^ the sort of music theory that a lot musicians know is when a song is in a certain key, what are the scales I can use to play a solo. Your local bar band guitarist is apt to know something like that.
Many music styles are what they are by transforming something about prior music theory. For instance, Ragtime developed syncopation. Blues and Jazz made early use of progressions composed of successive dominant chords irrespective of their consistency with the diatonic scale of the resolving chord. Jazz developed a manner of playing leads over progressions such that those leads often changed scales and keys with every chord. Bebop invented new 8-note Bebop scales. Even Rock music changed aesthetic toward parallel fifths, which were previously avoided in Classical and Jazz, with the end result in Rock being power chords. So, I got to wondering. What about Prog? I put together three particular questions for this thread:
a) Is there any contribution that Prog has made to music theory?
b) Is there any unusual aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles that has made a large contribution to Prog?
c) Is there any aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles that has made a contribution to a particular Prog genre?
The answer I lean toward for both (a) and (b) is ‘probably not’. There does not seem to be any explanation for what Prog characteristically is to be found in music theory, but I would be happy to hear suggestions. The answer to (c), I believe, shows more promise for yielding a positive answer, maybe.
I don't understand the third question; can you please elaborate? I don't see how "an aspect of music theory" can make a contribution to a musical genre
It is some fundamental change in approach to music creation. There have been a few historical examples given already. Like Easy Money said the theory part of it tends to be post hoc. It could be concurrent if a musician innovating a genre is hyper-aware of what he is doing. Rarely it comes before, but with Modal Jazz, Miles Davis was directly influenced by George Russel's Lydian Chromatic Concept. Again though, after the fact is more the norm, and all I'm really expecting in an answer. I don't care if the term syncopation pre-existed Ragtime or if it was first developed intellectually or by feel. If it doesn't have syncopation it's not a rag (sorry, Irving Berlin).
Anyway, I don't know an actual answer as to what Prog genre may have formed around an aspect of music theory. I'm guessing Math Rock might be a good candidate, but I don't really know that much about Math Rock. Symph Prog is an unlikely candidate, I am guessing, as it seems to be covered by everything music theory would already say about Classical and Rock.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
I have a masters degree in music theory and teach it to instrumental students who may be ready. As far as music theory goes, there is nothing unique in progressive rock. Anything that exists in prog rock already existed before the arrival of prog rock.
As far as music theory goes, I don't think its possible to come up with anything new anymore, just new untried combinations such as micro-tonal metal, or odd-metered cumbia, bi-tonal swing or hip-hop gamelin etc.
Oh good. You're a good source. I considered putting this in the 'I have a question' forum. I know a good amount music theory, but with gaping holes when it comes to information I haven't prioritized. I must confess I resist the it's not possible to come up with anything new assertion because it strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nevertheless, I think you may be right, however my preferred explanation is that it is probably due to Prog not really being an actual style per se.
I should also throw out (for everyone) the caution that I carefully worded the questions in the OP such that it does not presume that something needs to be completely new and unattested ("...unusual aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles..."). There are, for instance, some things that occur in Jazz that had been previously attested in Classical music, but they were ubiquitous and characteristic of Jazz while not characteristic of Classical. Even with this softened level of claim, (a) and (b) look doubtful.
I just want to mention a blues composed by Ravel.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Re Hackett Fan, Re Syncopation; Syncopation can exist in any form of music. In layman's terms, it just means accenting the beats that are in between the usually accented downbeats. But the culture with the most emphasis on syncopation is Africa, and this is mostly where the syncopation in ragtime came from. Once again, ragtime was the sound of European harmonic language meets African rhythm. The syncopation in African music can become very complicated with accents shifting from downbeat to upbeat in ways that are very hard for people to perform unless they are used to this sort of thing. Afro-Cuban jazz being a very good example. Playing this music correctly is not easy at all.
Many music styles are what they are by transforming something about prior music theory. For instance, Ragtime developed syncopation. Blues and Jazz made early use of progressions composed of successive dominant chords irrespective of their consistency with the diatonic scale of the resolving chord. Jazz developed a manner of playing leads over progressions such that those leads often changed scales and keys with every chord. Bebop invented new 8-note Bebop scales. Even Rock music changed aesthetic toward parallel fifths, which were previously avoided in Classical and Jazz, with the end result in Rock being power chords. So, I got to wondering. What about Prog? I put together three particular questions for this thread:
a) Is there any contribution that Prog has made to music theory?
b) Is there any unusual aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles that has made a large contribution to Prog?
c) Is there any aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles that has made a contribution to a particular Prog genre?
The answer I lean toward for both (a) and (b) is ‘probably not’. There does not seem to be any explanation for what Prog characteristically is to be found in music theory, but I would be happy to hear suggestions. The answer to (c), I believe, shows more promise for yielding a positive answer, maybe.
I don't understand the third question; can you please elaborate? I don't see how "an aspect of music theory" can make a contribution to a musical genre
It is some fundamental change in approach to music creation. There have been a few historical examples given already. Like Easy Money said the theory part of it tends to be post hoc. It could be concurrent if a musician innovating a genre is hyper-aware of what he is doing. Rarely it comes before, but with Modal Jazz, Miles Davis was directly influenced by George Russel's Lydian Chromatic Concept. Again though, after the fact is more the norm, and all I'm really expecting in an answer. I don't care if the term syncopation pre-existed Ragtime or if it was first developed intellectually or by feel. If it doesn't have syncopation it's not a rag (sorry, Irving Berlin).
Anyway, I don't know an actual answer as to what Prog genre may have formed around an aspect of music theory. I'm guessing Math Rock might be a good candidate, but I don't really know that much about Math Rock. Symph Prog is an unlikely candidate, I am guessing, as it seems to be covered by everything music theory would already say about Classical and Rock.
I still don't see how music theory enters here. what enters are just other musical influences; you don't need music theory for that
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Many music styles are what they are by transforming something about prior music theory. For instance, Ragtime developed syncopation. Blues and Jazz made early use of progressions composed of successive dominant chords irrespective of their consistency with the diatonic scale of the resolving chord. Jazz developed a manner of playing leads over progressions such that those leads often changed scales and keys with every chord. Bebop invented new 8-note Bebop scales. Even Rock music changed aesthetic toward parallel fifths, which were previously avoided in Classical and Jazz, with the end result in Rock being power chords. So, I got to wondering. What about Prog? I put together three particular questions for this thread:
a) Is there any contribution that Prog has made to music theory?
b) Is there any unusual aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles that has made a large contribution to Prog?
c) Is there any aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or marginal in other styles that has made a contribution to a particular Prog genre?
The answer I lean toward for both (a) and (b) is ‘probably not’. There does not seem to be any explanation for what Prog characteristically is to be found in music theory, but I would be happy to hear suggestions. The answer to (c), I believe, shows more promise for yielding a positive answer, maybe.
I don't understand the third question; can you please elaborate? I don't see how "an aspect of music theory" can make a contribution to a musical genre
It is some fundamental change in approach to music creation. There have been a few historical examples given already. Like Easy Money said the theory part of it tends to be post hoc. It could be concurrent if a musician innovating a genre is hyper-aware of what he is doing. Rarely it comes before, but with Modal Jazz, Miles Davis was directly influenced by George Russel's Lydian Chromatic Concept. Again though, after the fact is more the norm, and all I'm really expecting in an answer. I don't care if the term syncopation pre-existed Ragtime or if it was first developed intellectually or by feel. If it doesn't have syncopation it's not a rag (sorry, Irving Berlin).
Anyway, I don't know an actual answer as to what Prog genre may have formed around an aspect of music theory. I'm guessing Math Rock might be a good candidate, but I don't really know that much about Math Rock. Symph Prog is an unlikely candidate, I am guessing, as it seems to be covered by everything music theory would already say about Classical and Rock.
I still don't see how music theory enters here. what enters are just other musical influences; you don't need music theory for that
I agree. As both Easy Money and I said music theory as an academic meta-analysis generally comes in to play after the fact. Nevertheless, you speak of musical influence, but what is the mental substance of an “influence”? What is it precisely that a musician picking up on? This isn’t a ‘do you believe in music theory’ thread. For myself, I’m a linguist, and as a linguist I do believe in structure and the cognitive reality of structure.
Edited by HackettFan - May 17 2018 at 21:21
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Re Hackett Fan, Re Syncopation; Syncopation can exist in any form of music. In layman's terms, it just means accenting the beats that are in between the usually accented downbeats. But the culture with the most emphasis on syncopation is Africa, and this is mostly where the syncopation in ragtime came from. Once again, ragtime was the sound of European harmonic language meets African rhythm. The syncopation in African music can become very complicated with accents shifting from downbeat to upbeat in ways that are very hard for people to perform unless they are used to this sort of thing. Afro-Cuban jazz being a very good example. Playing this music correctly is not easy at all.
Yes, yes indeed. Syncopation is a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition. Thank you for your response to my earlier query concerning Modal Jazz and Jazz Fusion. I’m thinking about Allan Holdsworth. I’ve always thought of him as an older follow the chords kind of player, but I haven’t listened to him for awhile. BTW, there are a lot of Rock and Pop guitarists not using a modal approach, everyone who now uses the caged system.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Many music styles are what they are by transforming
something about prior music theory. For instance, Ragtime developed
syncopation. Blues and Jazz made early use of progressions composed of
successive dominant chords irrespective of their consistency with the
diatonic scale of the resolving chord. Jazz developed a manner of
playing leads over progressions such that those leads often changed
scales and keys with every chord. Bebop invented new 8-note Bebop
scales. Even Rock music changed aesthetic toward parallel fifths, which
were previously avoided in Classical and Jazz, with the end result in
Rock being power chords. So, I got to wondering. What about Prog? I put
together three particular questions for this thread:
a) Is there any contribution that Prog has made to music theory?
b)
Is there any unusual aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or
marginal in other styles that has made a large contribution to Prog?
c)
Is there any aspect of music theory absent from, contrary to or
marginal in other styles that has made a contribution to a particular
Prog genre?
The answer I lean toward for both (a) and (b) is
‘probably not’. There does not seem to be any explanation for what Prog
characteristically is to be found in music theory, but I would be happy
to hear suggestions. The answer to (c), I believe, shows more promise
for yielding a positive answer, maybe.
I
don't understand the third question; can you please elaborate? I don't
see how "an aspect of music theory" can make a contribution to a musical
genre
It is some fundamental change in approach to
music creation. There have been a few historical examples given already.
Like Easy Money said the theory part of it tends to be post hoc. It
could be concurrent if a musician innovating a genre is hyper-aware of
what he is doing. Rarely it comes before, but with Modal Jazz, Miles
Davis was directly influenced by George Russel's Lydian Chromatic
Concept. Again though, after the fact is more the norm, and all I'm
really expecting in an answer. I don't care if the term syncopation
pre-existed Ragtime or if it was first developed intellectually or by
feel. If it doesn't have syncopation it's not a rag (sorry, Irving
Berlin).
Anyway, I don't know an actual answer as to what Prog
genre may have formed around an aspect of music theory. I'm guessing
Math Rock might be a good candidate, but I don't really know that much
about Math Rock. Symph Prog is an unlikely candidate, I am guessing, as
it seems to be covered by everything music theory would already say
about Classical and Rock.
I still don't
see how music theory enters here. what enters are just other musical
influences; you don't need music theory for that
I
agree. As both Easy Money and I said music theory as an academic
meta-analysis generally comes in to play after the fact. Nevertheless,
you speak of musical influence, but what is the mental substance of an
“influence”? What is it precisely that a musician picking up on? This
isn’t a ‘do you believe in music theory’ thread. For myself, I’m a
linguist, and as a linguist I do believe in structure and the cognitive
reality of structure.
ah yes, a
linguist. as Goethe said: "denn gerade wo Begriffe fehlen, da stellt ein
Wort zur rechten Zeit sich ein" ("because just where concepts are
missing a word will appear just in time").
yes,
there is something, a "je ne sais quoi", as the French would say ("I
don't know what"; it is a phrase the French have for qualities that
cannot be exactly named or described). and I am totally happy with
leaving it at being a je ne sais quoi.
by the way: I know a lot about music theory; I learned it from my piano teacher
Edited by BaldJean - May 18 2018 at 07:01
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
^ the sort of music theory that a lot musicians know is when a song is in a certain key, what are the scales I can use to play a solo. Your local bar band guitarist is apt to know something like that.
Thanks again,,,,,,,,,,that I understand.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
ah yes, a linguist. as Goethe said: "denn gerade wo Begriffe fehlen, da stellt ein Wort zur rechten Zeit sich ein" ("because just where concepts are missing a word will appear just in time").
yes, there is something, a "je ne sais quoi", as the French would say ("I don't know what"; it is a phrase the French have for qualities that cannot be exactly named or described). and I am totally happy with leaving it at being a je ne sais quoi.
BaldJean wrote:
by the way: I know a lot about music theory; I learned it from my piano teacher
I don't doubt it.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
I can't help thinking that the correct statement and question would be how much "music theory" is in Prog and show examples.
This discussion has some interesting things, but all in all, is ... just weird for me.
Excellent point! Prog, as with nearly all music, builds upon that which preceded it. Be it instrumentation, theory, composition....prog is derivative.
Original music theory may have come into play with synthesists like Klaus Schultz and Tangerine Dream, who took the original synth noodling of psychedelic bands and created entirely new tapestries of music, fusing technology with technique. I'd love to see the sheet music for "Phaedra!"
... I'd love to see the sheet music for "Phaedra!"
If the Autobiography is true and clear, there is a sort of sheet music for many of the pieces by TD, possibly the later one, that would specify various moments in the music and its effects. However, it's hard to not think that it is all 1001 patches distributed over 3 or 4 players and it looking like there is no sheet music for it, but several members always had, in front of them, some kind of sheet music, specially Hoshiko, but she may be the one less familiar with all the music, compared to the others, but I don't think that anyone would ever know or notice that.
There is a special on Vangelis, where he has a "diagram" of what he is playing and when. So it would suggest that the "sheet music" would not necessarily be the formal style that we expect, but something different ... in Vangelis' case, I think that it specifies the next theme, or event, on top of what is already there. Something like that.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
maybe a branch from the intended discussion, ; a style that has baffled me forever - Free Jazz. What is the purpose ?? i love Soft Machine, Elton Dean, Henry Cow etc. when they break in to an Avante piece of music, it throws me 6 feet the opposite direction of my mindset. i love what these gifted musicians do, but i just don’t get the semmingly ‘randomness’ of it all. a good example is an Elton Dean Quintet album in have - Boundaries. it’s a difficult listen to me (as open as my ears/mind can be) but i persist, enjoy, and even ‘wow’ at this form of music and structure. what am i missing ??
Some people like it and some people don't, but free jazz is exactly just that, they are improvising without any set chord progression, tonal center or even steady time. Everyone is just winging it. For my own tastes, I thought it was kind of interesting when it first appeared in the 60s, but over time it has become somewhat repetitive and predictable.
Free jazz and free improvisation are completely improvised, but they're based on exploration of one's instrument and interactions between instrumentalists. Essentially, lack of a pre-defined composition allows them to do so without restraint. Although some of it is pretty intense, it doesn't have to be. Some of it can be very meditative or playful. Sometimes there's supposed to be a melodic/harmonic/rhythmic aspect, but often it's pure texture. There's an aleatoric element to it, but it isn't necessarily random. Decisions are being made. Much like an instrumentalist would consider the chord progression when choosing what to play in their solo, players are choosing what to play based on what they hear the other instruments playing, what they feel or find interesting in the moment, etc.
I sampled that Elton Dean album, and it does seem like there's a composition underneath. Some avant-garde jazzers do that - have a composition and deconstruct it as they go.
Anyway, here's proof of the emotional range free improvisation offers:
maybe a branch from the intended discussion, ; a style that has baffled me forever - Free Jazz. What is the purpose ?? i love Soft Machine, Elton Dean, Henry Cow etc. when they break in to an Avante piece of music, it throws me 6 feet the opposite direction of my mindset. i love what these gifted musicians do, but i just don’t get the semmingly ‘randomness’ of it all. a good example is an Elton Dean Quintet album in have - Boundaries. it’s a difficult listen to me (as open as my ears/mind can be) but i persist, enjoy, and even ‘wow’ at this form of music and structure. what am i missing ??
In addition to the fine answers given, I would say original composition ~ new rhythms, melodies and harmonies that are yielded by spontaneous group playing ~ very often comes from improvisation, making it a valuable resource.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
I can't help thinking that the correct statement and question would be how much "music theory" is in Prog and show examples.
This discussion has some interesting things, but all in all, is ... just weird for me.
On these matters, you have tried in the past to advance an intuitive approach to artistic improvisation. As a deeper theory of what the mind does inside its black box, I don't think invoking intuition amounts to much of anything. Music theory also has an applied side that allows it to be used as a 'music theory strategy' to predict what may work in the future based on the past and why so. The point you have made in the past is also valuable in an applied fashion. Hopefully, if I'm not misrepresenting you, your point is that thought gets in the way of improvisation. This may lead to a fruitful alternative to the music theory strategy for music creation. Which strategy a musician leans on more, I expect, is a matter of personality.
So far, since proposals for contributions from Prog to music theory seem to be lacking, it appears that everything in Prog subsumed within music theory, so the answer to the question would be all of it. The answer of how so, would require a thread whose purpose is instruction, and this could be quite valuable in the future. There is another logical possibility; that music theory has not advanced because of Prog because it has not kept up with Prog. I have no examples yet, and may never have.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
Can music theory explain what makes Jaki Liebezeit's drumming so special? Isn't there anything in Tangerine Dream's development from the beginning to, say, Phaedra and Rubycon, that could be of interest to music theory other than saying that that's derivative of so-and-so? A lot of questions like this can be asked... prog rock has brought up magical unique music. A theoretician may say, all the elements were there before, but one can still be interested in how the magic is created from them. Was there anything like Tubular Bells before Tubular Bells came out? Anything like Astronomy Domine? Anyone who sounded like Keith Emerson before he did it? Art Zoyd? Magma?
I think it's too easy to say that it's just elements that already existed combined. In some sense all music is like that. Analysis can still be interested in how exactly they come together to create a certain effect and why that works or not. Music theory may be too busy with other things than prog, and these other things may be enough deserving of this attention. But surely music theorists with open ears could find something in prog if they tried.
That's my point as well You're firing on all cylinders tonight! There's so much more to music than sheets and theories. One day there is suddenly new music that sounds like nothing before it. Whether or not the principles behind said music are old or not is beside the point and the experience of listening to something new that you can't quite put into a box.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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Posted: May 17 2018 at 10:44
You're firing on all cylinders tonight!
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BaldJean wrote:
