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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5160 |
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Ah, thanks. Any scientific model is supported by some assumptions and axioms, which one may call 'beliefs at the time of writing'. Newton's was based on the assumption that space and time were a fixed canvas and he (unhappily aware) assumed non-locality. Later scientific models assumed that fundamental particles were 'point-like' even if that presents numerous puzzles. Later models assume that fields are real but nobody knows precisely what a field is, we have no clear idea regarding the level of continuity or quantization of spacetime (we assume that it happens at the Plank scale but we are not sure), we assume that physical laws can be represented mathematically with complete accuracy etc. It is in this sense that I say that a certain amount of philosophy is needed to make sense of a scientific model, not meaning musing about how can we believe that the sun will rise tomorrow.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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In antiquity there was no delineation between philosophy and science (there were no scientists - that word was invented in 1833 by William Whewell) - all the "great thinkers" were philosophers and all of the disciplines of science and alchemy were regarded as retained in, and defined by, philosophical thinking. As we gained more knowledge and understanding those disciplines began to sperate, (along the way we reached a level of understanding that made alchemy untenable and irrelevant), [IMO] as philosophy became less concerned in the physical world it became less relevant to the physical world. While the polymath (mathematician-scientist-philosopher) still exists (the separation is incomplete) they are no longer the prime movers of scientific discovery.
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RoyFairbank ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 07 2008 Location: Somewhere Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
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Not to derail the conversation or anything.... but I'm in a close semi/quasi-romantic relationship with a girl right now and one of the big reasons she is hesitant to take it further is because I'm an atheist and she believes in God. So my friends, it doesn't pay to be an atheist. I tried to explain to her that I am spiritual about nature and the universe, but "its not the same"
makes me wish I was more foolish and irrational. Seriously though, this kind of thing is not something you can concede as easily as shaving off my precious beard, which I did at her request.... I am who I am Edited by RoyFairbank - February 24 2013 at 07:33 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21691 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Hormones or atheism... tough call.
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5160 |
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Not a nice story, if it's any help I would remind you that being an atheist is possibly as fool as being a theist. We just don't know so regardless of what we think may be the most likely case, being agnostic is the only reasonable position.
We may tend to think whatever we do, and such thinking may assist us in taking decisions in life (believer-oriented decisions or atheist-oriented decisions) and that's fine, but down deep in the heart we do not know, so agnostic is the only honest answer.
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21691 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5160 |
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I never said that it is 'useful', it is simply the background state of affairs enabling the formulation to be made meaningfully. |
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Argonaught ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 04 2012 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1413 |
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^ Most of the people who are branded "Atheists" in reality do not believe in organized religions, as opposed to not believing in God. I don't want to sleepwalk into the agnosticism vs. deism swamp here, but just consider one thing: humankind has been recording its philosophical experiences and cosmogony snapshots for thousands of years. Today, we know so much more about the laws that guide the "harmony of the spheres" than our ancestors; yet the fundamental questions in the age of tablet computers remain as puzzling as they were in the times of clay tablets: what's beyond the yonder? what was here before the time and space began? what's the smallest indivisible particle made from? And, what or who set all these wheels in motion?
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21691 |
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Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - March 30 2013 at 12:12 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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DisgruntledPorcupine ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 16 2010 Location: Thunder Bay CAN Status: Offline Points: 4395 |
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Oh, please. Just because I don't believe there's a god out there doesn't make me a fool. |
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Non-spiritual agnostic probably best describes what I believe. My respect for religious people is proportionate to their respect for my lack of religion. I also like the term Tori Amos coined, recovering Christian, though I consider myself fully recovered.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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dr wu23 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20712 |
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Came to this thread very late but I'm one of those fence sitting agnostics....imho it's the only tenable position.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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HemispheresOfXanadu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 28 2012 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 4339 |
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I'd call myself atheist, but I'm willing to concede that there might be a god.
Never personally seen proof of their existence or nonexistence. Edited by HemispheresOfXanadu - March 31 2013 at 17:06 |
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The Doctor ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 23 2005 Location: The Tardis Status: Offline Points: 8543 |
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Happy Zombie Jesus Day to all.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Argonaught ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 04 2012 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1413 |
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As I wrote in my post, most of the people who are branded Atheists (as opposed to the self-proclaimed Atheists) do believe in a God. In the holier-than-thou cliquish parlance the word Atheist is often used as a derogative term for the individuals who don't attend their church (as in "those liberal atheists"). The true blue Atheists, who genuinely believe that there is absolutely no God (even in the form of an abstract, distant and aloof supernatural force) are rare, especially in the literal and figurative foxholes of life :) Edited by Argonaught - March 31 2013 at 19:37 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21691 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Argonaught ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 04 2012 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1413 |
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Likewise; but I hope you will also recognize (even if only for the sake of exercise in logic) that God may or may not exist regardless of whether you believe in "it" or not. There was a horseshoe, nailed to the doorway of the Niels Bohr's house. Astonished to witness such superstition in one of the Worlds' greatest minds, a visitor asked, "Does Professor Bohr really believe in such nonsense as horseshoes?" To which Bohr remarked, "You see, horseshoes are said to bring luck whether you believe in them or not'. |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21691 |
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Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - March 31 2013 at 21:28 |
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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