Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Has The Archives lost it's way?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Has The Archives lost it's way?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 12>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65774 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2023 at 12:52
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Not all music progresses, and not all music that progresses progresses.
Hi,

Gee ... the arts have been dead for hundreds of years for you, then! there is always something or other progressing, but it obviously is not in your backyard! Wink
He was joking... 
No, I wasn't.   Clearly not all music progresses [Elizabethan, reggae, Gregorian, many others], and not all 'progressive music' continues to progress all of the time [classical/20th century, jazz, Popular, rock] .
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2023 at 07:36
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
King Crimson's debut was still recognisable music but the track lengths meant it couldn't be played on radio. That's where prog had its own power and was able to take it. 


Hi,

IF, KC did that album today, folks here on PA would likely trash it senselessly, because the album is all over the place, and the material is so way out in left field, with the exception of the two keyboard driven pieces that made it look like it is more conventional than the rest of the stuff. That incredible separation and difference, would confuse the listeners a lot today, who are used almost strictly to one sound ... all the way through an album!

The other thing, is that compared to a lot of stuff we see today, the KC album is a beautiful snapshot of LONDON at the time. It has it all, and we don't want to accept that because it gives the music more value and depth, something that we don't want in "progressive music" or "prog rock" since so many of us seem to not be as well educated to even appreciate something so intense and deep, and meaningful as an ART SCENE, instead of simply a rock song, which is how things are treated today for the most part!

The day we recognize the history that HELPED create so much of this music, is the day that Progressive Music, will make its mark as an ART FORM, instead of just some stupid fan driven thing with the worst definition of music ever devised, obviously by folks that don't know music!

If you get to see the KC film, you will learn one thing ... the high school bands (as I call them with bad drummers and such!), all go for the count. KC doesn't go for the count ... it goes for each and every player, but the listening ability and quality is something that we don't like to discuss ... it's depth is not only "spiritual" it is way beyond the majority of most people's ideas and thoughts ... and here we are, and the only stuff we vote in is ... stuck to the count, specially with a drum from high school!

You gotta grow out of the kid stuff and learn something about the music itself ... but you can't if the only focus you can maintain, is making sure that every 4th hit is on that snare drum ... because you think the folks around you will lose themselves, and you don't know how to get back to it all ... it just just how much "drumming" is not taught at Berklee and other places ... all folks can teach is timing ... screw the music!

I don't want PA to be another Berklee! A school just grinding out folks ... and not valuable in the end! You really think Mangini would be let go if he was a much better drummer than MP? NOPE. He was way too married to the numbers ... to help the music be freer and live better. And I'm not sure that he had enough input, but when all you do is MOR, then ... so what?


Edited by moshkito - November 04 2023 at 07:38
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Cristi View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams

Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 46433 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2023 at 03:22
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Not all music progresses, and not all music that progresses progresses.


Hi,

Gee ... the arts have been dead for hundreds of years for you, then! there is always something or other progressing, but it obviously is not in your backyard! Wink

He was joking... 
Back to Top
Awesoreno View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 07 2019
Location: Culver City, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3110 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2023 at 01:19
Just to address anyone that was referencing some of my points:

There's nothing wrong with enjoying or not enjoying retro prog. But if you think prog isn't exciting or "progressive" anymore, then it's not a far-fetched notion to assume you've only been listening to Karfagen, Karmakanic, TFK, etc. I don't dislike their music. It's pleasing to the ears. But it's not my go-to if I want something fresh. And fresh things EXIST now, as they have been existing forever. There IS ground-breaking music being made all the time.
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30068 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 19:49
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

I think calling it 'Progressive Rock' was a huge mistake. Lots of music progresses. Listen to Scott Johnson (classical) or Dreamcatcher (Kpop) or Glenn Branca (also Classical) or Holly Herndon (electronic) or Oxxo Xoox (Metal) and you'll hear something that's mixing new and interesting ideas into existing contexts ... but it won't really fall under the Progressive Rock umbrella, nor should it. Music progresses all the time and trying to create a genre about 'progression' just creates weird expectations. And a lot of these progressions are small iterations on previous ideas, even prog rock grew that way.

Why do people look down at retro prog? "Wow, I really love this band, I hope nobody ever makes music that sounds like them again"... do you think in other genres people act the same? While the fresh is appreciated and can stand out, an experiment that doesn't emotionally resonate, is that really a success? And when an experiment uncovers a method that works and does resonate, should we then abandon that result in search of something else? But because the music is called 'progressive', something that follows the tried-and-true methods of "symphonic rock" is considered derivative just by doing so, even if the performer brings their own context and approach to it, as bands like Phideaux and Moon Safari do. Neither would be considered 'groundbreaking' in the way it's been described in this thread but both made music that didn't exist before that sounds distinctly theirs.

I think the essence of "prog" is a drive to think "out of the box" musically combined with excellent musicianship. Our favorite albums from the 70s had that in droves, and many albums that are being released have it as well, in different forms. For example, I listened to the new Angra release today and tagged it as "Orchestral Prog Power Metal". Some might think of it as prog because of the orchestral elements, but to me those are merely artifacts of the style/genre. It is the unusual/surprising elements that deviate from that predictable pattern throughout the album which make it "prog" to me, combined with the overall excellent musicianship, including the orchestral parts and the "shredding". It is great orchestral power metal AND THEN SOME. 

It is the fascination with discovering this over and over again which drives my work on AwesomeProg.com, including countless hours of tagging and cataloguing new music.

Ultimately it comes down to our very own perception of what 'thinking out of the box is'. We can't take ourselves out of the equation so we can't know what that is. King Crimson's debut was still recognisable music but the track lengths meant it couldn't be played on radio. That's where prog had its own power and was able to take it. 
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 18:33
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

...
I think the essence of "prog" is a drive to think "out of the box" musically combined with excellent musicianship. Our favorite albums from the 70s had that in droves, and many albums that are being released have it as well, in different forms.
...
It is the fascination with discovering this over and over again which drives my work ...

Hi,

The amount of music today, compared to 50 years ago, is insane, and the fact that folks can post it and show it, which is a nice thing, in the end only seems to dilute a lot of the work and its quality. It will, also, make it harder to find things that have the stuff "in droves" like the earlier stuff did ... but I'm not sure that we can get around that with too many websites all commercially minded and continuing the record company trend of numbers, instead of sticking to the music.

At least, based on your listening, I find that not enough of us around here have the ear for that, and be able to find/hear some different things. I check Andrea's thread all the time, and DamoX's thread all the time, as if I were looking for something new, and occasionally it happens, but in general, too many of them have a "similar" sound to something already out there, and the "in droves" will not happen as much, as long as the stuff that we are seeing continue to use the same instruments over and over and over and over again ... and expect us to find something "new" ... which ends up being very rare.

I don't want any of the Progressive websites to lose their way ... but PA needs to move past the top ten, and I think their Admins, might help things along by concentrating on posting on new things ... including additions, which almost none of them do! It would be a nice introduction to the bands ... and we're not helping much, although we are adding them ... but they do say that you putting your finger in the ocean can be felt in the next continent ... however slight that might be! Such is the case with so much music ... but at least you are listing and showing covers and making sure we see them ... just recently I found "Fish on Friday" and wanted to listen to it, but the place with the music wants to charge me for it ... I declined as I can not afford it.

Life goes on, I guess ... one more day before the ashes and all the music anything left behind and forgotten!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 18:22
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Not all music progresses, and not all music that progresses progresses.


Hi,

Gee ... the arts have been dead for hundreds of years for you, then! there is always something or other progressing, but it obviously is not in your backyard! Wink
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21752 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 16:56
Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

I think calling it 'Progressive Rock' was a huge mistake. Lots of music progresses. Listen to Scott Johnson (classical) or Dreamcatcher (Kpop) or Glenn Branca (also Classical) or Holly Herndon (electronic) or Oxxo Xoox (Metal) and you'll hear something that's mixing new and interesting ideas into existing contexts ... but it won't really fall under the Progressive Rock umbrella, nor should it. Music progresses all the time and trying to create a genre about 'progression' just creates weird expectations. And a lot of these progressions are small iterations on previous ideas, even prog rock grew that way.

Why do people look down at retro prog? "Wow, I really love this band, I hope nobody ever makes music that sounds like them again"... do you think in other genres people act the same? While the fresh is appreciated and can stand out, an experiment that doesn't emotionally resonate, is that really a success? And when an experiment uncovers a method that works and does resonate, should we then abandon that result in search of something else? But because the music is called 'progressive', something that follows the tried-and-true methods of "symphonic rock" is considered derivative just by doing so, even if the performer brings their own context and approach to it, as bands like Phideaux and Moon Safari do. Neither would be considered 'groundbreaking' in the way it's been described in this thread but both made music that didn't exist before that sounds distinctly theirs.

I think the essence of "prog" is a drive to think "out of the box" musically combined with excellent musicianship. Our favorite albums from the 70s had that in droves, and many albums that are being released have it as well, in different forms. For example, I listened to the new Angra release today and tagged it as "Orchestral Prog Power Metal". Some might think of it as prog because of the orchestral elements, but to me those are merely artifacts of the style/genre. It is the unusual/surprising elements that deviate from that predictable pattern throughout the album which make it "prog" to me, combined with the overall excellent musicianship, including the orchestral parts and the "shredding". It is great orchestral power metal AND THEN SOME. 

It is the fascination with discovering this over and over again which drives my work on AwesomeProg.com, including countless hours of tagging and cataloguing new music.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - November 03 2023 at 16:57
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65774 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 15:50
Not all music progresses, and not all music that progresses progresses.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30068 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 14:56
Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

I think calling it 'Progressive Rock' was a huge mistake. Lots of music progresses. Listen to Scott Johnson (classical) or Dreamcatcher (Kpop) or Glenn Branca (also Classical) or Holly Herndon (electronic) or Oxxo Xoox (Metal) and you'll hear something that's mixing new and interesting ideas into existing contexts ... but it won't really fall under the Progressive Rock umbrella, nor should it. Music progresses all the time and trying to create a genre about 'progression' just creates weird expectations. And a lot of these progressions are small iterations on previous ideas, even prog rock grew that way.

Why do people look down at retro prog? "Wow, I really love this band, I hope nobody ever makes music that sounds like them again"... do you think in other genres people act the same? While the fresh is appreciated and can stand out, an experiment that doesn't emotionally resonate, is that really a success? And when an experiment uncovers a method that works and does resonate, should we then abandon that result in search of something else? But because the music is called 'progressive', something that follows the tried-and-true methods of "symphonic rock" is considered derivative just by doing so, even if the performer brings their own context and approach to it, as bands like Phideaux and Moon Safari do. Neither would be considered 'groundbreaking' in the way it's been described in this thread but both made music that didn't exist before that sounds distinctly theirs.

Thumbs Up
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15713 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 14:43
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I'm in the minority of those who prefer derivative modern prog that heavily references the 70's stuff over the shiny mordern contemporary innovative music. To me personally, what matters is the musical/sonical elements in the music which I find appealing and not whether it's a copy of something from the past or not.

And where does this "minority" idea come from? Ermm


Edited by David_D - November 03 2023 at 17:15
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21752 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 14:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

"quality over quantity" LOL


Hi,

With only one problem. You are making an assumption that all "quantity" has not enough quality for your ears!

I guess you don't listen to music much ... and you don't enjoy the long things much ... which was one of the more important things that helped bring about "progressive", and helped establish it. This was also the case in jazz. No one here goes around saying that his quantity isn't quality and that it is crap!

Methinks (methinks!!!) that you might need to get your musical ideas correct with your words. That comment is the worse when it comes to "progressive" music ... oh I forget, you like the 4-5 minute "prog-rock" stuff way better thus, quantity is worthless.




Thanks for the insult, it’s been a long time since you last insulted me, I had almost forgotten. Welll, I wasn’t talking about music.
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15713 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 14:17
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I'm in the minority of those who prefer derivative modern prog that heavily references the 70's stuff over the shiny mordern contemporary innovative music. To me personally, what matters is the musical/sonical elements in the music which I find appealing and not whether it's a copy of something from the past or not.
A growing minority.

Thumbs Up
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65774 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 14:13
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I'm in the minority of those who prefer derivative modern prog that heavily references the 70's stuff over the shiny mordern contemporary innovative music. To me personally, what matters is the musical/sonical elements in the music which I find appealing and not whether it's a copy of something from the past or not.
A growing minority.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15713 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 14:03
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I'm in the minority of those who prefer derivative modern prog that heavily references the 70's stuff over the shiny mordern contemporary innovative music. To me personally, what matters is the musical/sonical elements in the music which I find appealing and not whether it's a copy of something from the past or not.

Thumbs Up
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
TheGazzardian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8844 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote TheGazzardian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 11:47
I think calling it 'Progressive Rock' was a huge mistake. Lots of music progresses. Listen to Scott Johnson (classical) or Dreamcatcher (Kpop) or Glenn Branca (also Classical) or Holly Herndon (electronic) or Oxxo Xoox (Metal) and you'll hear something that's mixing new and interesting ideas into existing contexts ... but it won't really fall under the Progressive Rock umbrella, nor should it. Music progresses all the time and trying to create a genre about 'progression' just creates weird expectations. And a lot of these progressions are small iterations on previous ideas, even prog rock grew that way.

Why do people look down at retro prog? "Wow, I really love this band, I hope nobody ever makes music that sounds like them again"... do you think in other genres people act the same? While the fresh is appreciated and can stand out, an experiment that doesn't emotionally resonate, is that really a success? And when an experiment uncovers a method that works and does resonate, should we then abandon that result in search of something else? But because the music is called 'progressive', something that follows the tried-and-true methods of "symphonic rock" is considered derivative just by doing so, even if the performer brings their own context and approach to it, as bands like Phideaux and Moon Safari do. Neither would be considered 'groundbreaking' in the way it's been described in this thread but both made music that didn't exist before that sounds distinctly theirs.
Back to Top
Logan View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 38332 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 10:49
^ I think you may have missed that Mike was referencing David's signature in regards to a very minimalist and potentially very ambiguous/cryptic response. Context is key.

Edited by Logan - November 03 2023 at 11:05
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 10:39
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

"quality over quantity" LOL

Hi,

With only one problem. You are making an assumption that all "quantity" has not enough quality for your ears!

I guess you don't listen to music much ... and you don't enjoy the long things much ... which was one of the more important things that helped bring about "progressive", and helped establish it. This was also the case in jazz. No one here goes around saying that his quantity isn't quality and that it is crap!

Methinks (methinks!!!) that you might need to get your musical ideas correct with your words. That comment is the worse when it comes to "progressive" music ... oh I forget, you like the 4-5 minute "prog-rock" stuff way better thus, quantity is worthless.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15713 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 09:37

But If you mean what I might think, I'd say, maybe too much good quality. Big smile
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15713 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2023 at 06:46
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

"quality over quantity" LOL

Now, I could wish a more exhausting reply. 
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.230 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.