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Did the 70's prog bands go too far?

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 15:42
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Nothing is by accident. It was meant to be. I first heard Tangerine Dream's and Goblin's music in movies, and liked both, before I knew what "progressive rock" was. In high school, the floodgates were opened by two friends (not mutual) who introduced me to Tangerine Dream and Rush. 

I first dove headlong into the electronic sector (Jarre, Synergy, Vangelis, etc.) and then the "rock" sector (Yes, Genesis, King Crimson).

When I got my first Wayside Music mail order catalog, I really went nuts. Then I started buying sampler tapes from Doug Larson, which led to me buying CDs from him (I was already buying from Syn-phonic).

I first heard Camel (became a fan) and Nektar (did not) by buying some old records in a shop. I also visited Tower Records, which was an hour-and-a-half drive for me, semi-regularly. I blew a lot of dough on music!

Ok, so that was late 80's?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 16:39
Mid to late '80s and very early 90s...

Edited by verslibre - September 08 2020 at 09:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mudpuppy64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 17:27
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

All those albums mentioned I used to stretch out on a sofa and dream away to the music.  That's hard to do nowadays with all the distractions, multitasking and shorter attention spans (no Iphones, tablets, laptops, limited selection on TV)  For me that is what made progressive music so great, you could just chill out in the evening with your head phones, close your eyes and get lost in Tales of Topographic Oceans, The Snow Goose, Thick as a Brick or Magma etc.


You have hit the nail on the head right there . But you forgot the little puff before hand lol .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 17:40
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

So you think there's plenty of newer bands who sound like the older bands and are doing the same things in a similar way? Sure, there's some but they sound like they are copying what was already done. It's hard for newer bands to put their own spin on it without sounding too avant gardish imo.
Um, yeah. The Flower Kings are most guilty. And doing the same things? Most all music is a copy of something. Can you name any band that doesn't sound, or have influences, from someone else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 17:41
Originally posted by Mudpuppy64 Mudpuppy64 wrote:


You have hit the nail on the head right there . But you forgot the little puff before hand lol .

LOL... yep and dreaming of Pink Fairies in Never Never Land... Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boboulo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 17:49
The answer is no, because the terms "progressive music" and Underground were synonyms back then, thus a declination from the established standards was expected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 18:45
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

So you think there's plenty of newer bands who sound like the older bands and are doing the same things in a similar way? Sure, there's some but they sound like they are copying what was already done. It's hard for newer bands to put their own spin on it without sounding too avant gardish imo.
Um, yeah. The Flower Kings are most guilty. And doing the same things? Most all music is a copy of something. Can you name any band that doesn't sound, or have influences, from someone else?

The Beatles LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 22:29
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

So you think there's plenty of newer bands who sound like the older bands and are doing the same things in a similar way? Sure, there's some but they sound like they are copying what was already done. It's hard for newer bands to put their own spin on it without sounding too avant gardish imo.
Um, yeah. The Flower Kings are most guilty. And doing the same things? Most all music is a copy of something. Can you name any band that doesn't sound, or have influences, from someone else?

influences are one thing but sounding like another band isn't really something that has ever interested me--a good artist (in music or visual art) can come up with something completely original like Yes or Genesis did and have influences but still sound original ---I don't love a lot of newer bands because the level of creativity isn't very high and the influences are obvious. Tales and the Lamb were thought to have gone too far back in the day but today they still sound amazing---especially the Lamb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2020 at 23:54
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I was just thinking about this for some reason especially because someone mentioned Nektar's remember the future somewhere else online. Compared to much of today's prog the older stuff seems a bit more wild to me(sure there are avant prog bands now but I'm mostly referring to the more traditional and symph kind of prog). Here are some examples:

Jethro Tull- Thick as a brick  It is a concept album covering an entire album with one song.

"          "  - A Passion Play - Similar to above with just one track over an entire album but a different concept.

Nektar - Remember the Future      Another concept album with just one song about a blind boy who sees into the future(or something like that).

Yes- Tales From Topographic Oceans        Four songs over a double album.

Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway   Not so much the music itself since it's mostly shorter songs but I can't think of a weirder concept in all of prog.

Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells (one track spanning an entire album but in two parts). His other stuff from the seventies would qualify too but this is the one I'm most familiar with.

Also albums by Gong and Magma. Of course there are plenty of other examples including but not limited to Grobschnitt, Triumvirat, Eloy, Banco, Caravan, Can, Tangerine Dream, etc. 

All you have to do is look at what these bands were doing and it was really strange at times and not just for it's time but even by today's standards. These bands were trying to be so far out it's no wonder very few of them were played on the radio. Today many prog bands seem to focus on shorter songs or at least songs under ten minutes long. Not back then. Whole album sides seemed much more common with strange album covers and concepts. I'm used to it but I can imagine younger folks these days thinking it was strange. Also, I wonder how much an influence drugs were on some of these ideas and music. It sure seems that way at times. The idea seemed to have been to go against the grain and just be totally different than most mainstream music. 

You didn't mention the most obvious massive elephant in the room

ELP - Pictures At An Exhibition

that really got the critics hot under collar. A rock band doing a complete classical work , just how dare they ( and with cannons) Weird noises coming from the Moog and what is that screeching sound during The Great Gate Of Kiev?! The crowd going totally bananas.
ELP invented a 'top' that no one else was capable of going over Smile


Edited by richardh - September 07 2020 at 23:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 00:19
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

So you think there's plenty of newer bands who sound like the older bands and are doing the same things in a similar way? Sure, there's some but they sound like they are copying what was already done. It's hard for newer bands to put their own spin on it without sounding too avant gardish imo.
Um, yeah. The Flower Kings are most guilty. And doing the same things? Most all music is a copy of something. Can you name any band that doesn't sound, or have influences, from someone else?

The Beatles LOL

The Beatles were very vocal in their admiration of Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Cliff Richards, the Everly Brothers, and Buddy Holly. Their songwriting and harmonies were heavily influenced by all of them early on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 01:48
I think you're over-thinking it, OP. This is progressive rock. The entire purpose as bands were progressing conventional rock tradition in unorthodox ways. They didn't go far enough in the 70's IMHO.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 03:00
Some did in the early and late 70's when they splatered some of this on the master tapes



thi,nking of TFTO, APP, Procol's Something Magic, ELP's Works, etc...




Edited by Sean Trane - September 08 2020 at 03:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 03:29
These suites of music are not songs. Songs have verses and choruses. And a bridge if you're lucky. And no they did not go too far. Is this the inference I should draw? There is a lot of anti AOR type comment which is when prog bands do ... songs. And get killed for it ... Asia... And then when it comes to yer long drawn out pieces they get slammed for that as well.

For a short time prog rock existed outside of a pop culture fashion / industry marketed trend. Then it operated inside this constraint. It was very funny when the industry finally was able to market this but not really keep it on life support.

Well done...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 06:50
I don't think so. Each band put two or maybe three albums that meets the criteria you've mentioned. The rest of their albums had plenty of songs that were "radio friendly" and many of them saw some commercial success, like Living in the Past, From the Beginning, Us and Them, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 07:25
Using historical context within popular music, yes, prog bands went too far (for their own good, pop-wise). Not to say I don't love and cherish the albums heretofore mentioned, but albums like A Passion Play (on the heels of Thick as a Brick), Works by ELP, TfTO from Yes and the indecipherable The Lamb Dies Down on Broadway led to the inevitable backlash by critics in the mid-70s, and by bands and the record-buying public that led to punk and then new wave.

It happened, it was a noticeable reaction, and by 1980s nearly every major band had juggled their lineups and changed their musical style (Yes, Tull, Genesis), were defunct (ELP), or were about to break up (Pink Floyd). King Crimson returned but their initial 1981 return release had flavors of Talking Heads/new wave via the Adrian Belew connection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 08:19
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I think you're over-thinking it, OP. This is progressive rock. The entire purpose as bands were progressing conventional rock tradition in unorthodox ways. They didn't go far enough in the 70's IMHO.

It's a hypothetical question and not my opinion but something I thought some people might think of about prog rock. Yes, the point was to be as different as they could(for some anyway)but did others think they took it too far and at what point did they jump the shark? I would say probably in 1974 but it probably depends on the band.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FatherChristmas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 15:00
Originally posted by FatherChristmas FatherChristmas wrote:

Of course they went too far, that's why they're called "progressive" rock! That's why it's so great!
Albums like the Lamb, Tales, and Remember the Future have always been viewed as over-pretentious, ridiculous and unnessecary by the general music press - which is probably true - but that doesn't alter the fact that we prog fans here love it, and if those albums and others had not been made, this website wouldn't be here. They were and still are essential to the creation of progressive rock itself, and thus the less pretentious, more sensible prog that less pretenious, more sensible people like you enjoy.
One more point: just because prog rock maybe "went too far" and progressed so much, perhaps, that it became a bit ridiculous, doesn't nessecarily mean it's not good music. You may never have thought that, but to those who do; consider my point.


Well, I stand by what I said. ^
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 15:16
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Some did in the early and late 70's when they splatered some of this on the master tapes



thi,nking of TFTO, APP, Procol's Something Magic, ELP's Works, etc...



What the heck! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 16:47
I'd rather say that some of them didn't go far enough. But in the same decade, Lou Reed put out Metal Machine Music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2020 at 18:01
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I'd rather say that some of them didn't go far enough. But in the same decade, Lou Reed put out Metal Machine Music.


The only way they could have gone further is if someone put out a triple album with one song on it. TongueLOL
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