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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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I believe that one person here would be happy with the war if Ukraine was a communist state and they were protecting their right to be socialist. Should we be prohibited from stating these feelings based on that person's implied socialist agendas?
Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 11:49 |
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Archisorcerus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2733 |
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Not only here and in the previous Ukraine thread, but Lorenzo was also provoked in unrelated threads related to his stance related to the topic in question. I'll refrain from mentioning the name of the "provoker". But fact is fact. Edited by Archisorcerus - March 17 2022 at 11:53 |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15408 |
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For sure Lorenzo's opinions can be rebutted, and I have contributed to that, as you did. That's not the problem. There may not be direct personal insults but I see a lot of postings that just say in various ways "shut the f... up" without arguments.
Edited by Lewian - March 17 2022 at 11:54 |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15408 |
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You do realise that this is a personal attack rather than engaging with his arguments and opinion, don't you? (Of course nobody forces you to engage with his arguments and opinion but why then are you here?)
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Mirakaze ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Eclectic, JRF/Canterbury, Avant/Zeuhl Joined: December 17 2019 Location: (redacted) Status: Offline Points: 4276 |
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Putin at last gives up any pretense of not being a fascist dictator in his latest speech, calling for a "natural and necessary self-cleansing of society" to strengthen the country, calling opponents of the invasion a fifth column and instructing the Russian people to "distinguish true patriots from b*****ds and traitors and spit them out like flies", and implicitly warning the oligarchs to keep towing his line, saying he does not judge those "who cannot live without foie gras and mussels or so-called gender-based rights" as long as they are "mentally" with Russia and its people.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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But to make life easier, I will refrain from all future political posts as I have no patience for it and little tolerance for an opinion or set of opinions that are beaten to death.
Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 12:09 |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Why do you say I distorted what you think? Explain it to me. I have read two of your messages, the first in response to mine, the second I do not remember in response from whom, I quoted them and it seems to me that you said you are in favor of the third world war. If I misunderstood you, tell me why, so we understand each other better. I know many Ukrainians, Milan is full of Ukrainians, there is a large community. I gave you the example of a friend of mine's wife to explain to you that it is not true that all Ukrainians think that Crimea is an integral part of Ukraine. Many of Ukrainians I know, they expected Russia would try to take back Crimea years ago and were not astonished at that invasion, knowing Crimea was half Russian (if not more) and half Ukrainian. That's all. Most of them hate Putin and agree with Zelensky, but some have not loved Zelensky since he was elected. For the rest, I deduce that you have not read all the messages, otherwise you would have seen that, after criticizing Zelenskij (page 7), Steve said I'm undemocratic: Whatever reason you have to malign Zelenskyy can only be born from your anti democracy, pro socialist stance. To freedom loving people, he is a hero in an era when so few exist Last post on page 7. Then, on page 8: Easy Money accused me of Blame the victim in this way: I hope we do not get anymore of this 'blame the victim' nonsense from the previous page. Reminds me of when people say a rape victim was just 'asking for it'. I find such thinking to be extremely disturbing. The Dark Elf wrote: I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. I know be it. And Tszirmay accused me of propaganda (besides having fun of me because I always say "I"... who knows, maybe it's true due to my poor English... consider that in Italian the subject "I" is almost always implied , so it is rarely used) There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. ------ In the end: I am not interested in being a victim, I am interested in being able to keep this thread open and discuss with respect, but if it is impossible to peacefully discuss the war in progress, ok, I'll make up my mind. Still I hope it can be done. Finally, Nick, I have never accused anyone of making propaganda. I do not publish anything that comes from Russia, both because it is very difficult to find it in Europe (the two main Russian sites have been closed) and because I prefer to read the arguments of Western intellectuals that I believe independent and free, and I do it with both right-wings and left-wings. Speaking of those on the left, I would like to point out that I do not know any Marxist intellectuals who are in favor of Putin, the Marxists despise Putin to the highest degree. My favorites are nonviolent pacifists like Ilan Pappé and Noam Chomsky, the two I have posted here. I hope I explained myself with the correct words. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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More news from putin's war of aggression:
"Fears are growing that Moldova could be next on the Russian President's hit list. The Russian embassy in Moldova has asked Russian nationals to get in touch with examples of "discrimination" or "acts of violence", prompting fears the evidence could be used to deploy forces to "protect" citizens "under threat"." Quoted from news.sky.com Edited by Easy Money - March 17 2022 at 13:54 |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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Just curious, how many other people in this thread have friends and relatives in or very near this war. For example:
My girlfriend (Basia), has cousins in Ukraine who are now missing and can't be located. Basia's mother lives in Poland near the border of Belarus where there is some troop activity. In a few weeks Basia is supposed to go to Poland to help her mother get through a serious operation. She will be there for a month. Basia also has many friends in Russia and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. One of my best friends is working 16 hour shifts processing refugees in Vilnius. My friend Luba has parents and many friends in Russia. Anyone else? Edited by Easy Money - March 17 2022 at 14:34 |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6742 |
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1. This IS an alanine thread, as it foolish to think it could turn into anything other than what it has. There is nothing wrong with calling the thread (not you) asinine, nor wishing for it to be closed.
2. Victims blaming is a thing, and I find it more disturbing for you to be thinking otherwise. So what if Ukraine were wearing a shirt skirt. That doesn’t make it right for Russia to rape her. Those denouncing the war are not necessarily suggesting that Russia is the only guilty party, nor that Ukraine has been entirely innocent. But Putin chose to go to war. No matter how much we can argue on the muddy shades of grey up to that point, that is black and white. No matter what mitigating circumstances are given, Putin is wrong to have gone to war, and is the sole guilty party. We can argue the guilt of many other countries, including Ukraine, up to the point where Putin went to war - but that is irrelevant and disingenuous. He did not ever need to aggressively invade Ukraine. I personally think NATO should have been dissolved at the same time as the USSR. I think it causes more problems than it solves, and amounts little more than to being a schoolyard gang. The idea that if someone is not part of the gang, you don’t need to go to their aid if they are hurt is abhorrent to me. But let’s not fool ourselves. Despite Russia’s entreaties, it has never been surrounded by NATO, and nor has NATO aggressively attempted to do so. Perhaps if it had actually done so, we would not be in the situation we are in. Because of it were so intent on surrounding Russia, it would have brought Ukraine into its fold. The whole NATO thing is simply a pretext. We’ll never know, of course, but had NATO been disbanded at the time of the dissolution of the USSR, I suspect Russia would still have invaded Ukraine, using another pretext. 3. I never denied that Crimea is believed to be Russian by some. All I did was argue your ridiculous statement (and that is not meant as an attack or insult) that “to all intents and purposes” Crimea is Russian. No it’s not, and no matter how many Ukrainians you know that doesn’t make it so. And there are at least as many Ukrainians, and Russians, and Tartars that believe it is Ukraine. The posts you pointed out were not ones I missed, and I don’t think the criticism is unfounded or unfair. It might be wrong, but it is based on the impression you give. Again, perhaps you need to choose your words better, and I’m genuinely sorry if this is the case, because I realise you are arguing in a second language, which automatically puts you at, if not a disadvantage (I don’t think that’s the case, because you’re too learned, even if not as fluent as you’d perhaps like), then in a position to be more easily misconstrued or misunderstood. Perhaps a lot of the differences between your position and others are not as great as they seem, and are simply lost somewhere between the lines. |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 16:12 |
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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@Nick 1. This IS an alanine thread, as it foolish to think it could turn into anything other than what it has. There is nothing wrong with calling the thread (not you) asinine, nor wishing for it to be closed. --- I disagree. I would never call a thread "asinine" and would never ask to close it. In fact, after 5 years of visiting this site, it is the first time that I realize that some threads undergo a closure and some messages are deleted. 2. Victims blaming is a thing, and I find it more disturbing for you to be thinking otherwise. --- I dont think otherwise. Victim blaming is a very bad attitude. And I haven't done any "victim blading". I have never written that it depends on a Zelensky's fault that Putin invaded Ukraine. You will not find anything like this in what I have written. I criticized Zelenskij for how he is reacting to the invasion, i.e. for spreading fake news to terrorize Europe, offending and threatening Europeans for not wanting to go to war against Russia. Moreover, some month ago, I read this: 3. I never denied that Crimea is believed to be Russian by some. All I did was argue your ridiculous statement (and that is not meant as an attack or insult) that “to all intents and purposes” Crimea is Russian. ---I mean this: Crimea is not recognized as part of Russia, but it is ruled by Russia. It is already part of the Russian political and military administration. It's a fact. Right or wrong, but a fact. To take it away from Russia, it needs a war. @Steve Whatever an undemocratic pro socialist stance means, it's a long way from anything I've written. (The only undemocratic socialist position that in some respects has brought well-being to its people is that of Cuba. But it has just one serious flaw: the non-democracy.) Zelenskij was a comedian until a few years ago: I don't see the evil in saying it. Nobody knows what will happen to him and how he will be remembered in history. Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 17 2022 at 17:22 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 17:56 |
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progaardvark ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Online Points: 53490 |
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My sister-in-law has family in Kyiv. I would have to ask my nephew of their whereabouts. Last I heard was that they were still OK. I have very distant relations that I'm personally not in contact with, but a distance cousin is, in southeastern Poland in the village of Krzywa. My great-grandmother, Maryanna Kracz (nee Świniuch) on my mother's side was born there in 1883. I also have a branch that came from neighboring Borek Wielki with the surnames Kracz and Łącała, but I'm not aware of any living relatives from that branch still in Poland. I'm going to guess that Krzywa is about 60-70 miles from the Ukraine border.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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Glad to see you stick around SteveG, your insights are appreciated.
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Archisorcerus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2733 |
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I met an Ukrainian guy last summer in Davutlar. That's where our summer house is. He was planning to buy a house there. Some foreigners buy houses and stay there all the time, whilst most of them only spend their time in Davutlar during the summers. I hope that guy was in the first group and is staying safe in Turkey. He was a nice person.
Woon is not active lately. I hope he is OK too. Great guy. |
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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My reference to PROPAGANDA had nothing to do with content but method: Its not what you say that is propaganda but the way you constantly repeat it , endlessly, which is precisely what I criticized , hence using the term "ad Nauseam"
...as Dr Josef Goebbels (an expert, sadly) stated: “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”
― Joseph Goebbels “Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.” ― Joseph Goebbels NOW PLEASE, this does not mean that I am accusing Lorenzo of being a NAZI , that would be quite ridiculous and patently false. So don't go there, please. But both quotes are clear as crystal and also factual (he did say these, except it was in German) . Anyway, I had enough of this waste of effort , with an audience of 10 people who have surely better things to do. I just sent money to family in Hungary with the express condition that it goes to refugees fleeing the horror of this indiscriminate war. I was a victim of this in 1956 , at the age of 7 months and its imprint has stayed with me all my life, becoming a military historian , so as to better understand the world we live in and the inhumanity and WASTE of war. I prefer PEACE. Edited by tszirmay - March 17 2022 at 18:46 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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I agree with the opinion of Mao Valpiana: Dear Gad Lerner, Luigi Manconi, Adriano Sofri, Emma Bonino* [*Italian left-wings politicians or journalists], I immediately get to the point that divides us today: "weapons yes / no weapons" from the EU to Ukraine. I am writing to you because, unlike most of the Italian commentators who mock pacifism by making a caricature of it, I know that you consider it, for common friendship and sensitivity, and because you have motivated your choice also in reference to Gandhi who, in front of a abuse, between sloth and violence says that the latter is preferable. But the Mahatma chooses the third way, that of the nonviolence of the strong. At stake are principles and practice, ends and means, philosophy and politics. This type of nonviolent pacifism has two requirements: ethics and effectiveness. Let's start with effectiveness. We do not know which "lethal" weapons are sent, because they are covered by military secrecy. However, we know how much they cost (up to now one billion euros), already paid to the war industry with funds advanced by the "ecological transition" (the Italian fund of 100 million taken from "cooperation"), therefore it is a conversion from civilian to military . Will these weapons reach the Ukrainian regular army, or will they be intercepted by the growing paramilitary "territorial defense" militias, even with mercenaries arriving from abroad? Were the lessons from Libya and Afghanistan not enough for us, where Western weapons ended up in the hands of rival gangs or the Taliban, with the consequences we know? And are we sure that these weapons will be able to make a difference in terms of military capacity, firepower, or will it not be necessary to continually raise the bar, in the military logic that wins those who have the most lethal weapons, up to the extreme consequences? (starting from the recruitment of child soldiers, up to the threat from the West of tactical nuclear weapons?). Indeed, this is the point that makes today's war different from all others: the nuclear threat. This is the situation that, in the aftermath of the Cuban missile crisis, Pope John XXIII configured in Pacem in Terris: "In a time like ours, which prides itself on atomic power, it is alien to any reason that war can be used as a tool to restore violated rights ". Many military observers also argue that the dispatch of new weapons increases the danger of uncontrolled escalation and further postpones the possibility of a successful deal. And we come to ethics. The Constituents [the fathers of the Italian Constitution] intended to ban (repudiate) armed intervention (war) as a means of resolving international disputes even when the controversy has taken on the character of an armed conflict. Our Constitution does not deny the "natural right of individual or collective self-protection in the event of an armed attack against a member of the United Nations" enshrined in the United Nations Charter, but reiterates what the UN Charter itself requires: "The Members they must resolve their international disputes by peaceful means, so that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered ”. It is in this context that the problem of sending weapons to a nation undergoing armed aggression must be considered. Condemning the aggression and supporting the just reasons of that nation does not automatically mean that one must intervene militarily in that context. If so, weapons should be provided to all peoples fighting for their sovereignty, such as the Palestinians whose territories have been illegally occupied by Israel for decades. It is not done because sending weapons always configures a situation of belligerence. Zelenskii has decided to take the path of armed defense: "better to die on your feet than to live on your knees". We say that the third way must be sought: "living standing". All this certainly requires helping those who are resisting, but with what defense? Other voices that come to us from Kiev must also be listened to. Like that of Yurii Sheliazhenko, national referent of the Ukrainian peace movement who told us about the dispatch of weapons: "Madness! It is fueling escalation and bloodshed. The international media are manipulated by the war machine. There is a need for international pressure for a ceasefire and to arrive at a real negotiation ". It is also urgent to support, finance, strengthen the growing movement of Russian conscientious objectors, and the mothers of soldiers who oppose the call of conscripts, to weaken Putin on the domestic front. All the nonviolent instruments must be put in place to reach as soon as possible the "Ceasefire" - which is bilateral and is not the surrender of one party - and promote real negotiations (for which the Vatican is also working). Trade sanctions against Russia are important, but not sufficient measures. We need a qualitative leap in the rationale of nonviolent struggle which is "to take the first step first". In concrete terms, this means promoting military de-escalation, starting now to do what had to be done before: withdrawing the nuclear bombs present in the European territory by dismantling the "nuclear sharing"; recall the NATO military contingents recently sent to Eastern Europe, and hold an international conference under the aegis of the United Nations putting the compromise of neutral Ukraine on the table. Since the fall of the Berlin Wall we have supported the transformation of NATO from a military alliance to an alliance for security and cooperation. Since 1995 we have advanced proposals and operational projects for the constitution of the international police (European civil peace corps), with professional training for peace operators and mediators, who could have intervened preventively in the Donbass crisis, and which today could be a real force of de-escalation and field intervention. Instead of further increasing the military budgets of individual states, as decided at Versailles, those funds should be used to lay the foundations today for the European defense of tomorrow, creating the international police that is still missing. Is unilateral disarmament a pious illusion? I have no certainties, nonviolence has many ifs and many buts. However, I know that two historical anti-fascists, who participated in the Resistance, such as Aldo Capitini and Carlo Cassola, came to this political choice and made it the mission of their lives and I think of the nonviolent pacifism of our mutual friend Alex Langer ("A movement for the peace that was made mainly of condemnation of certain military aggressions, but from which no concrete effect derives, would not have great credibility. I am convinced that today the research and development sector of nonviolence must take great steps forward "). And I also know that when Mikhail Gorbachev took the first step of unilateral disarmament it came, for the first time in history, to the 1987 Treaty which dismantled 2,700 Russian and American nuclear missiles, putting an end to the Cold War. Perhaps this is the right way. Between enlisting for war or preaching surrender, there is the third way of active nonviolence. Mao Valpiana, president of the Nonviolent Movement
Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 17 2022 at 18:48 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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