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Second tier of "big" bands?

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Icarium View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2019 at 10:41
Supertramp is also there as a logical member of the progressive family tree as second tier.

They have and are of same generation and ambission as the prog originator but alongside Roxy Music and 10cc founded crossover prog. Cements a

also they share DNA with King Crimson with Richard Palmer James.

Procol Harum are also second tier

Edited by Icarium - November 25 2019 at 10:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Foxprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2019 at 11:29
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

If, as Psychedelic Paul asserts in his current "Elimination Round" poll, the "Big Six" are Pink Floyd, ELP, Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, and Jethro Tull, who are the "Second Big Six"?

?


ELP is out for me. VDGG for the win! Oh and for me it only Big Five, so Jethro Tull is out too :)

Some of possible from the next 6? (not in order)

Camel
Gentle Giant
Rush (even though i'm not the biggest fan)
Renaissance
Jethro Tull
Caravan
Mike Oldfield
Magma
Robert Wyatt

New school

Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree
Opeth
Anekdoten
and so on...

Impossible to make these lists



Edited by Foxprog - November 25 2019 at 11:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2019 at 11:51
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:


I like your choices: Can, Art Zoyd, Cardiacs, and Talk Talk (Post Rock/minimalism) have certainly all had their impact on the artists of the recent 25 years. Have Zappa, Camel and/or Renaissance had such an impact???

Zappa was very influential IMHO. Camel and Renaissance not so much. Renaissance probably somewhat more due to being the archetypical symphonic band. Henry Cow would probably beat Art Zoyd on impact, despite Art Zoyd having a catalogue of the size of all other first and second generation RIO bands combined, all of which is highly original work. When it comes to impact there's also hardly a way around Magma. Should probably have listed Gong and Soft Machine as further contenders (or members, if the tier of six rule is dropped). Tangerine Dream were hugely influential as well (not least on Art Zoyd), if somewhat marginal to prog rock.


Edited by Lewian - November 25 2019 at 11:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2019 at 12:19
I know camel has been very influential on me and the music I make at the very least!^^ but I’m not about to argue their influence compared to Zappa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2019 at 13:57
For me, it's
- Camel.
- Van Der Graaf Generator.
- Gentle Giant.
- Renaissance.
And then, thinking about subgenres, other countries besides England, solo artists, post 70's artists, etc, some that come to my mind (and some of which I don't even know):
- Strawbs.
- Hawkwind.
- Caravan.
- Rick Wakeman.
- Steve Hackett.
- Peter Gabriel.
- Rush.
- Kansas.
- PFM.
- Banco del Mutuo Socorsso.
- Le Orme.
- Ange.
- SBB.
- Marillion.
- Dream Theater.
- Porcupine Tree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2019 at 14:13
The Big Six were all UK bands from the 70's - so if we keep that in mind the next six should be:

Gentle Giant
Camel
Van Der Graaf Generator
Hawkwind
Renaissance
Mike Oldfield

Or we could do a new Big Six comprised of contemporary artists. That might look like this:

Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson 
Spock's Beard/Neal Morse
The Flower Kings 
Big Big Train
Dream Theater
Opeth
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 25 2019 at 19:54
If we go with Big 6 contemporaries: Camel, VDGG, Rush, Kansas, Gentle Giant, Supertramp. (Maybe ELO?)

If we go with post-70's bands: Dream Theater, Tool, Porcupine Tree, Marillion, Opeth, The Mars Volta
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 00:34
Personally I would take Tull out of the Big Six and put PFM in.

The next tier 
VDGG
Gentle Giant
(both criminally underappreciated in the day)
Rush (for influence as already said)
Marillion ( the only neo prog band that broke through)
Dream Theater ( easily the biggest prog metal band)
Spocks Beard ( kinda of post modern symph prog band that have stuck around)

I would rather include Anathema, IQ and Par Lindh Project but none of these have enough traction. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 03:36
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I would put Rush in the top tier, based on album sales and artistic influence and stature within the genre and the music industry. The certainly outsold and had a much further reaching influence on other artists than King Crimson ever did.

These discussions about which divisions bands are in, are difficult and very subjective without agreeing the criteria. Even if the criteria is 'progressiveness' there is broad disagreement about what that actually constitutes.


Great points! I think I was thinking of legacy or "influence upon other musicians" i.e. contribution to the creation of other bands and/or music. That's why I included the Canterbury artists cuz they had such a HUGE impact on other musicians at the time (or, at least, that's what all of the Robert Wyatt fans would have us believe).

While it's true that Rush has a massive sales advantage over KC and VDGG and GG, has their their sound and style had as much influence? (Probably, yes!) Has the influence of Camel or Marillion or Dream Theater (or Wobbler) had as wide-spread of an impact?

It feels obvious to me that ELP, Tull, Yes, Genesis, Crimson, and Floyd have all had HUGE and lasting impact in terms of inspiring other artists that have come after. Can the same be said of your choices for a "Second Six"? 


The influence of Rush will be broad throughout the industry. From Metallica to Iron Maiden, to Dream Theater to The Smashing Pumpkins to The Manic Street Preachers many have cited Rush as either an inspiration or an influence.

Of the agreed top tier acts, I would actually say only Genesis and Floyd have been of any real significant influence. Acts like ELP and Tull, although mighty in their tiem, have not had an obvious, far reaching influence on the music of others IMO. In fact the less high profile 'Krautrock' bands, and the likes of Hawkwind and VDGG were probably far more influential, going by their admirers in the punk, New wave and indie scenes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 16:32
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

The Big Six were all UK bands from the 70's - so if we keep that in mind the next six should be:

Gentle Giant
Camel
Van Der Graaf Generator
Hawkwind
Renaissance
Mike Oldfield

Or we could do a new Big Six comprised of contemporary artists. That might look like this:

Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson 
Spock's Beard/Neal Morse
The Flower Kings 
Big Big Train
Dream Theater
Opeth


Oh yes, Mike Oldfield, how could I have forgotten about him? He's one of my very favourites.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 16:38
I didn't choose Mike Oldfield in my list because you were asking for a second tier of *bands*.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 18:13
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I would put Rush in the top tier, based on album sales and artistic influence and stature within the genre and the music industry. The certainly outsold and had a much further reaching influence on other artists than King Crimson ever did.

These discussions about which divisions bands are in, are difficult and very subjective without agreeing the criteria. Even if the criteria is 'progressiveness' there is broad disagreement about what that actually constitutes.

Next to Pink Floyd Rush are by far the biggest prog band with the biggest album sales. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 18:15
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

The Big Six were all UK bands from the 70's - so if we keep that in mind the next six should be:

Gentle Giant
Camel
Van Der Graaf Generator
Hawkwind
Renaissance
Mike Oldfield

Or we could do a new Big Six comprised of contemporary artists. That might look like this:

Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson 
Spock's Beard/Neal Morse
The Flower Kings 
Big Big Train
Dream Theater
Opeth

No way would I put Big Big Train ahead of Transatlantic, Echolyn, Ozric Tentacles or Anglagard. They are a good band though.  I guess maybe it depends if you are going by popularity, influence or just personal taste though. If you go back just ten years BBT were barely on anyone's radar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 18:55
Oldfield would certainly make my list
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2019 at 22:36
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I know camel has been very influential on me and the music I make at the very least!^^ but I’m not about to argue their influence compared to Zappa.

Camel was very influential among 3rd tier and below prog bands.  Not a value judgment.  There are a bunch of bands with strong Camel influence
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2019 at 00:56
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I would put Rush in the top tier, based on album sales and artistic influence and stature within the genre and the music industry. The certainly outsold and had a much further reaching influence on other artists than King Crimson ever did.

These discussions about which divisions bands are in, are difficult and very subjective without agreeing the criteria. Even if the criteria is 'progressiveness' there is broad disagreement about what that actually constitutes.


Next to Pink Floyd Rush are by far the biggest prog band with the biggest album sales. 


They didn't outsell Genesis, and I'm not convinced they outsold Tull, I'd have to check, but yes they are up there.

Edit, Tull sold around 60 million albums, Rush sold around 40 million. Genesis sold around 150 million, and Floyd around 250 million.

Edited by Blacksword - November 27 2019 at 00:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2019 at 09:19
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

The Big Six were all UK bands from the 70's - so if we keep that in mind the next six should be:

Gentle Giant
Camel
Van Der Graaf Generator
Hawkwind
Renaissance
Mike Oldfield

Or we could do a new Big Six comprised of contemporary artists. That might look like this:

Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson 
Spock's Beard/Neal Morse
The Flower Kings 
Big Big Train
Dream Theater
Opeth

No way would I put Big Big Train ahead of Transatlantic, Echolyn, Ozric Tentacles or Anglagard. They are a good band though.  I guess maybe it depends if you are going by popularity, influence or just personal taste though. If you go back just ten years BBT were barely on anyone's radar.

I was trying to account for popularity, influence, etc. If it were up to me Dream Theater and Opted would not be there!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2019 at 11:33
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I would put Rush in the top tier, based on album sales and artistic influence and stature within the genre and the music industry. The certainly outsold and had a much further reaching influence on other artists than King Crimson ever did.

These discussions about which divisions bands are in, are difficult and very subjective without agreeing the criteria. Even if the criteria is 'progressiveness' there is broad disagreement about what that actually constitutes.


Next to Pink Floyd Rush are by far the biggest prog band with the biggest album sales. 


They didn't outsell Genesis, and I'm not convinced they outsold Tull, I'd have to check, but yes they are up there.

Edit, Tull sold around 60 million albums, Rush sold around 40 million. Genesis sold around 150 million, and Floyd around 250 million.

Well, I live in the US so I'm going by US sales. But you might be right. Over all Genesis and Yes might have sold more. Oops I mean Genesis and Pink Floyd. A lot of those sales figures aren't updated a lot of times anyway. It just seems these days Rush are number two behind PF. I'm referring to prog influence anyway not pop(most of Genesis sales are from their pop period).


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - November 27 2019 at 11:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2019 at 11:35
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

The Big Six were all UK bands from the 70's - so if we keep that in mind the next six should be:

Gentle Giant
Camel
Van Der Graaf Generator
Hawkwind
Renaissance
Mike Oldfield

Or we could do a new Big Six comprised of contemporary artists. That might look like this:

Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson 
Spock's Beard/Neal Morse
The Flower Kings 
Big Big Train
Dream Theater
Opeth

No way would I put Big Big Train ahead of Transatlantic, Echolyn, Ozric Tentacles or Anglagard. They are a good band though.  I guess maybe it depends if you are going by popularity, influence or just personal taste though. If you go back just ten years BBT were barely on anyone's radar.

I was trying to account for popularity, influence, etc. If it were up to me Dream Theater and Opted would not be there!!!

It can be tricky to gauge popularity and sometimes depends on the subgenre. Regardless as of right now I would put Haken and Thank You Scientist above BBT. TYS have two albums that landed in the top 200 with the latest coming in at number 73. I don't think you can say that about BBT(or TFK or SB for that matter). Haken have cracked the charts too although maybe not in the US.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - November 27 2019 at 11:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2019 at 11:37
I never even thought of Rush as a prog band until I arrived here. To me, they've always been a Canadian Hard Rock band. Smile
 
I doubled my Rush albums collection recently when I bought their Live album, "All the World's a Stage."


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - November 27 2019 at 11:42
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