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mirco
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2005
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 819
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Posted: March 13 2005 at 15:55 |
I stongly recommend Race with the devil in a spanish highway. Pure speed, but some quality!
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Please forgive me for my crappy english!
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JCProg
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 03 2004
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 115
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Posted: March 13 2005 at 16:29 |
lucas wrote:
Fusion can be regarded as a subgenre of prog rock. | Lost Tribe's cd's have some rap on them, so I guess fusion can also be regarded as a subgenre of rap.
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: March 13 2005 at 18:47 |
billyshears'67 wrote:
Di Meola is Fusion! So are all those other aforementioned artists that
are on this site, that are fusion. Don't forget Mahavishnu Orchestra
are also on the site and the Dixie Dregs. Although the Dregs add a bit
more to the mix, so that's understandable. I'm actually surprised
Weather Report or Herbie Hancock hasn't gotten on the site,
considering all these other fusion artists.
Keep fusion out of the archives, is what I say. I love fusion, I don't
like them being misrepresented here (for those who don't know the
difference).
Peace & take care
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Not all fusion is rock, remember. Clearly, Mahavishnu is, and WR isn't.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Soulman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 22 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 290
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Posted: March 14 2005 at 00:47 |
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: March 14 2005 at 17:43 |
We should change the name of this forum to fusionarchives.com. I had a lot of musician friends I was playing in jazz groups who like the fusion jazz fusion jazz style of the seventies but when it came to bands like Gentle Giant, Tull, Yes, Rush, Genesis, ELP etc. they were never interested. I guess progressive rock, with exceptions of course, is more a listener`s style of music.
Artists like Al DiMeola, Coryell, Ponty, UZEB, McLaughlin and the like as far as I`m concerned are jazz players and I`ve never seen any of the being categorized otherwise in music stores, encyclopedias etc.
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: March 14 2005 at 17:55 |
I think the main problem is that "fusion" is simply too broad and
covers too many styles of music. All progressive rock is undeniably
rock... fusion is jazz, rock, r&b, and world styles all blended
together. How are Weather Report and Mahavishnu anything alike?
Clearly, one plays electronic-world fusion and the other plays rock
fusion. Fusion, in other words, means basically nothing. I think this
forum should call the particular subgenre "jazz-rock" as opposed to
"fusion". I would contend that fusion is not rock, whereas jazz-rock,
as the name implies, is rock, and as the jazz implies, is clearly a
progressive style of rock. For this reason I would nominate Al Di Meola
for the archives, for he definitely a rock musician, whereas Stanley
Clarke cannot really be considered a rock musician; listen to his
albums, and you'll know what I mean. Likewise, Tony William's Lifetime
plays rock; Weather Report does not.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: March 14 2005 at 19:09 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
We should change the name of this forum to fusionarchives.com. I had a lot of musician friends I was playing in jazz groups who like the fusion jazz fusion jazz style of the seventies but when it came to bands like Gentle Giant, Tull, Yes, Rush, Genesis, ELP etc. they were never interested. I guess progressive rock, with exceptions of course, is more a listener`s style of music.
Artists like Al DiMeola, Coryell, Ponty, UZEB, McLaughlin and the like as far as I`m concerned are jazz players and I`ve never seen any of the being categorized otherwise in music stores, encyclopedias etc.
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Not suprising VB since those bands are mainly composition bands and your friends sound like they like a loose structure with improv so it is no suprise that Genesis would sound as boring to them as mozart did. And when did anyone who likes prog agree on everything? I think fusion is that fusing jazz and rock. I don't think that the progressive movement was/is limited to classical structures and devices only. Just because some took it in other directions or actually moved jazz closer to rock in no means lesssons their contribution to the genre. They are lumped together with jazz artists because I think it was the way their record companies marketed them. As for my memory all the same people who saw ELP, Genesis etc also saw Weather Report and Return to Forever.
Edited by Garion81
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Sweetnighter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1298
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Posted: March 14 2005 at 19:27 |
Garion81 wrote:
Vibrationbaby wrote:
We should change the name of this forum to fusionarchives.com. I had
a lot of musician friends I was playing in jazz groups who like
the fusion jazz fusion jazz style of the seventies but when it
came to bands like Gentle Giant, Tull, Yes, Rush, Genesis,
ELP etc. they were never interested. I guess progressive rock, with
exceptions of course, is more a listener`s style of music.
Artists like Al DiMeola, Coryell, Ponty, UZEB, McLaughlin and the
like as far as I`m concerned are jazz players and I`ve never seen any
of the being categorized otherwise in music stores, encyclopedias etc.
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Not suprising VB since those bands are mainly composition bands and
your friends sound like they like a loose structure with improv so it
is no suprise that Genesis would sound as boring to them as mozart
did. And when did anyone who likes prog agree on everything?
I think fusion is that fusing jazz and rock. I don't think
that the progressive movement was/is limited to classical structures
and devices only. Just because some took it in other directions
or actually moved jazz closer to rock in no means lesssons their
contribution to the genre. They are lumped together with jazz artists
because I think it was the way their record companies marketed
them. As for my memory all the same people who saw ELP, Genesis
etc also saw Weather Report and Return to Forever. |
well said
I think the jazz element in prog rock is highly overlooked
on these boards. People ask why the US didn't produce more prog? Its
because all US prog was in the silly jazz section! I won't start any
"petitions" or anything, but I do feel that Tony William's Lifetime, Al
Di Meola, and Allan Holdsworth should be in the archives.
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I bleed coffee. When I don't drink coffee, my veins run dry, and I shrivel up and die. "Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso? Is that like the bank of Italian soccer death or something?" -my girlfriend
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 15 2005 at 01:19 |
I think that nobody really knows what a guitar album is until they listen Friday Night in San Francisco featuring Al DiMeola, John McLaughlin and Paco de Lucía.
When I listened this album for the first time I was learning guitar, but threw away the poor instrument after playing Mediterranean Sundance/Rio Ancho in my turntable, a track where the three play together, knew that was impossible for me to reach that level.
Don't care if it's prog' flamenco, fusion or whatever, it's a fu**ing mastepiece.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12805
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Posted: March 15 2005 at 06:23 |
Sweetnighter wrote:
Not all fusion is rock, remember. Clearly, Mahavishnu is, and WR isn't.
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Wooo, some sublety there Sweetnighter - personally felt Johnson and Pastorius put some rock into WR........... For clear water between jazz rock fusion and the rest of jazz fusion, I've found Jan Garbarek' variants to be generally rock-free.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12805
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Posted: March 15 2005 at 06:37 |
JCProg wrote:
lucas wrote:
Fusion can be regarded as a subgenre of prog rock.
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Lost Tribe's cd's have some rap on them, so I guess fusion can also be regarded as a subgenre of rap. |
Strange as it may seem Jazz Fusion is a sub division of jazz - Brian Glasser, the Joe Zawinul biographer (i.e. In A Silent Way), said it all to my mind: 'the last great movement in jazz was jazz rock fusion'.
By employing rock with their jazz, Lifetime, Soft Machine, MO, RTF and a little later Weather Report (mustn't forget Tasavallan Presidentti also in the ealry 70's), we prog fans who were also into jazz, readily accepted their music as progressive rock as well as jazz rock. Keith Emerson infusion of jazz into Nice's repertoise from 68 onwards (both in musical style and the session musicians employed on record), helped lay the foundations to this acceptance. The recent TV documentary Jazz Britannia, dealt pretty thoroughly with the subject in the second programme, citing for instance the early 60's bands of Georgie Fame and Graham Bond as 'jazz rock'.
Jazz (as Wynton Marsalis will reluctantly accept) is a great borrower and stealer of other forms of music - so is prog.
We get a similar debate wrt to prog folk and straight folk. It could be argued Bob Dylan should be included under the heading 'prog rock', because he fused folk with blues or rock or country........
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12805
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Posted: March 15 2005 at 06:38 |
mirco wrote:
I stongly recommend Race with the devil in a spanish highway. Pure speed, but some quality! |
Soon forgotten by its author it seems, if you read the liner notes wrt to the remake, Race With Devil On Turkish Highway - when Steve Vai of all people, had to remind ADM of the guitar riffs......................
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: March 15 2005 at 15:33 |
As of now the new name for this site is www. what is/what isn`t progarchives.com.
If you`re into the later Di Meola/McLaughlin/de Lucia guitar
trios you might want to check out Larry Coryell, John McLaughlin
and Paco de Lucia as well. I saw them in `79 or `80 at Theatre St.
Denis in Montreal (there`s also a DVD available) Di Meola/
McLaughlin/ de Lucia a few years later. Same intensity. Coryell ( in my
opinion one of the greatest improvisors on the instrument) has also
done a number of duets and trios with other great guitarists including
Bireli Lagrene, John Renbourn, Philip Catherine, Stephan Grossman,
Emily Remler and others. If you want to hear Larry and Philip Catherine
go at it with elctric guitars my recommendation is Coryell/Mouzon -
Back Together Again available on CD from Wounded Bird Records. If
anyone wants titles PM me because I`ve got a lot of this stuff.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: March 15 2005 at 15:44 |
lucas wrote:
Fusion can be regarded as a subgenre of prog rock.
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Only when it's progressive, surely? You might as well say that metal is a subgenre of prog rock, since some metal bands are progressive.
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Dan Bobrowski
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5243
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Posted: March 15 2005 at 17:02 |
goose wrote:
lucas wrote:
Fusion can be regarded as a subgenre of prog rock.
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Only when it's progressive, surely? You might as well say that metal is a subgenre of prog rock, since some metal bands are progressive.
| We do. It's called Prog-Metal. There are a few hundred of those bands it seems.
Fusion IS a sub-genre as well. Look at the birth of Jazz-Rock. Many of the players came up through the English Prog scene and evolved.
Even though I've never thought of Al DiMeola as prog, I have no hardlined reason to dismiss him either. For those who remember, I didn't push for Holdsworth's inclusion and you'll be hard pressed to find a bigger fan than I.
Edited by danbo
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: March 16 2005 at 15:58 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
I think that nobody really knows what a guitar album is until they listen Friday Night in San Francisco featuring Al DiMeola, John McLaughlin and Paco de Lucía.
When I listened this album for the first time I was learning guitar, but threw away the poor instrument after playing Mediterranean Sundance/Rio Ancho in my turntable, a track where the three play together, knew that was impossible for me to reach that level.
Don't care if it's prog' flamenco, fusion or whatever, it's a fu**ing mastepiece.
Iván
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Just bought that again after not having it for 20 years. What an unbelievable display of guitar virtuosity.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: March 16 2005 at 16:04 |
danbo wrote:
goose wrote:
lucas wrote:
Fusion can be regarded as a subgenre of prog rock.
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Only when it's progressive, surely? You might as well say that metal is a subgenre of prog rock, since some metal bands are progressive.
| We do. It's called Prog-Metal. There are a few hundred of those bands it seems.
Fusion IS a sub-genre as well. Look at the birth of Jazz-Rock. Many of the players came up through the English Prog scene and evolved.
Even though I've never thought of Al DiMeola as prog, I have no hardlined reason to dismiss him either. For those who remember, I didn't push for Holdsworth's inclusion and you'll be hard pressed to find a bigger fan than I.
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Holdsworth on his own is more jazz than rock or prog rock however his work with Caravan and UK no one disputes his inclusion. Although different music styles I find the same thing happened to Kerry Livgren. His solo stuff tends to be more rock so he is not included (mainly because he ends up doing allmost all of his own instrumentation) but both of his bands are included here Protokaw and Kansas. It happens.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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chorus of one
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 299
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Posted: March 17 2005 at 04:39 |
danbo wrote:
Fusion IS a sub-genre as well. Look at the birth of Jazz-Rock. Many of the players came up through the English Prog scene and evolved. | You're right, it is a sub-genre....of jazz. 'Many' of the players? The vast majority of musicians I consider as the leading innovators of fusion have nothing to do with English prog...who are you thinking of? If you're talking about Canterbury, that's not the same thing. Why the need to categorise other genres as sub-genres to your favourite? Superiority complex?
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12805
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Posted: March 17 2005 at 06:30 |
Garion81 wrote:
Holdsworth on his own is more jazz than rock or prog rock however his work with Caravan and UK no one disputes his inclusion.
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And I thought I had most Holdsworth records - which one with Caravan????
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The Owl
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 19 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 363
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Posted: March 17 2005 at 14:49 |
I'm probably risking eternal banishment from the forum, but this Owl for one CANNOT TOLERATE Al DiMeola at all! More than 10 seconds of him I start getting hot under the neck feathers and verrrryyy cranky!!!
To me, he's just a lot of w**kery, flashy speed, technique and ego, his compositions strike me as nothing more than textbook mathematical exercises with pseudo-latin grooves. I could handle him in the framework of RTF (the other guys seemed to keep his worst excesses in check), but on his own, AAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH! I guess the other thing that drives me NUTS aout him is his anal, uptight pick every last note technique, he sounds like a typewriter turned up to 11! It actually hurts my ears. Plus, a lot of his solos to me just lack melody and soul, and the never-ending speed is no help, I wish he'd learn to leave space between notes and learn to loosen up and stop being so anal about every note.
Rant over, back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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People are puzzled why I don't dig the Stones, well, I listened to the Stones, I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and--I Can't Get No Satisfaction! www.myspace.com/theowlsmusic
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