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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 05:31
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It is conceivable that a bird could make use of ornithology whereas a rock has absolutely no use for geology.
Ah, thanks.
Any scientific model is supported by some assumptions and axioms, which one may call 'beliefs at the time of writing'. Newton's was based on the assumption that space and time were a fixed canvas and he (unhappily aware) assumed non-locality. Later scientific models assumed that fundamental particles were 'point-like' even if that presents numerous puzzles. Later models assume that fields are real but nobody knows precisely what a field is, we have no clear idea regarding the level of continuity or quantization of spacetime (we assume that it happens at the Plank scale but we are not sure), we assume that physical laws can be represented mathematically with complete accuracy etc.

It is in this sense that I say that a certain amount of philosophy is needed to make sense of a scientific model, not meaning musing about how can we believe that the sun will rise tomorrow.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 07:02
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It is conceivable that a bird could make use of ornithology whereas a rock has absolutely no use for geology.
Ah, thanks.
Any scientific model is supported by some assumptions and axioms, which one may call 'beliefs at the time of writing'. Newton's was based on the assumption that space and time were a fixed canvas and he (unhappily aware) assumed non-locality. Later scientific models assumed that fundamental particles were 'point-like' even if that presents numerous puzzles. Later models assume that fields are real but nobody knows precisely what a field is, we have no clear idea regarding the level of continuity or quantization of spacetime (we assume that it happens at the Plank scale but we are not sure), we assume that physical laws can be represented mathematically with complete accuracy etc.

It is in this sense that I say that a certain amount of philosophy is needed to make sense of a scientific model, not meaning musing about how can we believe that the sun will rise tomorrow.
If that is the sense in which you think philosophy is needed to make sense of a scientific model that does not show that it is useful in formulating those models - that level of philosophical understanding is an after the event analysis, the model itself still has to make mathematical sense of the data and therefore be used to make mathematical predictions from it - you don't need a philiosphy to do that. I feel disincined to consider the assumptions and axioms of Newton et al to be the philosophy of science, and I full accept that you could accuse me of being selective and cherry-picking bits of "philosophy" that happen to coincide with "science" but there are good historical reasons for doing that.
 
In antiquity there was no delineation between philosophy and science (there were no scientists - that word was invented in 1833 by William Whewell) - all the "great thinkers" were philosophers and all of the disciplines of science and alchemy were regarded as retained in, and defined by, philosophical thinking. As we gained more knowledge and understanding those disciplines began to sperate, (along the way we reached a level of understanding that made alchemy untenable and irrelevant), [IMO] as philosophy became less concerned in the physical world it became less relevant to the physical world. While the polymath (mathematician-scientist-philosopher) still exists (the separation is incomplete) they are no longer the prime movers of scientific discovery.
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Points: 1072 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 07:32
Not to derail the conversation or anything.... but I'm in a close semi/quasi-romantic relationship with a girl right now and one of the big reasons she is hesitant to take it further is because I'm an atheist and she believes in God. So my friends, it doesn't pay to be an atheist. I tried to explain to her that I am spiritual about nature and the universe, but "its not the same"

makes me wish I was more foolish and irrational. Seriously though, this kind of thing is not something you can concede as easily as shaving off my precious beard, which I did at her request.... I am who I am


Edited by RoyFairbank - February 24 2013 at 07:33
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Points: 21714 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 08:45
Originally posted by RoyFairbank RoyFairbank wrote:

Not to derail the conversation or anything.... but I'm in a close semi/quasi-romantic relationship with a girl right now and one of the big reasons she is hesitant to take it further is because I'm an atheist and she believes in God. So my friends, it doesn't pay to be an atheist. I tried to explain to her that I am spiritual about nature and the universe, but "its not the same"

makes me wish I was more foolish and irrational. Seriously though, this kind of thing is not something you can concede as easily as shaving off my precious beard, which I did at her request.... I am who I am
Not worth the long term aggravation, ain't going to work if she wants you to 'become' religious. Stick to who you are.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 09:05
Hormones or atheism... tough call.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 10:05
Not a nice story, if it's any help I would remind you that being an atheist is possibly as fool as being a theist. We just don't know so regardless of what we think may be the most likely case, being agnostic is the only reasonable position.

We may tend to think whatever we do, and such thinking may assist us in taking decisions in life (believer-oriented decisions or atheist-oriented decisions) and that's fine, but down deep in the heart we do not know, so agnostic is the only honest answer.
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Points: 21714 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 10:13
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Not a nice story, if it's any help I would remind you that being an atheist is possibly as fool as being a theist. We just don't know so regardless of what we think may be the most likely case, being agnostic is the only reasonable position.

We may tend to think whatever we do, and such thinking may assist us in taking decisions in life (believer-oriented decisions or atheist-oriented decisions) and that's fine, but down deep in the heart we do not know, so agnostic is the only honest answer.

Yeah but a Christian girlfriend holding out from committing to a relationship isn't likely to factor in the difference between Atheism & Agnosticism.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 10:24
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If that is the sense in which you think philosophy is needed to make sense of a scientific model that does not show that it is useful in formulating those models - that level of philosophical understanding is an after the event analysis
I never said that it is 'useful', it is simply the background state of affairs enabling the formulation to be made meaningfully.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 05:51
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 1413 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 11:59
^ Most of the people who are branded "Atheists" in reality do not believe in organized religions, as opposed to not believing in God. I don't want to sleepwalk into the agnosticism vs. deism swamp here, but just consider one thing: humankind has been recording its philosophical experiences and cosmogony snapshots for thousands of years. Today, we know so much more about the laws that guide the "harmony of the spheres" than our ancestors; yet the fundamental questions in the age of tablet computers remain as puzzling as they were in the times of clay tablets: what's beyond the yonder? what was here before the time and space began? what's the smallest indivisible particle made from? And, what or who set all these wheels in motion?
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Points: 21714 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 12:11
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

^ Most of the people who are branded "Atheists" in reality do not believe in organized religions, as opposed to not believing in God.
A rather sweeping statement that I find wholly inaccurate. You'll typically find that people call themselves spiritual if they are against organized religion whereas people who don't believe in any god call themselves atheists. Atheist typically has a lot of baggage with it so people avoid branding themselves with it unless they really mean it. I am an atheist.


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - March 30 2013 at 12:12
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Points: 4395 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 13:14
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Not a nice story, if it's any help I would remind you that being an atheist is possibly as fool as being a theist. We just don't know so regardless of what we think may be the most likely case, being agnostic is the only reasonable position.

Oh, please. Just because I don't believe there's a god out there doesn't make me a fool. 
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 14:21
Non-spiritual agnostic probably best describes what I believe.  My respect for religious people is proportionate to their respect for my lack of religion.  I also like the term Tori Amos coined, recovering Christian, though I consider myself fully recovered.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 20712 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2013 at 14:40
Came to this thread very late but I'm one of those fence sitting agnostics....imho it's the only tenable position.
 
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Points: 4339 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 17:06
I'd call myself atheist, but I'm willing to concede that there might be a god.
Never personally seen proof of their existence or nonexistence.


Edited by HemispheresOfXanadu - March 31 2013 at 17:06
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 17:07
Happy Zombie Jesus Day to all.  Tongue
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Points: 1413 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 19:36
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

^ Most of the people who are branded "Atheists" in reality do not believe in organized religions, as opposed to not believing in God.
A rather sweeping statement that I find wholly inaccurate. You'll typically find that people call themselves spiritual if they are against organized religion whereas people who don't believe in any god call themselves atheists. Atheist typically has a lot of baggage with it so people avoid branding themselves with it unless they really mean it. I am an atheist.

As I wrote in my post, most of the people who are branded Atheists (as opposed to the self-proclaimed Atheists) do believe in a God. 

In the holier-than-thou cliquish parlance the word Atheist is often used as a derogative term for the individuals who don't attend their church (as in "those liberal atheists"). 

The true blue Atheists, who genuinely believe that there is absolutely no God (even in the form of an abstract, distant and aloof supernatural force) are rare, especially in the literal and figurative foxholes of life :)




Edited by Argonaught - March 31 2013 at 19:37
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Points: 21714 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 19:39
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:



The true blue Atheists, who genuinely believe that there is absolutely no God (even in the form of an abstract, distant and aloof supernatural force) are rare, especially in the literal and figurative foxholes of life :)


Well here's one, nice to meet you Handshake
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Argonaught View Drop Down
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Points: 1413 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 21:20
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:



The true blue Atheists, who genuinely believe that there is absolutely no God (even in the form of an abstract, distant and aloof supernatural force) are rare, especially in the literal and figurative foxholes of life :)


Well here's one, nice to meet you Handshake

Likewise; but I hope you will also recognize (even if only for the sake of exercise in logic) that God may or may not exist regardless of whether you believe in "it" or not. 

There was a horseshoe, nailed to the doorway of the Niels Bohr's house. Astonished to witness such superstition in one of the Worlds' greatest minds, a visitor asked, "Does Professor Bohr really believe in such nonsense as horseshoes?" To which Bohr remarked, "You see, horseshoes are said to bring luck whether you believe in them or not'.    
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Points: 21714 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2013 at 21:27
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:



The true blue Atheists, who genuinely believe that there is absolutely no God (even in the form of an abstract, distant and aloof supernatural force) are rare, especially in the literal and figurative foxholes of life :)


Well here's one, nice to meet you Handshake

Likewise; but I hope you will also recognize (even if only for the sake of exercise in logic) that God may or may not exist regardless of whether you believe in "it" or not. 

There was a horseshoe, nailed to the doorway of the Niels Bohr's house. Astonished to witness such superstition in one of the Worlds' greatest minds, a visitor asked, "Does Professor Bohr really believe in such nonsense as horseshoes?" To which Bohr remarked, "You see, horseshoes are said to bring luck whether you believe in them or not'.    


I accept that statistically there is a possibility that a God exists but that the percentage chance of us ever being able to prove it are so minute to make the exercise meaningless. Hell I still play the lottery & it's not because I'm a statistician. My problem is with the religious state it as fact rather than faith.


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - March 31 2013 at 21:28
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