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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 23:37
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

 
@Gerinski.  We may never be able to know what our future holds, i.e. it is unpredictable, but if it is predetermined, but unpredictable, that still eliminates free will. 
Quantum physics removed determinism from science nearly a century ago.
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 00:05
That's as maybe, but in order for our thoughts to control the outcome, our thoughts must be independent from the chemical, physical, even quantum stuff that makes them up.  If our thoughts do not control but are rather controlled by whatever, including quantum mechanics, there is still determism.  
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 12294 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 00:51
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

 
@Gerinski.  We may never be able to know what our future holds, i.e. it is unpredictable, but if it is predetermined, but unpredictable, that still eliminates free will. 
Quantum physics removed determinism from science nearly a century ago.

And death reinstated determinism.
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 01:14
I believe that we do have freewill, but that has nothing of supernatural nor does it conflict with the notion that the mind should ultimately have a scientific-like explanation.

Consciousness, self-awareness and freewill seem to be an emergent property of sufficiently complex biological systems, that's all.
It's quite easy to see that as we move from the simplest biological cell (which in principle we do not have too much difficulty in picturing as following physical laws [this does not mean behaving deterministically]) to a single-celled organism to gradually more complex multi-celled organisms, we see a gradual increase in their level of consciousness, self-awareness and freewill.

Some might say that even an electron is 'conscious' of its environment, in the limited sense that it can 'sense' information about its environment and react according to it, for example in a double-slit experiment it will behave differently if it 'senses' that it is being observed or not.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 03:13
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

You thought of it.
 
 
 
 
Q.E.D.


LOL  Not sure how to take that.  Because it came from The Doctor's mouth it must be false?  Tongue

But assuming that wasn't what you meant, how do you know "I" thought of it, as The Doctor exists in this reality?  Prove that a Chester Prime didn't think of it and transmit such information into my brain. 
You can take it either way (or so I'm told), the choice is entirely up to you..
 
The onus is on you to prove that it was transmited into your brain and that Chester Prime put it there. If I say 'I have a banana in my hand, prove that I haven't' then I've not demonstrated anything other than I've said those words, the only response that anyone can make is "You say you have".


Edited by Dean - February 23 2013 at 03:14
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 03:48
For those not scared of a bit of technical jargon, this paper by the highly respected physicist Paul Davies gives a good overview of the more or less recent status of things (as of 2004) regarding the suggestions that quantum physics may have an important role in the development and sustaining of life (its more specific suggested role in the development of consciousness is only tangentially mentioned when making reference to Roger Penrose's microtubules theory originally introduced in his book The Emperor's New Mind and further developed in The Road To Reality).

EDIT: I don't know why but pasting a hyperlink does not work even if the preview looks OK. If you want to read it google this title and you should find a link to cosmos.asu.edu/...

Does quantum mechanics play a non-trivial role in life?


Edited by Gerinski - February 23 2013 at 07:32
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 03:50
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Here's an interesting question for you Dean, or for anyone else who cares to answer, as I've spent quite a bit of time contemplating this issue myself.  If consciousness is completely confined to the brain, and does not exist independently, what are your thoughts on free will?  For, if the brain controls our thoughts, via electrochemical reactions, then is it truly possible for us to have freewill.  After all, our thoughts and therefore our actions are controlled entirely by chemistry and physics, and if a mathematical equation complex enough could be developed, all of our lives could be mapped out for us in advance with such an equation, so that we could then know everything we will ever do, ever think, ever feel, etc., etc.  I think without at least some type of mind/body schism you end up with predetermination.  I'm not saying that's an impossibility.  I don't know.  But it is something I've given some thought to.  
It is common knowledge that I firmly believe that philosophy is utter bollocks, and (more accurately) philosophers are charlatans and a waste of a perfectly good brian, sorry, I mean brain. The Determinism or Free Will Dilemma is the biggest confidence trick that these shysters have ever pulled, and one that every person of intelligence will fall for, each time and every time, it is the alchemy of "gotcha!". It is a nonsence that is of no consequence because it has no consequence - which ever "side" you pick makes no difference to any outcome, it does not affect morality or ethics, it does not absolve or apportion blame nor does it negate or afirm responsibility.
 
The resolution of any dilemma is simple enough, find an alternative (the Corbomite Maneuver) or flip a coin.
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Points: 32588 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 06:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Here's an interesting question for you Dean, or for anyone else who cares to answer, as I've spent quite a bit of time contemplating this issue myself.  If consciousness is completely confined to the brain, and does not exist independently, what are your thoughts on free will?  For, if the brain controls our thoughts, via electrochemical reactions, then is it truly possible for us to have freewill.  After all, our thoughts and therefore our actions are controlled entirely by chemistry and physics, and if a mathematical equation complex enough could be developed, all of our lives could be mapped out for us in advance with such an equation, so that we could then know everything we will ever do, ever think, ever feel, etc., etc.  I think without at least some type of mind/body schism you end up with predetermination.  I'm not saying that's an impossibility.  I don't know.  But it is something I've given some thought to.  
It is common knowledge that I firmly believe that philosophy is utter bollocks, and (more accurately) philosophers are charlatans and a waste of a perfectly good brian, sorry, I mean brain. The Determinism or Free Will Dilemma is the biggest confidence trick that these shysters have ever pulled, and one that every person of intelligence will fall for, each time and every time, it is the alchemy of "gotcha!". It is a nonsence that is of no consequence because it has no consequence - which ever "side" you pick makes no difference to any outcome, it does not affect morality or ethics, it does not absolve or apportion blame nor does it negate or afirm responsibility.
 
The resolution of any dilemma is simple enough, find an alternative (the Corbomite Maneuver) or flip a coin.


I used to tell this joke:

How does the determinist cross the road?  Very carefully.
How does the indeterminist cross the road?  Who knows?

You have free will because of determinism.

http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Evolves-Daniel-C-Dennett/dp/0142003840
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 06:27
If you say so. They both manage to cross the road and I would assume they follow the The Green Cross Code, or whatever is the equivalent form of road-safety instruction in your locale.
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 07:27
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It is common knowledge that I firmly believe that philosophy is utter bollocks
I'm quite a stereotype of the scientific method defender, but a certain amount of philosophy is inevitably required even for a scientific method approach aiming to uncover nature's secrets (philosophy of science).
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 07:41
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It is common knowledge that I firmly believe that philosophy is utter bollocks
I'm quite a stereotype of the scientific method defender, but a certain amount of philosophy is inevitably required even for a scientific method approach aiming to uncover nature's secrets (philosophy of science).
While I am tempted to say "How so?" that would be disingenuous of me to do so.
 
 
'The philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as geology is to rocks' ~ Dean, paraphrasing Richard Feynman.
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Points: 8920 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 09:16
The capabilities and basis of the will is interesting, but what intrigues me even more is the basis and role of Belief. The mind's most fundamental and important usage is TO BELIEVE. This is the kernel of the whole system.
          Even a person who is locked in a jail cell and chained to the wall, thus having a big part of his will contained and curtailed, still has a mind full of Beliefs.
            I wonder why Believing is so important and fundamental to the brain's activity? I think because believing in things is a great motivator for human beings, and gives purpose behind our potential actions.
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 09:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


'The philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as geology is to rocks' ~ Dean, paraphrasing Richard Feynman.
The actual Feynman's quote was 'the philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds', but ok, admittedly that does not make any difference, and while I regard Feynman as one of the brightest guys in the 20th century, I think that in this particular instance he was unfortunate.
If you think that Karl Popper did not have a deserved relevance in the shaping of modern physics theories that's fine, we will just disagree.
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 10:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

You thought of it.
 
 
 
 
Q.E.D.


LOL  Not sure how to take that.  Because it came from The Doctor's mouth it must be false?  Tongue

But assuming that wasn't what you meant, how do you know "I" thought of it, as The Doctor exists in this reality?  Prove that a Chester Prime didn't think of it and transmit such information into my brain. 
You can take it either way (or so I'm told), the choice is entirely up to you..
 
The onus is on you to prove that it was transmited into your brain and that Chester Prime put it there. If I say 'I have a banana in my hand, prove that I haven't' then I've not demonstrated anything other than I've said those words, the only response that anyone can make is "You say you have".


Ah, but I didn't say I have a banana in my hand, I merely said it was possible that I did.  You said it is impossible for me to have a banana in my hand, therefore the onus is on you to prove it's impossibility.  Wink  By the way, "banana in my hand"?  I don't want to know what inspired that analogy.  Tongue
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 10:15
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


'The philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as geology is to rocks' ~ Dean, paraphrasing Richard Feynman.
The actual Feynman's quote was 'the philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds', but ok, admittedly that does not make any difference, and while I regard Feynman as one of the brightest guys in the 20th century, I think that in this particular instance he was unfortunate.
If you think that Karl Popper did not have a deserved relevance in the shaping of modern physics theories that's fine, we will just disagree.

The paraphrasing was deliberate, I know what Feynman originally said. What he said isn't the same thing and that does make a difference, that's why I paraphrased it.
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Points: 221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 10:26
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

I wonder why Believing is so important and fundamental to the brain's activity?

Belief is how we represent expectations, which allows us to plan so we can try to achieve our objectives. Without beliefs (e.g. "That food is good for me," "Those people are dangerous," "Doing this will get me a reward"), we literally wouldn't have any idea as to what to do.

A double-edged sword with belief is that it incorporates linguistic and conceptual material as readily as it abstracts from lived experience. This renders us susceptible to delusion. It also makes us capable of analysis which can lead to beliefs which help us to approach our goals more successfully.
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 11:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The paraphrasing was deliberate, I know what Feynman originally said. What he said isn't the same thing and that does make a difference
Sorry I didn't get this, could you please elaborate.
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Points: 8920 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 13:43
Originally posted by Ajay Ajay wrote:


Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

I wonder why Believing is so important and fundamental to the brain's activity?
Belief is how we represent expectations, which allows us to plan so we can try to achieve our objectives. Without beliefs (e.g. "That food is good for me," "Those people are dangerous," "Doing this will get me a reward"), we literally wouldn't have any idea as to what to do. A double-edged sword with belief is that it incorporates linguistic and conceptual material as readily as it abstracts from lived experience. This renders us susceptible to delusion. It also makes us capable of analysis which can lead to beliefs which help us to approach our goals more successfully.
That is a really interesting way you have put it, thanks.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 17:42
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The paraphrasing was deliberate, I know what Feynman originally said. What he said isn't the same thing and that does make a difference
Sorry I didn't get this, could you please elaborate.
It is conceivable that a bird could make use of ornithology whereas a rock has absolutely no use for geology.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 03:31
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:


Ah, but I didn't say I have a banana in my hand, I merely said it was possible that I did.  You said it is impossible for me to have a banana in my hand, therefore the onus is on you to prove it's impossibility.  Wink
A-hem,...
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Prove that a Chester Prime didn't think of it and transmit such information into my brain. 
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The onus is on you to prove that it was transmited into your brain and that Chester Prime put it there.
 
 
/edit:
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

 
By the way, "banana in my hand"?  I don't want to know what inspired that analogy.  Tongue
Apples and oranges are not the only fruit. A few years ago an attractive young lady I used to work with pulled a raw carrot from her bag just as the office-letch (not me) walked passed her desk "What are you going to do with that?" he leered, "There's two things I can do with it, but at the moment I'm hungry", she replied as she bit the end off.Pinch


Edited by Dean - February 24 2013 at 04:51
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