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More significant to Prog, Magma or Kansas? |
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David_D 
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15844 |
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 Posted: January 28 2024 at 13:00 |
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About Kansas, they're nothing like matching top bands in my book. Some of their albums are quite high-rated on PA but not on RYM where the numbers of ratings are much bigger. Edited by David_D - January 28 2024 at 13:33 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Big Sky
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Joined: October 24 2022 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1112 |
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 15:38 |
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David, Pretty much the numbers of most artists and bands on PA is going to have higher numbers than what you will find on RYM. Yes only has one album over a 4 rating on RYM (CTTE 4.16), Genesis has one (Selling England by the Pound 4.01), Jethro Tull has one (TAAB 4.01), Rush none, etc. If you want to compare Kansas top albums to say Styx, Boston or Supertramp on RYM. Kansas: Leftoverture (3.67), Point of Know Return (3.66), Song for America (3.66) Styx: Pieces of Eight (3.5), Grand Illusion (3.48), Crystal Ball (3.47) Boston: Boston (3.63), Don't Look Back (3.35), Third Stage (3.12) Supertramp: Breakfast in America (3.85), Crime of the Century (3.83), Even in the Quietest of Moments (3.71). Some other big artists top ranking album rating on RYM. Bruce Springsteen, Born to Run (3.95); Blondie, Parallel Lines (3.81), John Lennon, Imagine (3.65); Van Halen, Van Halen (3.73); Michael Jackson, Thriller (3.99); Taylor Swift, Folklore (3.47); Earth Wind and Fire, I Am (3.73); The Cars, The Cars (3.73); John Mellencamp, Lonesome Jubilee (3.65); Soundgarden, Superunknown (3.88); Steely Dan, Aja (4.01); Muse, Origin of Symmetry (3.66); Garth Brooks, Garth Brooks (3.21); Beastie Boys, Paul's Boutique (3.94); Seal, Seal (3.48); Snoop Dogg, Doggystyle (3.85); Grateful Dead, American Beauty (3.67); Dave Matthews Band, Before These Crowded Streets (3.53); Pearl Jam, Ten (3.74). There are some artists that do rate higher on RYM than on PA, Radiohead being a notable artist with three albums that have a rating over 4 on RYM and only 1 album on PA. But in general, forums that focus on a genre that artists fall will do better than on RYM. Magma's top rated album on RYM is K.A. (3.84). There are 9 albums on PA with a rating over 4. |
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Hrychu
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Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 6062 |
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 16:01 |
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I won't vote cause I'm not a prog historian. :P But personally I don't really like Magma all that much. Their stuff is just too goofy and weird for the sake of being weird to me. Even for prog standards.
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Big Sky
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 16:54 |
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I would say if you have heard of the band Kansas, pretty good chance you also have heard of Carry on Wayward Son. That song, also is listed as a Progressive Rock/ Hard Rock under genre. The question may be why is Kansas not seen as a Progressive Rock band by some. Is it because they are popular? Is it because they are accessible? Is it because they are an American band? Three of the most popular songs from Kansas, Carry on Wayward Son, Dust in the Wind and Point of Know Return musically have many elements associated with Progressive Rock. The lyric content is something that would be found in Prog. In comparison are songs like I've Seen All Good People, Lucky Man and Aqualung, to name 3 songs that receive radio play on Classic Rock stations from certified Prog Rock Bands, more "Proggy" than the three songs I listed from Kansas? As far as Magma and their influence, I know Steven Wilson and Michael Akerfeldt are fans. Obviously they are influential in the Zeuhl genre of Prog. My question is what major band has Magma had a big direct influence because, I honestly don't know? Kansas influence maybe larger in other genres of music, but we do know that the band has a number Prog artists who are fans of Kansas. It could be that Kansas has more influence in the U.S. and Magma more so in Europe. Edited by Big Sky - January 29 2024 at 12:48 |
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David_D
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15844 |
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 17:34 |
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I agree that the general level of ratings is higher on PA than RYM but still, the highest ratings of Prog albums on RYM are a lot more than Kansas' 3.66-67, and for the classics look like:
WYWH - 4.33, ItCotCK - 4.32, TDSotM - 4.23, Animals - 4.18, Red - 4.24, CttE - 4.16, Larks' Tongues - 4.02, SEbtP - 4.00, TaaB - 4.00, Foxtrot - 3.97, Mirage - 3.97, Meddle - 3.97, The Lamb - 3.96, Fragile - 3.94, Moving Pictures - 3.92, Pawn Hearts - 3.92, Sheherazade and Other Stories - 3.92, Godbluff - 3.90, In the Land of Grey and Pink - 3.90, SM's Third - 3.90, One Size Fits All - 3.90, Aqualung - 3.89, Rock Bottom - 3.88. Edited by David_D - January 28 2024 at 18:01 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Online Points: 19414 |
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 18:33 |
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I don't know about that unless you are either brand new to prog or a very casual prog fan who doesn't know much beyond the big six. If we changed your statement to "you could be a fan of rock and still not have heard of Magma etc" then I would definitely agree with you. Magma headlined the North East Art Rock Festival (Nearfest) twice. They couldn't have done that if they weren't pretty well known in prog circles.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 28 2024 at 18:55 |
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Big Sky
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 19:20 |
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The difference between PA and RYM rating of Kansas's Leftoverture is .56 (PA 4.23 RYM 3.67). When comparing PA to RYM ratings there is a greater difference between Genesis Foxtrot rating (.64), Selling England by the Pound (.65) and Jethro Tull TAAB (.64) than with Leftoverture. A quick look shows there are a number of classic Prog albums that are rated on RYM lower than Kansas's Leftoverture, Point of Know Return and Song for America. That includes Yes's Going for the One and Tales from Topographic Oceans, all of ELP's studio run of albums from their debut album to BSS and Genesis's Wind and Wuthering. Not saying I necessarily agree with that. Still, Kansas has three albums that rate high enough to be recommended on RYM. Leftoverture and Point of Know Return are classics in the Prog Rock genre and also what has become known as Classic Rock. Song for America, especially for a fan of Symphonic Prog, is essential. I don't know if RYM is better at rating Prog Albums than PA. I would need to know the demographics, biases (genres and bands), what is the process for rating albums, how are outliers treated, etc from RYM. It seems on the surface, that major pop artists, if Taylor Swift and Garth Brooks are any indication, don't fare well. I'm certain if the Swifties were notified of the rating injustices done to Swift on RYM they would make sure to change that. Edited by Big Sky - January 28 2024 at 19:22 |
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Saperlipopette!
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Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 13264 |
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 22:52 |
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Edited by Saperlipopette! - January 28 2024 at 23:12 |
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Cristi
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Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 46954 |
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 22:58 |
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Kansas are not like Styx, they have superior songwriting and performance, even skill if you ask me. Just because you didn't hear of them, that did not mean others did not appreciate them. I had three of their albums back in the 90s, listened to them all the time.  Edited by Cristi - January 28 2024 at 22:58 |
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Saperlipopette!
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Posted: January 28 2024 at 23:05 |
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^ My comparison wasn't meant as comparing them musically - as in quality (which I think I made quite obvious in the next sentence) but as two proggy AOR-bands that had radio hits and were million sellers in the US - while relatively unkown in Europe.
Edited by Saperlipopette! - January 28 2024 at 23:53 |
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David_D
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Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15844 |
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 00:56 |
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About Kansas ratings on PA, it's not like they're matching topbands', either.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20682 |
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 02:27 |
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clearly Kansas did more for mainstream prog's notoriety, but Magma is much more important - though it isn't mainstream prog at all.
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Edited by Sean Trane - January 29 2024 at 02:28 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Criswell
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 07:52 |
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I continue trying, but I just cannot get into Magma...
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Grumpyprogfan
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Joined: July 09 2019 Location: KC Status: Offline Points: 12976 |
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:07 |
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Cristi
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:19 |
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 I don't see how the Kansas album covers are corny.  Also corny covers is just as subjective as elegant covers, it's all subjective, isn't it?!
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Sean Trane
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:26 |
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Maybe it's corny because corn is Kansas' main export  Methinks it is more the Kansas logo Saper was aiming than the actual artworks. Can't say I appreciate the band's sleeves, except for the amazing Monolith. That inner & outer gatefold sleeve prompted me to write sci-fi novellas that have been long lost (probably thankfully so
Maybe not back in the 70's in France (though I can't imagine Dust In The Wind not scoring airtime), but both bands still get much airplay today on Belgium's state-owned Classic Rock 21 station and when both come to tour (twice together in the last decade) they +/- sell out their shows. Maybe not household appliance names, but classic rock fans know them quite well on the old continent . (function(){var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'84d2dc524ed691ff',t:'MTcwNjU0NTgzNi4wOTMwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< height="1" width="1" style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: none; visibility: ;">
Edited by Sean Trane - January 29 2024 at 09:31 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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David_D
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:28 |
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Maybe not exactly, but I surely find it cool.  |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Saperlipopette!
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 09:52 |
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Edited by Saperlipopette! - January 29 2024 at 12:16 |
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Big Sky
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 11:15 |
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Depends what you mean by top bands. In the symphonic category, the subgenre of Progressive Rock that is probably the most popular style of Prog, Leftoverture is #21 and Point of Know Return #30. Leftoverture is rated above ELP's BSS, Trilogy, and Tarkus, Genesis's Trespass and Wind and Wuthering, Renaissance's Turn of the Cards, Yes's Going for the One and Tales from Topographic Oceans and Rick Wakeman's Six Wives of Henry the Eighth. Those are highly regarded albums from some of the Big Boys. If you are saying it's not rated above above Close to the Edge, Foxtrot, Dark Side of the Moon, Thick as a Brick, Moving Pictures, Red, Octopus, etc, well those are the creme of the crop. Not many albums are ahead of those albums. My understanding is that any album that has a score over 4 on PA is considered an excellent album. Kansas has 4 studio albums that have a rating above 4. |
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Big Sky
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Posted: January 29 2024 at 12:28 |
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Quite a few bands that could fall in the category of only being big in their home country and not anywhere else. Of course, because of the size of the USA, a band could be popular regionally but, not in another region of the States. Certainly there are examples of bands being more popular outside their own country. One that comes to mind is Foghat, an English rock band who couldn't be picked out of a lineup in their home country but had 6 gold albums, one platinum and one 2x platinum album in the United States. If you're going to hit it big in just one market, the US would be the one to do it in. As far as the album art, it is all subjective. My friends and I thought Leftoverture and Point of Know Return was rather good. Just like Roger Dean covers found on Yes and Uriah Heep albums. ELP's BSS and the covers on the Boston and Meat Loaf albums were cool too.And being a history buff, I quite like the Tragic Prelude scene with the abolitionist John Brown on Kansas's debut album. But, what did we know, we were just teenagers. I sense a dig with the American AOR label you tossed out at Kansas and Styx (and by extension others) only being big in the USA (usually those bands found success in Canada too). I refer you to Foghat above. I'm sure they were fine being just hitting it big in just the USA. For most bands if there was one market to break it in it would be the USA. To be fair to Styx, they did have some success in Europe. Cornerstone went gold in Germany. Paradise Theater received a silver certification in the UK. Paradise Theater and Kilroy was Here reached #21 and #7 on the German album charts. Those two albums charted in the top 10 in Sweden and Norway. Edited by Big Sky - January 29 2024 at 12:45 |
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David_D wrote: