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Does prog have to be complex to be prog?
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Poll Question: In your opinion does prog have to be complex to be prog?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [11.11%]
37 [82.22%]
2 [4.44%]
1 [2.22%]
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mathman0806 View Drop Down
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Points: 6863 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

Surely no, many progressive classics are just songs.
I agree. I can't think of "wonderous stories" or "I know what I like" as anything but prog and they aren't complex. I'm sure there are tons of other examples too.
I started this poll because I seem to keep hearing (mostly online) people say prog has to be complicated with odd time sigs to be prog. If that's the case then a lot of neo, prog folk, psych prog, post rock etc. aren't prog. A lot of stuff by Big Big Train is mostly just songs and not complex. If they aren't prog then what are they?

Bad prog.

There's a difference between "bad prog" and "not prog".
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mathman0806 View Drop Down
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Points: 6863 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:20
A band can be considered progressive and still have some of their songs not be.
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65914 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:22
^ There does seem to be some ambiguity in the question-- A prog rock band can record music that is not prog, and a pop band can record music that is not pop.   But the music is what it is.

As for 'bad' versus 'not' prog, they can be different but in the laboratory it usually comes up the same: it's prog rock or it ain't.
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Points: 2324 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:26
No... also just because a track is long or complex it doesn't necessarily make it prog.
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Points: 65914 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:32
^ If a rock track is both long and complex it most certainly is prog.
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mathman0806 View Drop Down
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Points: 6863 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote mathman0806 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:37
My opinion is that in order to be bad prog, it has to be prog.

Like, a cat is not a bad dog. It's just not a dog.
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Points: 47010 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:42
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

My opinion is that in order to be bad prog, it has to be prog.
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Points: 65914 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 15:45
Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

My opinion is that in order to be bad prog, it has to be prog.

Like, a cat is not a bad dog. It's just not a dog.

Well yeah, as I said on the last page, the examples cited may've been bad prog.
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No - Tangerine Dream
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I think the question is a tautology. If it's Prog, then it's Prog.

There is complex prog. There is non-complex Prog. Prog is Prog.
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JD View Drop Down
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Points: 18446 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 16:02
Absolutely...NOT !
But it should at least be interesting. Cord progressions, harmonies & melody can all play a part in the 'Prog' classification. Complex suggests that there is a level of difficulty in the execution (think math) of the composition. There are tons of 'Prog' songs that are not complex. You may as well say 'Does Prog have to have Moog or Hammond or church bells on the drum kit to be prog."
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Points: 12999 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2024 at 16:34
Bad Prog, True Prog, Real Prog, and Complex Prog.

Thanks PA for the labels.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - January 18 2024 at 16:35
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The poll looks about right to me.
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Nah, the best word I've heard used to describe prog is 'Unexpected', which doesn't always mean complicated. I voted 'No' 
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Prog can be complex from the start, or have complexity through layered simplicity. Either can be difficult to pull off unless the band is very good.
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Points: 21847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 00:30
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

My opinion is that in order to be bad prog, it has to be prog.

Like, a cat is not a bad dog. It's just not a dog.

Well yeah, as I said on the last page, the examples cited may've been bad prog.

The ratings would disagree, at least on Big Big Train. Maybe you just don't like Symphonic Prog?
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65914 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 01:32
^ Nope, my own ratings would disagree.   

A comparison could be jazz: Jazz is an improvisational form by definition.   That doesn't mean all jazz everywhere is strictly improvised, but it does mean it is a vital part of that music and of the definition of that music.   So yes, prog has to be complex to be prog though there are less complex varieties.




Edited by Atavachron - January 19 2024 at 01:51
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Bad Prog, True Prog, Real Prog, and Complex Prog.

Thanks PA for the labels.

you forgot 'pure prog". LOL
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Points: 47010 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 01:46
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Prog can be complex from the start, or have complexity through layered simplicity. Either can be difficult to pull off unless the band is very good.

True. Thumbs Up
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Points: 21847 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2024 at 02:08
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Nope, my own ratings would disagree.

Sure, if your own ratings are low for something then you think it's bad. But does that make it bad, in general, for everyone? That's the implication when you say "X is bad" as opposed to "I don't like X".

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

A comparison could be jazz: Jazz is an improvisational form by definition.   That doesn't mean all jazz everywhere is strictly improvised, but it does mean it is a vital part of that music and of the definition of that music.   So yes, prog has to be complex to be prog though there are less complex varieties.

I agree - some form of complexity usually makes a piece of music "prog". But that complexity can come in different shapes - it does not necessarily need to be virtuosic playing or time signatures. For post rock, as an example, it can be intricate layering of sounds, using instruments in unusual ways, etc..
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