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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2011 at 12:50
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

 

No system anyone can ever come up with will be 100% on.  It's unrealistic to expect that.  You still haven't demonstrated how this is an argument against capital punishment.  If you should be railing against anything, its police / DA politics rather than capital punishment.  Whether you sentence a man to death or life in prison, you've taken away him.  And besides, you seem to forget that it takes many years to finally execute a person in this country now.

I'm aware of that. That's why I called it impossible. I don't expect such a system. I just won't kill people as a result. It takes many years, but it happens. I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Yes there's more time for an acquittal, but we kind of put our own cutoff point on it. I've laid out at least 3 reasons I disagree with capital punishment. I don't think I'm going to repeat them.

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Finally, if I saw a man who had just robbed me 30 minutes ago in the street, f**k yes the threat of danger is still there- he is still there.  If I see man who robbed me years ago, the threat is still there.  The threat of danger emanates from a person, not from anything else.  If a man murdered your child, and you spot him 30 minutes later in the street, no threat of danger?  If you say no, then I have no problem thinking you a coward and waffler of principles.

Yes Rob, as I said, in that sense the threat of danger is still there. If someone robbed you years ago, you can't punch him in the face just because you saw him walking down the street. The threat of danger is there, yes. That calls for you to be on alert. The imminent threat of danger is not there. That's what calls for self-defense. 

What would me answering no to that have to do with cowardice? What would if even have to do with waffling? There's a threat of danger. Is there an imminent one?  Impossible to tell from the hypothetical as stated. Can I shoot him in the face? Given the way I'm envisioning the scenario, then no I cannot. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2011 at 12:51
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Also, with serial killers, the moment of danger never passes- not for other inmates or guards.  Murder and rape happens in prison too.  There are some people who have forfeited their right to exist.

I mean, even if you put a dangerous killer in solitary, someone has to take his bread and water to him.  Suppose this killer comes up with ways of trying to harm the man that takes his meal down there.  Do we have to keep feeding the b*****d?

I think we need better cells then. I'd wager to think some entrepreneurs can figure it out. I find the scenario very rare anyway. 

Why would this apply to just murderers though. In that sense, the moment of danger for a thief never passes either. In the same sense, the moment of danger that you would murder your wife never passes. It's not a moment of danger just because we believe that someone will murder again.

Alright. Date night. I'll be back good and drunk to post later. 


That is why your scenario of "moment of danger" is moot.

And have a good time!  Cool

It was fun, but other stuff I'd rather not miss came up afterwards. I was a bit too drunk to post anyway. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2011 at 12:53
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Out of one mouth Rick Perry pretends to be a fiscal conservative wanting to slash the government and spending.

One the other hand he attacks Obama for ending the space station .

How the hell are these people taken seriously?



f**kin lol

The guy who keeps talking about how Texas may succeed from the nation?
Yeah, real winner there.

Even I who is a huge space nerd and loves all that stuff, thought it was great the shuttle program has ended. It may have been useful but cmon...what good has it been for 20 years? Certainly not enough to justify keeping it going! I'm cool with it being nixed.

Going back a bit, agreed Rob. Prisoners are not paying a debt to society, aren't being punished, aren't being "reformed" so might as well have something useful be done and work. On the flip side many prisons in the US, as we know, are horribly over crowded and increasingly just becoming a holding ground for drug offenders and mentally insane. I forget all the fun numbers but a large % are just mild drug offenders and we know they just keep cycling through. Legalizing drugs may be one step to resolving this!

I think you mean secede from the nation Wink
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 15:05
It's only a matter of time till someone says this Norway idiot had libertarian ideas.... Oh wait it happened.

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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 15:20
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

It's only a matter of time till someone says this Norway idiot had libertarian ideas.... Oh wait it happened.



What? He does.
It means nothing for you guys or any libertarian. He's just sick in the head. He twisted whatever he thought into such hate that he felt it fine to kill 90+ people but that's what can happen when you hold extreme views. CAN I'm not saying will go out and blow up government buildings so chill out Teo.
The mind is a powerful thing, he's held extreme views for close to 10 years it sounds like...if you're thinking something for so long it's going to impact you.

He was obviously weak willed obviously but it shows the potential danger of radical views.

My right to say it and I did Tongue




Edited by JJLehto - July 24 2011 at 15:26
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Anthony H. View Drop Down
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 15:29
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Even I who is a huge space nerd and loves all that stuff, thought it was great the shuttle program has ended. It may have been useful but cmon...what good has it been for 20 years? Certainly not enough to justify keeping it going! I'm cool with it being nixed.


The only reason it hadn't been doing good is because nobody was invested in research. Our ultimate future is in space, and investing in space exploration (publicly or privately) is one of the best investments we as a society could make. I think it's very sad that ultimately short-term economic problems caused us to shut our eyes to the long-term future.

If we cared about space as much now as we did in the late 60s, we'd have sent people to Mars a long time ago. It's unfortunate that the only reason we did care about it back then was because of politics, not a desire to explore.


Edited by Anthony H. - July 24 2011 at 15:31
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 15:41
omg Anthony you are such a liberal...Tongue


What's the point of sending people to Mars?
Like I said, I know the value and what good has/can come from it...but it's really not a big deal.
You did say privately funded, if some rich b*****d wants to that'd be awesome but there's really no need at all for us to be paying for it.
As you said, no one really cared (except at NASA) they should be happy the guvment kept it around as long as they did!
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 15:48
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:



Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

It's only a matter of time till someone says this Norway idiot had libertarian ideas.... Oh wait it happened.

What? He does. It means nothing for you guys or any libertarian. He's just sick in the head. He twisted whatever he thought into such hate that he felt it fine to kill 90+ people but that's what can happen when you hold extreme views. CAN I'm not saying will go out and blow up government buildings so chill out Teo. The mind is a powerful thing, he's held extreme views for close to 10 years it sounds like...if you're thinking something for so long it's going to impact you. He was obviously weak willed obviously but it shows the potential danger of radical views. My right to say it and I did Tongue
And I will defend your right to say it.

Edited by The T - July 24 2011 at 15:48
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 15:52
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

omg Anthony you are such a liberal...Tongue


What's the point of sending people to Mars?
Like I said, I know the value and what good has/can come from it...but it's really not a big deal.
You did say privately funded, if some rich b*****d wants to that'd be awesome but there's really no need at all for us to be paying for it.
As you said, no one really cared (except at NASA) they should be happy the guvment kept it around as long as they did!


Our long-term future. This planet is temporary, and if we want our species to continue and thrive, then we need to colonize space. Most scientists, including high-profile people like Stephen Hawking and Howard Bloom, agree with me.

People didn't care because they're too worried about ultimately meaningless modern issues to care about the far-away fate of humanity.


Edited by Anthony H. - July 24 2011 at 15:55
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 15:59
Oh yeah I've heard that before, either
A) we will wipe out the planet
B) as the sun expands the life supporting zone will move out of Earth

Either way we need to find a way to live on other planets for our long term.
Was a cool documentary.
Just seems unrealistic and I don't see us living long enough as a race to be able to ever manage that.

Besides we were so far from that. I'm OK with it, NASA was an area that could've been hacked away. I'd prefer they do it to the defense budget but I don't forsee that ever.
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 16:02
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Oh yeah I've heard that before, either
A) we will wipe out the planet
B) as the sun expands the life supporting zone will move out of Earth

Either way we need to find a way to live on other planets for our long term.
Was a cool documentary.
Just seems unrealistic and I don't see us living long enough as a race to be able to ever manage that.

Besides we were so far from that. I'm OK with it, NASA was an area that could've been hacked away. I'd prefer they do it to the defense budget but I don't forsee that ever.


The "OMG PEOPLE POLLUTE AND WILL DESTROY MOTHER EARTH" sh*t is annoying. But that doesn't change the fact that space is a necessary step for humanity, and the fact that nobody is willing to invest in it is depressing.
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Points: 10189 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 16:18
I read about 400 pages of the manifesto and speed-read the rest.


f**k
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Points: 12294 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 16:27
Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

I read about 400 pages of the manifesto and speed-read the rest.


f**k



One of my mates, a psychology master's student is reading it now. I can't be f**ked.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 17:02
Sorry Anthony, it's not lol

I'm trying to be polite but there's no other way to say it, it's not that important bro LOL
Least not enough for me to want to pay for it. Thieve my money to pay for social security OK, rocket to space eh.

Besides I thought we were still going to space, just Russia is spearheading it now. But that was from the radio and we know how I hate those guys ha


Edited by JJLehto - July 24 2011 at 17:03
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 17:08
Best manifesto was the Unabomber's. That guy was the essence of Agalloch amirite? 
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Points: 12294 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 17:22
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Best manifesto was the Unabomber's. That guy was the essence of Agalloch amirite? 


lol, one thing that has annoyed me is that Brevik has copied much of the Unabomber's manifesto. Now I'm not going to defend Teddy K, but that must make him pissed. I mean, they have almost completely different motivations. One wants to reconstruct a Judeo-Christian Europe, the other just hated society, they seem pretty adversarial to me.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 17:30
Yeah heard that as well, very odd especially in what they hoped to accomplish as you said.

Indeed, there's no defending his actions and dude was a batsh*t survivalist nut but I don't disagree too badly with Kaczynski (this will come back to bite me). Not the killing people of course that ain't cool
I just dont have the balls to go Thoreau. You like dat philosophical drop?


Edited by JJLehto - July 24 2011 at 17:39
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 18:19
Yeah buuuuuuuuuuut that is such a distant dream. I mean it's not just landing on Mars and building a bubble. Resources? Just so many factors, I can't see us living long enough to realistically achieve anything.

And I'm a huge space/sci fi nerd even!
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2011 at 18:21
Stephen Hawking is welcome to put as much of his money towards colonizing space as he wants.  As a highly influencial scientist he would also have no problem finding countless donors for this cause. 


Time always wins.
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