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Sasquamo 
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 Posted: March 14 2009 at 11:19 |
 BaldFriede wrote:
Roman Catholicism is not based on fear; that's an obvious misconception. God is forgiving, that's the basic teaching of Roman Catholicism.
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Have you ever been Roman Catholic? Maybe it's not based on fear, but it definitely made me scared. For further support, check out page ten of this thread, where you said that those who believe in God do not worry and immediately three different people said they worried more when they were religious.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 12:32 |
stonebeard wrote:
Normality =/= right. If it's wrong it should be corrected.
Yes, but it's wrong for both sides, for the country that almost requires to be Catholic in order to be President or the country that harrasses or exiles the person who dares to express his/her religious beliefs.
The point is that neither rekligion of Atheism are to be blamed for his, it's human ciondition to be discriminatory, the excuse will come later.
Not at all. Attacking the beliefs of a Nazi is perfectly right and good, because they're horrible beliefs. The point is that some beliefs should be attacked, with varying degrees of intensity.
So religion must be attacked with a different degree of intensity? That's your idea of freedom of belief?
That probably depends on the company policy, but I think you're pondering unreality. No company in the civilized world would have a Nazi ad, for the PR backlash. But in case one did, then the driver probably should strike. Better yet, quit the job. No one is entitled to a job at a company no matter what they do, though, so I wouldn't whine if your Nazi company fires you.
Of course yes, if a candidate with nazi tendencies presents himself to an office, (it has happened) he will pay advices in the buses.....And many would ne allowed to protest for this in the only way they can.
If there's a universal right to strike, there's a universal right to conduct business. The company will hire other workers in the interim to take the place of the striker(s).
In other words your idea about a centurty of workers rights and unions is "Do your work or we will fire you, no matter what we do"?
Sorry Stonie, the civil rights of the workers are different, or at least should be, but seems you klive two centuries ago.
Bunch a luck to the one sap who tries to make a difference. An army of strikers is a different thing.
So....You are ionly right if you are part of a mass of peiople= Is that what you are saying? But probably if that worker is fired, the sybndicate will start a strike, this people are united thanks to God.
The point here, though, is that public transportation workers have much more limited striking rights, I believe. They can't go around protesting everything or else the city shuts down.
So, the rights of the people are good unless you have to walk to work?
Why limited, because they are poor and make a humble service as driving a bus? Why can even the doctors who have LIFES in their hands go to strike and bus drivers can't?
Please Stonie, that's arrogant. 
Remember Hospitals with patients shut and that's more dangerous than forcing you to take a cab to work,
Then stop confusing them 
I don't confuse them.
Iván,
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 14 2009 at 12:34
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 12:37 |
Sasquamo wrote:
Have you ever been Roman Catholic? Maybe it's not based on fear, but it definitely made me scared. For further support, check out page ten of this thread, where you said that those who believe in God do not worry and immediately three different people said they worried more when they were religious.
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I have been Roman Catholic for 44 tyears and never felt fear, I know God forgives any sin.
If somebody feels fear, well probablt doesn't know too much aboput Catholicism.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 12:45 |
Leningrad wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
If it is a private company (and I believe it must be because there would be a sh*tstorm if the government was using taxes to pay for any sort of faith message) then it owes no one any favor for the kind of message it carries, so long as it's not inciteful of violence or makes unprovable claims.
So if a Nazi or anti Latino or anti Black message is ccarried, the bus driver isn't allowed to protest not driving?
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There's a difference between religious message and hate crime.
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No there isn't in this case Leningrad, we are not judging the ideology of the ad, we are talking ONLY about the right of a bus driver to stop driving a bust that carries a message that goes agains his conscience and belifs, it doesn't matter if the advice is pro Catholic, Mormon, Atheist, Nazi or whatever, if the message goes against the beliefs of the driver, he has the right to protest.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 14 2009 at 12:46
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CPicard
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 13:14 |
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What did I just see? The use of the word "Nazi"??? Hey, guys, you're already to the Godwin Point???
Well, now I understand why I went away for a few days.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 14:05 |
In this case is not aplied, because we are not talking abiout Nazi doctrine or acts, as a fact the conntent of the ad is irrelevant, the point is that some bus drivers found it offensive and refused to drive.
If you went away fopr afew days, it's your choice.
Iván
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Sasquamo
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 14:55 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
Have you ever been Roman Catholic? Maybe it's not based on fear, but it definitely made me scared. For further support, check out page ten of this thread, where you said that those who believe in God do not worry and immediately three different people said they worried more when they were religious.
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I have been Roman Catholic for 44 tyears and never felt fear, I know God forgives any sin.
If somebody feels fear, well probablt doesn't know too much aboput Catholicism.
Iván |
I knew plenty, and there was plenty to fear: Fear that everything you do that is against Church teaching is a sin. Fear that you're personal views that you can't help believing in are wrong or sinful because they conflict with the Church's stance. Fear that every single time you think an "impure thought" you are sinning. Fear from not knowing how forgiving God really is, and what it takes to go to Hell. Fear that since you know not when your hour will come you will die a sinner and go to Hell. Fear that God won't forgive you because no matter how hard you try, you can't make your apology sincere. Fear that your friends will go to Hell from being sinful. Fear that if you had prayed hard enough, something bad might not have happened. Fear that you don't have enough faith. Maybe that's just me. I probably thought about it too much, and forgot that the best results come when your brain is switched off.
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stonebeard
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 17:09 |
CPicard wrote:
What did I just see? The use of the word "Nazi"??? Hey, guys, you're already to the Godwin Point???
Well, now I understand why I went away for a few days.
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I don't acknowledge Godwin's "Law" anymore. Fact is, Nazism is not off the table for debate or analogy.
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Finnforest
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 17:15 |
Sasquamo wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
Have you ever been Roman Catholic? Maybe it's not based on fear, but it definitely made me scared. For further support, check out page ten of this thread, where you said that those who believe in God do not worry and immediately three different people said they worried more when they were religious.
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I have been Roman Catholic for 44 tyears and never felt fear, I know God forgives any sin.
If somebody feels fear, well probablt doesn't know too much aboput Catholicism.
Iván |
I knew plenty, and there was plenty to fear: Fear that everything you do that is against Church teaching is a sin. Fear that you're personal views that you can't help believing in are wrong or sinful because they conflict with the Church's stance. Fear that every single time you think an "impure thought" you are sinning. Fear from not knowing how forgiving God really is, and what it takes to go to Hell. Fear that since you know not when your hour will come you will die a sinner and go to Hell. Fear that God won't forgive you because no matter how hard you try, you can't make your apology sincere. Fear that your friends will go to Hell from being sinful. Fear that if you had prayed hard enough, something bad might not have happened. Fear that you don't have enough faith.
Maybe that's just me. I probably thought about it too much, and forgot that the best results come when your brain is switched off.
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Sas, my grandfather had this old Catholic book written in the 1800s/early 1900s.....oh my Lord.....you talk about fear? This book pretty much condemned everyone to hell save the most fervent monk-living types  I certainly hope if there is a heaven/hell that the rules of admission are more about whats in your heart than the specific rules of sin-counting. If the latter then I'm pretty much screwed.
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stonebeard
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 17:32 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Not at all. Attacking the beliefs of a Nazi is perfectly right and good, because they're horrible beliefs. The point is that some beliefs should be attacked, with varying degrees of intensity. |
So religion must be attacked with a different degree of intensity? That's your idea of freedom of belief? |
No, it's my idea of common sense. If someone proclaims himself as a Nazi, because their beliefs are so atrocious, I'm going to condemn them with more vehemence than if someone says they believe in any number of religious beliefs, unless they happen to be as bad as those of Nazism.
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The quoting here is getting f**ked up and I don't know why. The following is in response to what you said: "In
other words your idea about a centurty of workers rights and unions is
"Do your work or we will fire you, no matter what we do"?"
You bring up an interesting point in unions. I don't know much about these things and the reality of strikes and unions, so I'm arguing from a perspective of them not existing. But since they do, and I imagine public transport workers have unions, the unions decide to go on strike or not. If an idividual worker decides to strike without the consent of a union and the mass of workers striking by his side, then 1) he won't accomplish anything significant and 2) he won't be protected. He's likely to be fired, I believe.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Bunch a luck to the one sap who tries to make a difference. An army of strikers is a different thing. |
So....You are ionly right if you are part of a mass of peiople= Is that what you are saying? But probably if that worker is fired, the sybndicate will start a strike, this people are united thanks to God. |
No if the striker happens the be striking against something worthwhile (hate speech ads Nazism ads) then they will be right. Numbers don't have any influence on rightness. They do have an influence on effectiveness, which was the point of that which you quoted. One striker will be fired. A union of strikers formed by the decision of the workers union will probably be heard and respected.
stonebeard wrote:
The point here, though, is that public transportation workers have much more limited striking rights, I believe. They can't go around protesting everything or else the city shuts down. |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
So, the rights of the people are good unless you have to walk to work?
Why limited, because they are poor and make a humble service as driving a bus? |
Oh please, Iván. I have much more sympathy for hard working poor people than practically any rich person. That they're poor is entirely irrelevant.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Why can even the doctors who have LIFES in their hands go to strike and bus drivers can't?
Please Stonie, that's arrogant.
Remember Hospitals with patients shut and that's more dangerous than forcing you to take a cab to work, |
Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking (commonsensically) that certain people who through the power of their work to grind the city to a halt (and in the case of hospitals, deny people medical care or worse) have more limited striking rights than those people of businesses whose striking would only immediately effect the private sector, and not the day-to-day function of a society. I think I'm right to some degree (It would be crazy if I'm not), but I guess I do not remember all that much from my high school economics class (lol).
Edited by stonebeard - March 14 2009 at 17:40
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Zargus
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 18:24 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
Have you ever been Roman Catholic? Maybe it's not based on fear, but it definitely made me scared. For further support, check out page ten of this thread, where you said that those who believe in God do not worry and immediately three different people said they worried more when they were religious.
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I have been Roman Catholic for 44 tyears and never felt fear, I know God forgives any sin.
If somebody feels fear, well probablt doesn't know too much aboput Catholicism.
Iván |
If he does what is hell for then?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 18:32 |
stonebeard wrote:
Thanks Stonie for a nice and civil debate:
No, it's my idea of common sense. If someone proclaims himself as a Nazi, because their beliefs are so atrocious, I'm going to condemn them with more vehemence than if someone says they believe in any number of religious beliefs, unless they happen to be as bad as those of Nazism.
I don't believe there's need to condemn religious or non reliogious beliefs at all, they are part of our freedom, remember catholic Church and the religious problems in Poland had a great impact in the fall iof the USSR empire.
The quoting here is getting f**ked up and I don't know why. The following is in response to what you said: "In other words your idea about a centurty of workers rights and unions is "Do your work or we will fire you, no matter what we do"?"
You bring up an interesting point in unions. I don't know much about these things and the reality of strikes and unions, so I'm arguing from a perspective of them not existing. But since they do, and I imagine public transport workers have unions, the unions decide to go on strike or not. If an idividual worker decides to strike without the consent of a union and the mass of workers striking by his side, then 1) he won't accomplish anything significant and 2) he won't be protected. He's likely to be fired, I believe.
I assure you something and because i had a couple cases of union petitories, if one man from the syndicate is fired for an unfair cause, (like tis one because in most Constitutions Freedom of Cosncience is legitimate) The union won't allow it.
According to the OIT, one of the rights of the Union Members is being protectedd by his union.
No if the striker happens the be striking against something worthwhile (hate speech ads Nazism ads) then they will be right. Numbers don't have any influence on rightness. They do have an influence on effectiveness, which was the point of that which you quoted. One striker will be fired. A union of strikers formed by the decision of the workers union will probably be heard and respected.
You are forgeting INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE, a right protected by every Constitution.
[
Oh please, Iván. I have much more sympathy for hard working poor people than practically any rich person. That they're poor is entirely irrelevant.
Seems it's not sio important if you base your negative opinion in the problems this guys niot drivinm could cause.
Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking (commonsensically) that certain people who through the power of their work to grind the city to a halt (and in the case of hospitals, deny people medical care or worse) have more limited striking rights than those people of businesses whose striking would only immediately effect the private sector, and not the day-to-day function of a society. I think I'm right to some degree (It would be crazy if I'm not), but I guess I do not remember all that much from my high school economics class (lol).
Nobody has limited rights acording to the OIT and the Internattional Acts.
Iván
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Sasquamo
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Posted: March 14 2009 at 22:29 |
Zargus wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sasquamo wrote:
Have you ever been Roman Catholic? Maybe it's not based on fear, but it definitely made me scared. For further support, check out page ten of this thread, where you said that those who believe in God do not worry and immediately three different people said they worried more when they were religious.
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I have been Roman Catholic for 44 tyears and never felt fear, I know God forgives any sin.
If somebody feels fear, well probablt doesn't know too much aboput Catholicism.
Iván |
If he does what is hell for then?
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Hell is for those who are unrepentant or whose apologies God doesn't accept due to insincerity. And there's no way of knowing for sure if you're forgiven or not, hence the worrying. What if you're not sure if you're being sincere in asking for forgiveness? Is just being sorry enough, or do you need to pray specifically for forgiveness, or is going to Confession the only thing that will work? After a while when you hurt somebody, concern for the person you actually hurt takes a back seat to concern over getting forgiven. It's a huge load of BS and one of the many reasons why I hate religion.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 15 2009 at 00:35 |
Sasquamo wrote:
Hell is for those who are unrepentant or whose apologies God doesn't accept due to insincerity. And there's no way of knowing for sure if you're forgiven or not, hence the worrying. What if you're not sure if you're being sincere in asking for forgiveness?
Well, I believe you know if you are sincere or not, and if you know it, God also.
Is just being sorry enough, or do you need to pray specifically for forgiveness, or is going to Confession the only thing that will work?
There are many ways to obyain forgivenes, even without a priest, if you are sincere when you are dying.
After a while when you hurt somebody, concern for the person you actually hurt takes a back seat to concern over getting forgiven.
You get forgivenes for your acts also, concern for the person you hurt is a cleasr indication of repent-
It's a huge load of BS and one of the many reasons why I hate religion.
In first place, I believe it's offensive to qualify as BS the beliefs of other persions, and if you hate religion, your opinion lacks of objectivity.
Iván
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Sasquamo
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Posted: March 15 2009 at 00:56 |
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It's my opinion, I feel strongly about it, and BS is the right word to use. Also, my hate of religion doesn't change my opinions, my opinions create my hate of religion. I don't blindly label everything religious as bad.
I've been there, and looking back I finally realize how messed up I was. Thankfully, I started thinking critically and once I did that, my beliefs began to crumble immediately. I am a much better, moral person now than I was back then. I think for days about issues in order to develop an opinion, and I have a new purpose in life. When I look back and realize that if I had just stayed the course, I wouldn't be anything like I am now, it makes me angry.
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Chris S
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Posted: March 15 2009 at 01:27 |
^
Sure that is good, but your opinion neither changes or rearranges that religion. Your faith is in your self but it does not mean Catholicism or any other religion is necessarily wrong.
You are stronger now that is the positive for you....and there are millions who find solace in their religious beliefs, however wrong you, me or anyone else may think that seems.
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BaldJean
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Posted: March 15 2009 at 05:17 |
Sasquamo wrote:
It's my opinion, I feel strongly about it, and BS is the right word to use. Also, my hate of religion doesn't change my opinions, my opinions create my hate of religion. I don't blindly label everything religious as bad.
I've been there, and looking back I finally realize how messed up I was. Thankfully, I started thinking critically and once I did that, my beliefs began to crumble immediately. I am a much better, moral person now than I was back then. I think for days about issues in order to develop an opinion, and I have a new purpose in life. When I look back and realize that if I had just stayed the course, I wouldn't be anything like I am now, it makes me angry.
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being religious does NOT mean one has to be uncritical at all; I have no idea where you get that impression from
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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stonebeard
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Posted: March 15 2009 at 05:25 |
BaldJean wrote:
being religious does NOT mean one has to be uncritical at all; I have no idea where you get that impression from
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Uh, most religious people. All the more power to ya if your not one of them.
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BaldJean
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Posted: March 15 2009 at 05:35 |
stonebeard wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
being religious does NOT mean one has to be uncritical at all; I have no idea where you get that impression from
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Uh, most religious people. All the more power to ya if your not one of them.
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I have no idea what kind of religious people you know, stonebeard. there may be fanatics, I grant you that, but you can get fanatics everywhere. I know many people who are deeply religious and are more clear thinkers than most other people (including me). being religious does not mean you have to switch off your brain. the problem is that religious fanaticism often goes along with a low level of education. but that's no reason to conclude "being religious equals being uncritical". actually, most religious fanatics have not understood the teachings of their religion at all and act against it. an example for that are those violent protesters of abortion in the bible belt. their behavior clearly is against the teachings of the religion they proclaim to defend
Edited by BaldJean - March 15 2009 at 05:47
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BaldJean
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Posted: March 15 2009 at 06:15 |
Chris S wrote:
^
Sure that is good, but your opinion neither changes or rearranges that religion. Your faith is in your self but it does not mean Catholicism or any other religion is necessarily wrong.
You are stronger now that is the positive for you....and there are millions who find solace in their religious beliefs, however wrong you, me or anyone else may think that seems. |
Edited by BaldJean - March 15 2009 at 06:15
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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