Group of 8 leaders of the power they wield. Last weekend a prime-time television movie by Richard Curtis - a major Geldof ally and supporter of Britain's Make Poverty History campaign - illustrated some of the thinking.

Titled "The Girl in the Cafe," the movie, shown on the BBC and HBO, revolved around a fictional summit meeting in Reykjavik, Iceland, where romance between a meek middle-aged civil servant - Lawrence - and a mysterious young woman - Gina - intertwines with the politics of global poverty.

"Eight men in one room could quite literally save hundreds of millions of lives," Lawrence, played by Bill Nighy, says in the movie, echoing a campaign slogan.

Aid specialists are not nearly so confident, however. "It's a good thing, in that the focus is on Africa," said Richard Dowden, leader of the Royal African Society, a private policy research body. "The danger is that it concentrates on one big push, and if you don't get what you are asking for, you are setting yourself up for disillusionment."

Indeed, some fundamental assumptions of the campaign are also being challenged. Will good intentions be thwarted by corrupt governments? Can African administrations cope with a surge of increased aid? "The future of Africa is not going to be decided by rock concerts but by African politicians making good decisions," Mr. Dowden said.

Sir Bob dismisses those concerns. "I am withering in my scorn for the columnists who say, 'It's not going to work,' " he said. "Even if it doesn't work, what do they propose? Every night forever watching people live on TV dying on our screens?"

In fact, there are those who argue that doing something for the sake of it can be as damaging as doing nothing. Even the Live Aid concerts 20 years ago "did harm as well as good," said David Rieff, a New York-based writer and authority on humanitarian aid. "The Live 8 phenomenon is part of this Western fantasy of omnipotence," Mr. Rieff continued in a telephone interview, "a politically correct version of the imperial impulse to give some money and all will be well, as if the problems of Africa are just the results of our not paying enough attention."

But, Mr. Rieff acknowledged, "Live Aid became the prototype for a new kind of celebrity activism - from Richard Gere campaigning for Tibet to benefit concerts for the Asian tsunami." He might also have mentioned Sharon Stone's campaign for mosquito nets to fight malaria or Ms. Jolie supporting refugees.

On Saturday, in Edinburgh, south of Gleneagles where the real meeting will take place, tens of thousands of people are being enjoined by the Make Poverty History campaign to wear white T-shirts and form a human loop around the entire city - magnifying the white wrist band that is one of the campaign's motifs.

"Governments only respond when their citizens put pressure on them," said Kumi Naidoo, a prominent South African activist who is the leader of the Global Call to Action against Poverty, which unites thousands of volunteer, labor union, church and not-for-profit groups in more than 70 countries. "The best chance we have is to mobilize the biggest amount of pressure on the G-8."

Church leaders, too, have joined the calls on Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain and President Bush to agree on measures to eradicate poverty. "For the first time in history, humanity possesses the information, knowledge, technology and resources to bring the worst of global poverty to an end," said a statement on Wednesday from the Trans-Atlantic Forum on Poverty, a group of American, African and British religious leaders. The alliances might once have seemed improbable.

Prime Minister Blair has put Africa along with global warming at the head of the summit meeting's agenda.

To some, the links with politicians seem too cozy. In Ireland, Bono has faced criticism from people like Niall Stokes, the editor of the Irish music magazine Hot Press. "Politics and rock 'n' roll don't go together all that well most of the time," he said.

-----------------

Bob Geldof, Charity Saint and Foul - Mouthed Bully

By REUTERS

Filed at 2:03 p.m. ET

LONDON (Reuters) - For someone so often called a saint, Bob Geldof has an uncanny ability to irritate and offend.

The Irish rocker has bullied and badgered his way into the history books, pulling off the Live Aid rock concerts 20 years ago and promising to do something even bigger on Saturday with 10 Live 8 gigs to raise awareness of African poverty.

The 50-year-old Irishman seems like a walking contradiction.

He was the quintessential anti-establishment figure after co-founding the Boomtown Rats band in 1975, railing against authority and bemoaning the unfairness of it all.

Yet he has been knighted and rubs shoulders with world leaders, as in a studio show on the MTV channel on Thursday where he extolled British Prime Minister Tony Blair for pushing for more aid for Africa.

His bedraggled hair, disheveled suits and penchant for swearing on live television are not the norm for a millionaire in the media business.

In interviews he can be offensive to journalists in one sentence and speak with tenderness about his wife Paula Yates in the next. She died of a drug overdose in 2000, having already left Geldof for Australian rock star Michael Hutchence.

Where apologists and critics agree is on Geldof's single-mindedness, without which he could not have become one of the world's highest-profile charity organizers.

Musician Peter Gabriel, hosting a separate Live 8 gig for African musicians after Geldof came under fire for sidelining artists from the continent, called him ``Chairman Bob'' in a joking reference to his authoritarian style.

``We asked for Bob's blessing which he freely gave; that was in his role as pope.''

MOTIVES QUESTIONED

The fact that Geldof's music career was in decline when he launched the Live Aid charity gig means his motives have often been questioned.

Long before Live Aid made him a household name, his reasons for forming a band were more selfish.

``Most people get into bands for three very simple rock and roll reasons: to get laid, to get fame, and to get rich,'' he told a music magazine in 1977.

Explaining those remarks 25 years on, he said they were the ``three things that I couldn't get growing up Catholic, in poverty, in Ireland.''

But few doubt his passion about fighting poverty, famine and disease in Africa, a continent that has fascinated him since he saw a newsreel of the famine in Ethiopia in 1984.

``When I saw the pictures of Ethiopia I decided to do something other than just put my hand in my pocket. I sat there feeling horrified, ashamed and disgusted,'' he said.

Later that year he gathered pop stars to record ``Do They Know it's Christmas?'' which raised 8 million pounds ($14 million) for charity, but it was Live Aid in 1985 that proved the defining moment in Geldof's career.

Watched by 1.5 billion people and raising $100 million for Africa's starving, the gigs in London and Philadelphia brought together the likes of Mick Jagger, David Bowie and The Who in an unprecedented display of altruism.

On Saturday, the idea is even more ambitious. Around 1,000 acts in 10 venues, from Tokyo in the east to near Toronto in the west, will try to put pressure on leaders meeting next week to do more to fight poverty.

``I can't wait for the end. I'm so tired,'' Geldof told an audience of young people on MTV. ``I tell you something ... you will never see it again. It will be the greatest concert ever.''

STRUCK BY TRAGEDY

Robert Frederick Xenon Geldof was born in 1954 in Ireland. His mother died when he was young and he had to fend for himself from an early age.

After a stint as a music journalist he became a chart star himself with The Boomtown Rats before Band Aid and Live Aid.

In 1986 he married Paula Yates, with whom he had three children, and Geldof was affected deeply when Yates left him for INXS star Hutchence.

``I was bereft beyond belief but I understood that she had to go now because she didn't love me ... and it was like this great joy went out of my life,'' he said in a recent interview.

Geldof fought for custody of his own daughters and the child Yates had with Hutchence before the Australian died in a hotel room in mysterious circumstances in 1997.

Three years later, Yates also died.

Geldof lives in London with his partner Jeanne Marine.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2005 at 04:31
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Radioactive Toy Radioactive Toy wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I have Pmd u Tone, but why has your thread from yesterday been deleted?

 

BLASPHEMY!!!! BE DAMNED THY!!! ZE COUNTER IS MINE!!!!

Erm.... *cough*..........Hi there Toy

well you looked really cool and stuff.. I already was thinking.. who is behind that brillant concept?

well I'll hop in some time here.. but for me it's too damn crouded in here.. + the new forum sucks monkeyballs


Reed's failed joke counter:
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R.I.P. You could have reached infinity....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2005 at 17:01
maani: good articles 

Once the African situation is under control, maybe Geldof can attack the poverty of quality of most of the music released for such causes.

I think you are right in not wanting to censor posts simply based on the emotions of the member base...but aren't the posts in question just plain spam, which can be removed without any question of morality entering the picture? Certainly there exists a definite amount of discretion on your part as to how to interpret the rules of the forum. Keeping these posts may seem to reflect an unwillingness to interpret the rules in favor of a genuine appeal from the member base (perhaps not a majority view, but I'd wager that the majority view on almost any subject is "I don't really care").

I respect you for wanting to show that you will not be bullied into a decision, and for championing free speech, and it's a shame that it seems more like an issue of pride (or a contest of wills?) at this point. If you have made the determination that the posts are genuinely useful or important to the forum community, then there's not much more to say; I understand that an administrator can't be seen as being too easily influenced.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2005 at 17:15

Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

maani: good articles 

Once the African situation is under control, maybe Geldof can attack the poverty of quality of most of the music released for such causes.

I think you are right in not wanting to censor posts simply based on the emotions of the member base...but aren't the posts in question just plain spam, which can be removed without any question of morality entering the picture? Certainly there exists a definite amount of discretion on your part as to how to interpret the rules of the forum. Keeping these posts may seem to reflect an unwillingness to interpret the rules in favor of a genuine appeal from the member base (perhaps not a majority view, but I'd wager that the majority view on almost any subject is "I don't really care").

I respect you for wanting to show that you will not be bullied into a decision, and for championing free speech, and it's a shame that it seems more like an issue of pride (or a contest of wills?) at this point. If you have made the determination that the posts are genuinely useful or important to the forum community, then there's not much more to say; I understand that an administrator can't be seen as being too easily influenced.

It is an unfair fight really.Even wheeling out the "big guns" has not dented the Monolith.

I would keep this thread going just to keep James posting...........

Until We Meet Again,James !

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2005 at 23:51

Tony:

Don't you mean the "Maani"-lith? 

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 06:31
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Tony:

Don't you mean the "Maani"-lith? 

Peace.

Damn you!

I cannot believe I didnt think of that! See,you've sapped all my strength.....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 09:50

Mr Vibrating: Come in.

Man: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?

Mr Vibrating: I told you once.

Man: No you haven't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I have.

Man: When?

Mr Vibrating: Just now.

Man: No you didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: You didn't

Mr Vibrating: I did!

Man: You didn't!

Mr Vibrating: I'm telling you I did!

Man: You did not!!

Mr Vibrating: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?

Man: Oh, just the five minutes.

Mr Vibrating: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.

Man: You most certainly did not.

Mr Vibrating: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.

Man: No you did not.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: No you didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: No you didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: No you didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

Man: You didn't.

Mr Vibrating: Did.

Man: Oh look, this isn't an argument.

Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.

Man: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: It is!

Mr Vibrating: It is not.

Man: Look, you just contradicted me.

Mr Vibrating: I did not.

Man: Oh you did!!

Mr Vibrating: No, no, no.

Man: You did just then.

Mr Vibrating: Nonsense!

Man: Oh, this is futile!

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: I came here for a good argument.

Mr Vibrating: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.

Man: An argument isn't just contradiction.

Mr Vibrating: It can be.

Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.

Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

Man: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'

Mr Vibrating: Yes it is!

Man: No it isn't!

Man: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

(short pause)

Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

Man: It is.

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Man: Now look.

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Mr Vibrating: I'm afraid it was.

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(Pause)

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(pays money)

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Mr Vibrating: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

Man: I just paid!

Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.

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Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.

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Mr Vibrating: Well, you didn't pay.

Man: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!

Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

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Mr Vibrating: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.

Man: Oh I've had enough of this.

Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

Man: Oh Shut up.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 10:49

Another Python classic....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 11:24
No,it isn't!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 11:26
It is !! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 11:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 11:28

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

No,it isn't!

Oh,shut up!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 11:32
 I came here for a good argument.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2005 at 11:41
No you didnīt !!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2005 at 06:00

Maani wrote:
Yes, there are "professional" scalpers who wait in line for long periods (and/or pay other people to wait in line for them) in order to get as many tickets as they can at face value so they can sell them at inflated prices.  And I consider this practice utterly repugnant, and would support any legislation and/or enforcement to make it illegal - even if it lowered my chances of getting a ticket from one of them at some future point, should I really want to see the show.

 

Phewwwwww!!! You finally admitted to that !!!! You had us worried there, for a while, and most of us were wondering if you were still fit to be a minister. You sure were "Maani-lithic", on that issue.

As for the Floyd debate , as I said , them playing in 25 000 venues is highly unlikely, so your example was awry right from the start.. Furthermore , for the Lapse Of Reason tour , they had booked two concert in the CNE Grandstand (more or less 60 000 capacity) in Toronto back in 87 and I had no chance to get a tiket since I was on holidays - quickly sold-out, too. Then the promoters added a third show (that became the first of three shows as it predated the other two) , I got a ticket and the show was about 3/4 full. So the demand had been met since the third show did not sold-out. Roughly 160 000 tickets for a seven to nine million people area (roughly southern Ontario) , since shows in Montreal and Buffalo were programmed...........

 

 

If GG were to reform , they would not do it for one concert , but the whole tour , so you would have a choice and a chance for tickets , venues and dates.

I chose to avoid the English concert for the VDGG reunion , and have to choose between Paris and Amsterdam, since they will skip Belgium this time. I chose the later.. Where I will meet the numerous Dutch PA members

 

BTW , the Geldoff article you printed here, is the exact reason why I called Geldoff a fake much like Bono and Di in a post earlier in this thread. They use the medias to their own sake/end.

Peace to you.

let's just stay above the moral melee
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2005 at 09:41

Sean:

Actually, just adding another show or two still does not take up all the "slack": some people are still going to be shut out.  In addition, simply because a group is playing a "tour" and not just a concert in, say, Toronto, doesn't mean someone has the means or time to travel to, say, Chicago to see the tour there.  So simply having other "choices" of dates and venues is often useless.

Re Geldof, Bono and Di, I believe you are "broad-brushing" here.  Geldof is almost certainly well-intentioned, but probably has an agenda.  Di spoke out for a couple of good causes, and probably had a truly good heart.

However, I separate Bono from this group because he, of all of them, has truly put his money - and time, energy, celebrity, etc. - where his mouth is on an ongoing consistent basis.  He was been tireless in his campaign to get the World Bank and others to forgive much of the Third World debt - and he was successful.  True, others spoke up as well, but he was the acknowledged leader of that campaign - acknowedged even by the world leaders who eventually joined him and made it happen.

Now he is putting his time, energy, money and celebrity behind the poverty issue, and is having an effect once again.  And although he jumped on this particular bandwagon after some others had started it (including Rev. Jim Wallis and the Call to Renewal group, perhaps the most powerful anti-poverty "lobby" in the world), he has emerged as an important voice in that movement.  Indeed, Live8 could not (or at least would not) have happened without him, since Geldof was inspired by the work that Bono and others were doing on the issue of world poverty.

No, Bono does not belong in a group that you are labelling "fake."  Indeed, none of them are "fake," though, as stated, Bono is the only one who has made it his business not simply to speak about the issue, but to force meetings with world leaders, ecomonic leaders, etc. in an effort to increase both their awareness and their willingness to do something about it.

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2005 at 10:02

Originally posted by Velvetclown Velvetclown wrote:

No you didnīt !!!!

Yes I did!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2005 at 10:05

Linking those three was not my idea but the "seller" (St 24 if I remember well his ID) of those now-infamous tickets that have created the debate in the first place. I just mentionned that it was the onl;y thing that was half-true.

I did not shed a tear for Di , because : she who lived by the medias , shall die by the medias. She was the first one to use them , but also to cry for the invasion of her private life. Sure , she had a few charities , all royalties are recommended to take one or two causes , create a foundation or two , spend a day or two on it (maybe get paid for those days) because it is good for their image.

Geldoff swore the money we gave him in 85 would be used correctly. correct me if I'm wrong , but most food rotted in warehouses or ended up getting sold to the famined people. OK , he was naive but he said that he knew of the problem and would get around it. So much for that. I also can agree with his opinions about third world debt , but he needs to get back to all the talk shows (that pays very well).

As for Bono, if he carers so much for the fans , tickets scalped , face value of tickets at $ 90.00 and an atrocious sound (and no second show) , left most people with an ounce of good common sense in Brussels a taste of rot in the mouth. As for the rest of his causes , he was once quoted as to say that the Bono character was really a lot more fascinating that HE really was. So he admits playing a character. I still have the article/book (Assayas I believe collected those thoughts) and I can send it if you want ! Sorry but in french, only.

Fake was meant not as an insult , but putting on a face for the medias.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2005 at 15:49
Sean: I agree. It's much harder to lie to people about your good intentions if you don't have convincing proof.

There's a parallel universe where the Boomtown Rats were able to give Geldof all the attention he craved, and he didn't need to become the Bill Graham of charitable events. Luckily (because the Rats really did suck most of the time), we're stuck in this universe...so we'll just have to hope some good comes out of it. As far as actually helping people, I do believe that he's accomplishing something, so I can't be TOO critical...I just don't think that the actual aid generated equals the cost of the spectacle. I tuned in briefly to see Madonna with her arm around a 'rehabilitated victim of poverty', who looked quite fashionable... and found myself wondering whether pop culture missionaries will take over for religious ones- i.e, do insidious damage to other cultures for centuries to come in the name of saving them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2005 at 16:05

Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

Sean: I agree. It's much harder to lie to people about your good intentions if you don't have convincing proof.

There's a parallel universe where the Boomtown Rats were able to give Geldof all the attention he craved, and he didn't need to become the Bill Graham of charitable events. Luckily (because the Rats really did suck most of the time), we're stuck in this universe...so we'll just have to hope some good comes out of it. As far as actually helping people, I do believe that he's accomplishing something, so I can't be TOO critical...I just don't think that the actual aid generated equals the cost of the spectacle. I tuned in briefly to see Madonna with her arm around a 'rehabilitated victim of poverty', who looked quite fashionable... and found myself wondering whether pop culture missionaries will take over for religious ones- i.e, do insidious damage to other cultures for centuries to come in the name of saving them.

That's why I like you James. You're always upbeat and optimistic.

Seriously, though, once again, you give us something to think about.

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