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Fairport Convention: Liege And Lief

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2018 at 16:11
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Superb album, a true masterpieceHeart. Is it prog? Who cares, with music that good? Anyway, the title is Liege and Lief (a word of Old English origin meaning "dear", "beloved"), not Leaf.
Right you are!  Wish I'd noticed that.  Great eyes, there.


My eyes are not that good, but I am a language teacher by profession, and a bit of a grammar/spelling Nazi LOL - which is odd, because I am not a native speaker of English. I am Micky's wife, by the way - we never got introduced properly. We met here on PA 12 years ago.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2018 at 16:45
Yes, I figured out the relationship.  Very glad to meet you!  I have fun (or gut wrenching worry sometimes!) discussing politics with Micky.  You and I certainly have a lot of this sort of music in common.  Smile  
I, too, am usually the better spell-checker than spell-check, but this one did escape me.  I have dubbed the fiend who follows me around on the phone "Oddo-Correct." 
Again, well-met!  And looking forward to reading more of your perspectives, enjoying them so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Squonk19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2018 at 16:57
An excellent album - probably my favourite amongst Fairport's canon - with Sandy's contributions crucial. The band maintained a high standard after that (Full House is but one example) and I've had many a great day and evening at Cropedy over the years (I fondly remember the foaming pints of Wadworth's 6X I would sup as I swayed along to the finales in front of the stage at the early reunions). Great music regardless of any discussion of progginess or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2018 at 17:23
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Liege And Leaf. The British folk rock pioneer, but overrated?

Liege and Lief. Not Leaf. An Anglo-Saxon adjective meaning "as happily" or "as gladly".

And no, it is not overrated. It is perhaps the best British folk-rock album ever released.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2018 at 18:26
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Liege And Leaf. The British folk rock pioneer, but overrated?

Liege and Lief. Not Leaf. An Anglo-Saxon adjective meaning "as happily" or "as gladly".

And no, it is not overrated. It is perhaps the best British folk-rock album ever released.

Gawddddddd ... you just made my favorite INCREDIBLE STRING BAND album get scratched!

EARTH SPAN is a heck of an album, though I'm not sure that many folks would consider it "folk-rock", and its stories/songs are fantastic as well ... yeah ... the actor quoting Swinburne ... that's ISB for you ... and let the prog'rs go quote Mick!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2018 at 19:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Liege And Leaf. The British folk rock pioneer, but overrated?

Liege and Lief. Not Leaf. An Anglo-Saxon adjective meaning "as happily" or "as gladly".

And no, it is not overrated. It is perhaps the best British folk-rock album ever released.

Gawddddddd ... you just made my favorite INCREDIBLE STRING BAND album get scratched!
It probably improved the sound. Or at least decreased the time betwixt the caterwauling. 

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

the actor quoting Swinburne ... that's ISB for you ... and let the prog'rs go quote Mick!

Ralph Waldo Emerson once referred to Swinburne as "A perfect leper, and a mere sodomite." Which I don't believe was being complimentary.

In any case, I prefer the seamless integration of Roud and Child Ballads with original music on L&L. And of course, Sandy Denny's vocals and Richard Thompson's guitar are quite beyond anything the Strings could muster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BarryGlibb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2018 at 21:41
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

........

And no, it is not overrated. It is perhaps the best British folk-rock album ever released.


This.

A masterpiece. Should be prog-folk not prog-related. "Prog-related" undermines their influence on other subsequent prog-folk acts.

Richard Thompson was only 20 at the time; mind-boggling guitar work both electric and acoustic. Tam Lin sends shivers down the spine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 03:42
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Superb album, a true masterpieceHeart. Is it prog? Who cares, with music that good? Anyway, the title is Liege and Lief (a word of Old English origin meaning "dear", "beloved"), not Leaf.
Right you are!  Wish I'd noticed that.  Great eyes, there.


My eyes are not that good, but I am a language teacher by profession, and a bit of a grammar/spelling Nazi LOL - which is odd, because I am not a native speaker of English. I am Micky's wife, by the way - we never got introduced properly. We met here on PA 12 years ago.

Angry Damn Spell-Check! Angry 
 
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 03:50
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Liege And Leaf. The British folk rock pioneer, but overrated?

Liege and Lief. Not Leaf. An Anglo-Saxon adjective meaning "as happily" or "as gladly".

And no, it is not overrated. It is perhaps the best British folk-rock album ever released.
Raff beat you to it Greg, so you should read the other posts first maybe? ;) And your explanation of the origin of Anglo-Saxon words bored me once again, so to make this thread interesting again I've posted, below, your excellent 5 star review of the album on PA from a few years ago:
 
5 stars "Full article first published on blogcritics.org

Ever and anon, out of trauma and tragedy arises, phoenix-like, a thing of wonder from the ashes. In May of 1969, Fairport Convention's band van swerved off the road and down a steep embankment on the M-1 outside of Birmingham, England. Most of the passengers in the van were jettisoned through windows and doors. None escaped injury, but guitarist Richard Thompson's girlfriend, Jeannie Franklyn, died at the scene, and Fairport drummer Martin Lamble died en route to the hospital. Dark days indeed, for an up-and-coming band who had just tasted their first chart successes with the recent releases What We did on Our Holidays (released January 1969) and Unhalfbricking (released July 1969).

Though grief-stricken, the young band carried on, replacing the deceased Martin Lamble with drummer Dave Mattacks, and adding fiddler David Swarbick, who had gained prominence in the English folk movement with stellar appearances on several of legendary guitarist Martin Carthy's solo recordings. Swarbick had already played with Fairport on the traditional air "A Sailor's Life", which first appeared on the seminal folk album Unhalfbricking. It was the song "A Sailor's Life", and the inestimable contributions of Swarbick that gave the band a new direction, integrating traditional English themes with a progressive electric folk sound that was first to appear on Liege & Lief (U.S. release 1970).

Yet, it was not merely a tweaking of musical elements that gave the album its undeniable dark character. There is an unremitting melancholy that pervades the recording ? the emotional aftermath of a still-too-recent tragedy, perhaps ? and sad partings, death, murder, betrayal, and insanity are frequent themes therein; however, there is a mysticism and an ancient but ageless wonder that underlies the sadness ? a timeless sound that transcends both traditional and new material to a point where it is difficult to ascertain which songs were first sang in the 16th century and which were composed in 1969. It was from this remarkable synthesis of disparate elements that the landmark Liege & Lief album was created.

That Liege & Lief was eventually haled as the quintessential British folk-rock album, and recognized twice, in 2002 and again in 2006, as the Most influential Folk Album of all time by BBC Radio 2, is understandable, given the almost netherworldly quality of the recording. But what rankles is just how woefully underrated a folk-rock band Fairport Convention is in general terms. For instance, you most likely will not be seeing Fairport on a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame voting ballot anytime soon, which is not so much surprising as it is infuriating, given the well-noted nearsightedness and blatant biases of Hall of Fame electors.

The late, great Sandy Denny never got her due as a rock diva, perhaps because she was never quite as pretentious as Stevie Nicks or over-the-top as Janis Joplin, and remained loyal to her folk music roots. But her voice is beautiful and ethereally distinctive, and if you are just getting into Fairport Convention but find Denny's vocals eerily familiar, it is likely you recall hearing her stunning duet with Robert Plant on "The Battle of Evermore" from Led Zeppelin's Volume IV album. Guitarist extraordinaire Richard Thompson seems to be suffering the same fate as Denny, praised by those few who appreciate his remarkable career (whether with Fairport Convention or his series of great solo efforts with his ex-wife Linda Thompson), and yet ignored because he does not fit in the mainstream of rock music. Such is the inanity of the recording industry that non-entities like ABBA , Blondie, and The Bee-Gees receive accolades, while truly gifted bands such as Fairport, Jethro Tull, and King Crimson remain unheralded.

Curmudgeonly editorializing aside, Liege & Lief is an electrified bit of traditional folk heaven, with many of the songs dating from the 16th through the 19th centuries ("Tam Lin", "Reynardine", "Matty Groves", "The Deserter"). As alluded to previously, the original compositions "Come All Ye" (Denny and Hutchings), "Farewell, Farewell" (Thompson), and "Crazy Man Michael" (Thompson and Swarbick) meld so seamlessly with the older material that it can be quite hard to differentiate the two, which is a testament to the group's superb songwriting skills.

"Reynardine" is an eerie ballad about a werefox (yes, werefox, not werewolf) that slyly draws a young woman to her doom with fair words to hide its evil intent. Although the song dates to the early 19th century, it draws on the medieval tradition of Reynard the Fox, a cycle of allegorical stories about a tricky but ultimately nasty animal antihero, wedded with later incarnations of vampire and werewolf tales. The sustained menace in the subdued guitar work of Thompson and Sandy Denny's vocal treatment is superb here, and the barely- veiled malevolence of Reynardine is finally revealed in Denny's subtle phrasing of "Sun and dark she followed him/His teeth did brightly shine/And he led her up a-the mountains/Did that sly, bold Reynardine."

In the same vein, "Tam Lin", a 16th century Scottish ballad, invokes the netherworld with the folk tradition of an earthly knight held in thrall by Mab, the Queen of Faery. The none-too- tragic loss of the heroine's maidenhead, tithes to Hell, shapeshifting, and love conquering evil ensue, but it is the electric minstrelsy of the band, particularly Swarbick and Thompson, that sets this tune apart from being a fey and thoroughly nancified renaissance faire rendition of ye olde broadside ballade.

But the centerpiece of the traditional songs on Liege & Lief is the incomparable "Matty Groves", a 17th century murder ballad of adultery and revenge, where the dull-witted (but obviously well-hung) Matty Groves is seduced by Lord Darnell's wife ? just after Sunday prayers, no less. Lord Darnell finds out about the tryst, catches the two in bed, a duel is fought, and the unhappy lovers meet their deaths on the edge of Lord Darnell's bloody sword. Lord Darnell, ever one to keep up the appearance of status and privilege, then suggests ironically to his servants, "A grave, a grave?to put these lovers in/But bury my lady at the top, for she was of noble kin." Swarbick and Thompson finish the song with a rousing several-minute duel of fiddle and guitar.

Elsewhere on the album, Richard Thompson's burgeoning songwriting abilities are highly apparent, and for one of such tender years (20-years-old at the time of Liege & Lief), far more mature than his age belied. "Farewell, Farewell" seems to mirror the overall sad tone of the album, with Denny breathing the appropriate air of melancholy into the song. In addition, the tune "Crazy Man Michael" is a musical descent into madness (a la Edgar Allan Poe) which chronicles a troubled man's manic discussion with a prophetic raven.

Musically speaking, Fairport Convention's departure from the Byrd-like What We did on Our Holidays and the Dylanesque folk of Unhalfbricking is quite pronounced, and Dave Swarbick's influence is most notable on songs like "Matty Groves" and the foot- stomping "Medley" (which contains the reels and jigs "The Lark in the Morning", "Rakish Paddy", "Foxhunters' Jig", and "Toss the Feathers"). Swarbick's roughhewn and masculine fiddling indelibly marked Fairport's future recordings and acted as blueprint for such groups as Steeleye Span (which Ashley Hutchings formed after leaving Fairport) and Jethro Tull (several members of Fairport have also been in Tull at one time or another) to explore different perspectives of British folk.

However, as British reporter and rock critic Nigel Williamson wrote in The Times, "Not only did Fairport Convention invent English folk-rock but they effectively destroyed it, too. Nobody could top the electrified versions of trad ballads such as Tam Lin and Matty Groves on their classic, genre-defining Liege & Lief ? after that there was nowhere left to go." Williamson's statement is perceptive but perhaps a little bit too heavy on the hyperbole. What Liege & Lief did in effect was to destroy the continuance of Fairport's classic lineup, due primarily to musical differences. Sandy Denny feared that Fairport was heading too far down the road of traditionalism, which would adversely affect her songwriting, and she left to form the band Fotheringay; whereas, Ashley Hutchings felt that Fairport was not traditional enough (and thus his next band, Steeleye Span, featured more reels, jigs, and selections from Child's Ballads). After the next Fairport album, the live recording Full House (1970), Richard Thompson also left for a solo career. Still, Fairport Convention managed to soldier on with guitarist and co-founder Simon Nicol, Mattacks, Swarbick, and new bassist Dave Pegg.

Doors open, doors close. People come and people go. But between the final, sad partings and first, furtive hellos, sometimes a spark of genius glows, caused by the friction of farewells and felicitations. Liege & Lief was just such a fortuitous meeting in the hallway, a brief interlude with a profound effect on all who shared in the encounter.

                                                                                                             

The Dark Elf"

 
Now that's some education that's appreciated.


Edited by SteveG - December 05 2018 at 03:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quinino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 04:11
^ Great reading,  thank you both !!!

(hats off specially to you, Greg)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 04:13
I've played the album again after a long, long time and what strikes me first, as always, is the rather amateurish production. As a recording engineer I can tell that this down to the type of microphones used, which is especially noticeable on Sandy's vocals. The album could also use a new remix but that will only lessen the problems and not correct them. But it would give several songs a bit more punch though.
 
The second thing that still strikes me is that the songs do not have the standard pop or rock verse, chorus, break, verse, chorus arrangements. Something that you will not find on follow up albums, at least to this degree, like Full House and Angel Delight. The musicianship, as always, is first rate and Sandy's vocals are absolutely mesmerizing and stellar. It's no wonder that producer Joe Boyd pushed her so hard to pursue a solo career. Fairport was indeed a one in a million band with this type of talent and it's no surprise to me that all this talent couldn't be contained within just one grouping at that particular time. Worthy of 5 stars? Why not? What else sounds like this and has inspired so many that followed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 04:18
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Superb album, a true masterpieceHeart. Is it prog? Who cares, with music that good? Anyway, the title is Liege and Lief (a word of Old English origin meaning "dear", "beloved"), not Leaf.
 

Seconded.

Note: The word lief is still very common in modern Dutch. The spelling and meaning are identical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 04:33
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

It's also strange that Renbourn , Jansch, Fairport , and Steeleye Span are represented here yet Thompson and Drake don't have a PA page under prog folk.......go figure. 
Renbourn and Jansch are listed under prog related with Renbourn added at my request. Jansch was already listed years earlier so it made little sense to me to have one listed without the other. Both Sandy and Thompson should be added with the same criteria that include Renborn and Jansch, imho. And Fairport should be listed under Prog Folk. Songs like "Matty Groves" and "Sloth" are, without a doubt, progressive.
 
Edit: It's time to petition the powers that be. Bob and Ken, are you listening?


Edited by SteveG - December 05 2018 at 06:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 06:39
Originally posted by BarryGlibb BarryGlibb wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

........

And no, it is not overrated. It is perhaps the best British folk-rock album ever released.


This.

A masterpiece. Should be prog-folk not prog-related. "Prog-related" undermines their influence on other subsequent prog-folk acts.

Richard Thompson was only 20 at the time; mind-boggling guitar work both electric and acoustic. Tam Lin sends shivers down the spine.

Born to play guitar, that one.  That was what I meant by how young everyone was.  Such an inspired recording.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 06:44
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I've played the album again after a long, long time and what strikes me first, as always, is the rather amateurish production. As a recording engineer I can tell that this down to the type of microphones used, which is especially noticeable on Sandy's vocals. The album could also use a new remix but that will only lessen the problems and not correct them. But it would give several songs a bit more punch though.
 
The second thing that still strikes me is that the songs do not have the standard pop or rock verse, chorus, break, verse, chorus arrangements. Something that you will not find on follow up albums, at least to this degree, like Full House and Angel Delight. The musicianship, as always, is first rate and Sandy's vocals are absolutely mesmerizing and stellar. It's no wonder that producer Joe Boyd pushed her so hard to pursue a solo career. Fairport was indeed a one in a million band with this type of talent and it's no surprise to me that all this talent couldn't be contained within just one grouping at that particular time. Worthy of 5 stars? Why not? What else sounds like this and has inspired so many that followed?

I agree with the production, SteveG.  It sounds almost like a live recording.  But it is still a phenomenal and unprecedented work in it's scope and virtuosity of musicianship (again, the ages of these people!).  
The songs not following the standard arrangements is also due to (at least the ones that are) reworkings of old ballads etc, which, thankfully, didn't have to follow those kinds of rules.  Smile  Longer attention spans were at work, sort of like the longer attention spans of prog fans, perhaps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 06:52
^ Oh, I'm quite use to these old ballads now but back in the day they really threw me. And listening to accompanied versions of traditional ballads sung in British folk clubs threw me even more at the time. Both sound quite normal to me now but I try to keep in mind that this could also throw newer listeners to this type of music, especially if they come from the States as I do.

Edited by SteveG - December 05 2018 at 06:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 06:59
Yes, this is where having been there when it happened can give a deeper perspective and understanding of how shocking/innovative/different it appeared at the time.  Most famous example, doubtless, Bob Dylan at Newport.  No, I was not there (sometimes I seem like I must be a female Forrest Gump, but not this time) but I remember the controversy from being aware at the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 07:03
^ Absolutely! My parents were two leftist folkies who thought that Dylan betrayed "the cause" by going electric! Such strange times in the US, for sure! LOL

Edited by SteveG - December 05 2018 at 07:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 07:07
My family was very to the left also, but we enjoyed the expansion to electric...I do know the attitude of which you speak, though, certainly.  Of course, some people don't get Dylan in the first place, that's another whole conversation.

The strange times were just beginning....  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quinino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2018 at 07:13
From May 2017:

Originally posted by Sean 
Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by Quinino Quinino wrote:

It suddenly came to my mind that Sandy Denny is not among us (and should ! imo )
We have the Strawbs, Fotheringay, Fairport - why not the lovely lady that sang and composed for these bands ?
Has this already been considered by the team?

only Strawbs are in a full fledged prog genre, if you can call prog folk full fledged.  Fairport and Fotheringay are prog related, and Sandy's solo material, from what I've heard would be prog-related related.  Bob or Hugues may have a better idea if she has been proposed before, but I would bump her to the admin team if anything

I checked my list and don't believe she's been proposed before but IMHO her solo work would fit as prog-related at best.  Technically she only had three solo albums, the first which was s/t and pretty traditional, maybe could be considered folk revival but nothing more.  The other two were kind of pop-flavored with a little bit of Bakersfield country mixed in.  I have two of the three and wouldn't consider either of them to be Prog Folk.

Love Sandy Denny but IMHO the closest she came to prog folk was her stint with Strawbs and possibly "Battle of Evermore".



not aware of most of her discography (only Grassman/ravens album) , but I'd tend to aqgree with that.




... and then she was rejected by the Admins Cry
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