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Awesoreno View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I think the real trick is somehow making prog appear to be hip and relevant. I say appear to be as most modern pop/rock is nothing more than that but has a cool factor that is attractive to young people..

There are some bands that younger people are into but most seem to be on the metal side. Anything that's retro sounding or sounds like something their parents would listen to they would stay away from. Their loss.Unfortunately people in general can't really think for themselves but I think this is especially true  of younger people. They need some sort of validation(or green light)from others before they can listen to it. Music shouldn't be seen as some sort of fashion statement but for many people it is.

I agree that it's often used as a fashion statement, but I don't think it's a generational thing. This has always been the case. We like to think the late 60s and early 70s were a time individualism, but that's a fallacy. The hippies and counter-culturists were looking for validation from each other as well. And a decent amount of fashion stating was going on, don't be fooled. The masses will always go with the flow and generally be averse to (or at least disinterested in) the avant-garde. Otherwise, it wouldn't be avant.

Now, maybe I'm misinterpreting, and you mean young people of any age, not just today. And I can agree with that. But I still maintain that a majority of people, regardless of age, look for validation in how they express themselves and what they consume. Younger people tend to not have come into their "own" yet, I suppose (whatever "your own" means; I am very skeptical about the idea of free will, not because I think it has anything to do with a higher power or fate, but because I don't believe we can fully separate ourselves from the customs of our societies).
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I think the real trick is somehow making prog appear to be hip and relevant. I say appear to be as most modern pop/rock is nothing more than that but has a cool factor that is attractive to young people..

There are some bands that younger people are into but most seem to be on the metal side. Anything that's retro sounding or sounds like something their parents would listen to they would stay away from. Their loss.Unfortunately people in general can't really think for themselves but I think this is especially true  of younger people. They need some sort of validation(or green light)from others before they can listen to it. Music shouldn't be seen as some sort of fashion statement but for many people it is.

I agree that it's often used as a fashion statement, but I don't think it's a generational thing. This has always been the case. We like to think the late 60s and early 70s were a time individualism, but that's a fallacy. The hippies and counter-culturists were looking for validation from each other as well. And a decent amount of fashion stating was going on, don't be fooled. The masses will always go with the flow and generally be averse to (or at least disinterested in) the avant-garde. Otherwise, it wouldn't be avant.

Now, maybe I'm misinterpreting, and you mean young people of any age, not just today. And I can agree with that. But I still maintain that a majority of people, regardless of age, look for validation in how they express themselves and what they consume. Younger people tend to not have come into their "own" yet, I suppose (whatever "your own" means; I am very skeptical about the idea of free will, not because I think it has anything to do with a higher power or fate, but because I don't believe we can fully separate ourselves from the customs of our societies).

I said people in general so I agree that it's not just younger people. I think younger people get indoctrinated and those values stick with them. However, as people get older they tend to be more independent in their thinking and aren't as likely to go along with people to try to fit in. Yes, I meant younger people in any generation not just today. 
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At the risk of sounding condescending, I feel that musicians have to express themselves on a younger persons level. This is a group that is serching for an identity, while musicians just slightly older have found theirs or are on the way to it. Hippies were tuning in and dropping out of colleges, not high schools. And that audience is who needs to be reached.

Edited by SteveG - October 22 2020 at 15:24
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I think the real trick is somehow making prog appear to be hip and relevant. I say appear to be as most modern pop/rock is nothing more than that but has a cool factor that is attractive to young people..


Thank you, that is quite insightful! 

What do the youth of today care about?  In the 1970s, we were focused upon the stupid Viet Nam war, and prog artists like Crimson and Yes responded to anti-war sentiments.  Environmental sensitivities were also being stirred, and Yes in particular played to those interests.

I know (as a sometimes public school teacher) that the kids are very concerned about wildlife, environmental, global warming, water etc.  They are waking up to the fact that they are going to inherit a sh*te-hole of a planet from us geezers, and they aren't thrilled about it.  They are also motivated by very strong feelings of humanity and inclusion of all races, orientations etc. 

Therefore, prog cannot just be about "elves and unicorns" LOL !  Prog musicians and composers need to focus upon the interests of our audiences, rather than what WE wish to write about.   A prog band that writes an epic environmental work would draw attention.  

Personal disclosure - I'm a leading environmental scientist with awards from the UK and US governments (thank you your majesty), and I was inspired to this path by a single lyric in TFTO, RSOG - "Let them rape the forests."  I vowed that I would never allow that.  

I told this to Jon Anderson backstage in 2004, he gave me a wonderful smile that I shall always cherish. 
That was very moving Charles and the only time I've felt humbled by reading a post on this site. Thank you for your generous concern that benefits all of us.
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cstack3 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I think the real trick is somehow making prog appear to be hip and relevant. I say appear to be as most modern pop/rock is nothing more than that but has a cool factor that is attractive to young people..


Thank you, that is quite insightful! 

What do the youth of today care about?  In the 1970s, we were focused upon the stupid Viet Nam war, and prog artists like Crimson and Yes responded to anti-war sentiments.  Environmental sensitivities were also being stirred, and Yes in particular played to those interests.

I know (as a sometimes public school teacher) that the kids are very concerned about wildlife, environmental, global warming, water etc.  They are waking up to the fact that they are going to inherit a sh*te-hole of a planet from us geezers, and they aren't thrilled about it.  They are also motivated by very strong feelings of humanity and inclusion of all races, orientations etc. 

Therefore, prog cannot just be about "elves and unicorns" LOL !  Prog musicians and composers need to focus upon the interests of our audiences, rather than what WE wish to write about.   A prog band that writes an epic environmental work would draw attention.  

Personal disclosure - I'm a leading environmental scientist with awards from the UK and US governments (thank you your majesty), and I was inspired to this path by a single lyric in TFTO, RSOG - "Let them rape the forests."  I vowed that I would never allow that.  

I told this to Jon Anderson backstage in 2004, he gave me a wonderful smile that I shall always cherish. 
That was very moving Charles and the only time I've felt humbled by reading a post on this site. Thank you for your generous concern that benefits all of us.

Steve, your comment also moved me very much, thank you! 

In college, I was on a path to go to medical school eventually, but I was also attracted to environmental science thanks to a youth spent in the Boy Scouts and a handful of environmental science courses.  

We were looking forward to the TFTO tour visiting our university (Univ of Illinois Urbana Champaign), but the oil embargo of that era nixed their visit!  Yes didn't think they'd be able to find the fuel for their massive truck campaign to make the trip southwards from Chicago.  I was, well, devastated. 

I now specialize in bioenergy, producing methane and other fuels from, well, wastes such as manure slurry, cheese whey etc.  I have entire factories in the USA that run their boilers on the gas fermented from their waste products.  I was one of the early chaps to do this, but now it is big business and very popular in the UK and Europe, and increasingly so in the US.  

Jon and the music of Yes helped guide me on this path, and for this I am extremely grateful.  This is the website to my US consultancy: 


We could power the world with wind, sunlight and bioenergy, and we shall.  



Edited by cstack3 - October 22 2020 at 16:27
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Snicolette View Drop Down
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Love what you are doing, hopefully we will soon be putting more of our resources into utilizing the work that consultancies like this are doing!  

Edited by Snicolette - October 22 2020 at 16:38
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]
Therefore, prog cannot just be about "elves and unicorns" LOL !  Prog musicians and composers need to focus upon the interests of our audiences, rather than what WE wish to write about.   A prog band that writes an epic environmental work would draw attention.  
 

Elves and unicorns are still quite big among many young people as far as I know. The problem isn't that some prog (not that much actually) is about fantasy, as fantasy is still going strong. And as you mention, it can be well connected to environmental messages.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I think the real trick is somehow making prog appear to be hip and relevant. I say appear to be as most modern pop/rock is nothing more than that but has a cool factor that is attractive to young people..

There are some bands that younger people are into but most seem to be on the metal side. Anything that's retro sounding or sounds like something their parents would listen to they would stay away from. Their loss.Unfortunately people in general can't really think for themselves but I think this is especially true  of younger people. They need some sort of validation(or green light)from others before they can listen to it. Music shouldn't be seen as some sort of fashion statement but for many people it is.

I agree that it's often used as a fashion statement, but I don't think it's a generational thing. This has always been the case. We like to think the late 60s and early 70s were a time individualism, but that's a fallacy. The hippies and counter-culturists were looking for validation from each other as well. And a decent amount of fashion stating was going on, don't be fooled. The masses will always go with the flow and generally be averse to (or at least disinterested in) the avant-garde. Otherwise, it wouldn't be avant.

Now, maybe I'm misinterpreting, and you mean young people of any age, not just today. And I can agree with that. But I still maintain that a majority of people, regardless of age, look for validation in how they express themselves and what they consume. Younger people tend to not have come into their "own" yet, I suppose (whatever "your own" means; I am very skeptical about the idea of free will, not because I think it has anything to do with a higher power or fate, but because I don't believe we can fully separate ourselves from the customs of our societies).

I said people in general so I agree that it's not just younger people. I think younger people get indoctrinated and those values stick with them. However, as people get older they tend to be more independent in their thinking and aren't as likely to go along with people to try to fit in. Yes, I meant younger people in any generation not just today. 

Then I think we are mostly in agreement.
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I think the real trick is somehow making prog appear to be hip and relevant. I say appear to be as most modern pop/rock is nothing more than that but has a cool factor that is attractive to young people..


Thank you, that is quite insightful! 

What do the youth of today care about?  In the 1970s, we were focused upon the stupid Viet Nam war, and prog artists like Crimson and Yes responded to anti-war sentiments.  Environmental sensitivities were also being stirred, and Yes in particular played to those interests.

I know (as a sometimes public school teacher) that the kids are very concerned about wildlife, environmental, global warming, water etc.  They are waking up to the fact that they are going to inherit a sh*te-hole of a planet from us geezers, and they aren't thrilled about it.  They are also motivated by very strong feelings of humanity and inclusion of all races, orientations etc. 

Therefore, prog cannot just be about "elves and unicorns" LOL !  Prog musicians and composers need to focus upon the interests of our audiences, rather than what WE wish to write about.   A prog band that writes an epic environmental work would draw attention.  

Personal disclosure - I'm a leading environmental scientist with awards from the UK and US governments (thank you your majesty), and I was inspired to this path by a single lyric in TFTO, RSOG - "Let them rape the forests."  I vowed that I would never allow that.  

I told this to Jon Anderson backstage in 2004, he gave me a wonderful smile that I shall always cherish. 
That was very moving Charles and the only time I've felt humbled by reading a post on this site. Thank you for your generous concern that benefits all of us.

Steve, your comment also moved me very much, thank you! 

In college, I was on a path to go to medical school eventually, but I was also attracted to environmental science thanks to a youth spent in the Boy Scouts and a handful of environmental science courses.  

We were looking forward to the TFTO tour visiting our university (Univ of Illinois Urbana Champaign), but the oil embargo of that era nixed their visit!  Yes didn't think they'd be able to find the fuel for their massive truck campaign to make the trip southwards from Chicago.  I was, well, devastated. 

I now specialize in bioenergy, producing methane and other fuels from, well, wastes such as manure slurry, cheese whey etc.  I have entire factories in the USA that run their boilers on the gas fermented from their waste products.  I was one of the early chaps to do this, but now it is big business and very popular in the UK and Europe, and increasingly so in the US.  

Jon and the music of Yes helped guide me on this path, and for this I am extremely grateful.  This is the website to my US consultancy: 


We could power the world with wind, sunlight and bioenergy, and we shall.  


Much respect to your work and your gumption! I hope we can get there.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]
Therefore, prog cannot just be about "elves and unicorns" LOL !  Prog musicians and composers need to focus upon the interests of our audiences, rather than what WE wish to write about.   A prog band that writes an epic environmental work would draw attention.  
 

Elves and unicorns are still quite big among many young people as far as I know. The problem isn't that some prog (not that much actually) is about fantasy, as fantasy is still going strong. And as you mention, it can be well connected to environmental messages.

LOL The "elves & unicorns" was a deliberate prank, as we've discussed this in the past....."commoners" (i.e. those not as into prog as we are) have commonly referred to our music in those terms.  Elves, unicorns, wizards, hobbits, fairies etc.  

Mind you, I always enjoy a good song about those topics!  
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Prog is for nerds
Exactly what I'm not. LOL
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Why change now?
Actually, what happened was a load of cool kids including Miles Davis, the Velvet Underground and even the Beatles, began experimenting with music, and then a gang of upper-class boffins from fancy schools like CHARTERHOUSE (ahem, Genesis) stole it. So really, it should be "Why go back now?". And I say, why not? Who cares who like what? Rock itself is dying out, should we really be worried about who listens to it?
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Oh, and alluding to the previous discussion - who says young people don't like elves and unicorns?
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How can anyone be a prog fan and not a nerd? 
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^ I know I am one. TongueI just started an Economics PHD program. There have been a couple of younger people that used to linger here finish their PHDs.

I don't have much time to go on PA these days, but I read the entirety of this thread. Thumbs Up


Edited by King of Loss - October 24 2020 at 22:11
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Originally posted by King of Loss King of Loss wrote:

^ I know I am one. TongueI just started an Economics PHD program. There have been a couple of younger people that used to linger here finish their PHDs.

I don't have much time to go on PA these days, but I read the entirety of this thread. Thumbs Up

Starting an economics PHD program doesn't make you a nerd. Starting it and then playing Dungeons and Dragons in your spare time does though. Wink
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Eh, if we're splitting hairs here, I think that would make you a "geek."
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"Geek" and "nerd" (in my experience) are offensive terms for people who are so into studying they have no life. Call me a boffin if you like, not a nerd.
I don't think it's offensive any more, so I'm probably making too much of a fuss.
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I tend to use "nerd" ironically anyway. But I also use it for specific fandoms. I, for instance, am a prog nerd, a Star Wars nerd, a Nintendo nerd, etc.
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