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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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The car analogy is flawed anyway. I guess that Oliver want's to hear how expensive your car was, and then he would ask if you enjoyed driving as much if you suddenly had to use a much cheaper and thus slower and less comfortable car - or if you wouldn't get much more joy out of driving a much more expensive car.
The basic point that Dean and I are constantly making is that there isn't such a big difference between cheap hi-fi systems and audiophile systems as far as the properties of the transmitted signal is concerned. Oliver keeps talking about power filters, but were one to measure and compare the signals that are generated, there would be no difference. With different speaker cables there would be a slight difference, but it could be demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that those differences are well outside the audible frequency range. This does not translate to comparing a crappy car to a brand new Porsche.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - April 15 2011 at 08:11 |
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Snow Dog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
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^ I definitely have a crappy car.
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ So you would enjoy an audiophile system!
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Snow Dog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
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^Who wouldn't? But car or no car...I want a pair of speakers in the £30 range. Why is that not simple for Oliverstoned?
How about these?
Edited by Snow Dog - April 15 2011 at 08:20 |
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oliverstoned ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
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So your speakers will match your car!
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Negoba ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
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We can't all own a Porsche or even a T-bird. But I'd rather have a dependable car that doesn't break down, isn't too noisy, gets good gas mileage, etc. I do alot of commuting and despite that being a horrendous listening environment, I still like listening to music. Many of us used to listen to music on radio signals that cut out half the time, or tapes that had sat out in the heat and were mush. Still loved it.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I drive a cheap Korean coupé. It does 145 mph and 0-60mph in 7.2 seconds - that's faster than a Merc SLK200 costing twice as much and I think it looks a whole lot better too - however it is cheap and it is Korean, but when it comes to getting a buzz when I push my foot to the floor it does the job asked of it and it makes me smile. Now, don't get me wrong I'd love a Merc, even with the high cost of ownership and the appauling reliability record - I am impressed by badges and price tickets as much as the next man. We buy cars to suit our needs and our personalities - I've always owned coupés, I wouldn't dream of buying a saloon, MPV, hatchback, truck, pickup or estate and a 4x4 Chelsea tractor is never going to be parked on my driveway. The same is true of hifi and any other "luxury" item - we buy what suits us and what fits our needs - I'd never recommend a Hyundai coupé to anyone unless they wanted a cheap, reliable, relatively fast, sports coupé, but I would point out that an Audi TT or a Toyota Celica is just as much fun to drive if you can find one in your price range.
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What?
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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![]() Are truly, horribly, awful.
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What?
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Snow Dog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
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I've had enough of you.
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oliverstoned ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
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Why are the cheap ones horrible, according to you?
Read the Naim designer interview: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/naim2/powerline.html Edited by oliverstoned - April 15 2011 at 09:43 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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What?
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oliverstoned ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
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The problem with you is that you have certitudes based on theories which for some reason don't match reality. There are system which work and on these ones the smallest change produces a difference. You don't imagine the effect of vibrations on any device, even those who don't feature mechanical parts. You don't imagine how a simple rhodium connectic may bring difference, etc...yes i put bullpack under my sp' cables (instead of the expensive cable's elevator) and it works even if it's subbtle. As you know only mediocre equipment and that you have not experiment all that i talk about, you believe that it's all in our imagination, or you prefer to deny it. And for some emotional reason, you can't stand that non-engineers may want to upgrade their system. Come at home and all your certitudes will fall like a card castle. You don't imagine how some system may sing, how lively and dynamic it may be, it pushes walls!! |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I test things for a living. It's what I have done for the past 30 years. These tests involve extremes of temperature, pressure, vibration and humidity and I have an education and training that enables me to analyse data to isolate probable cause from actual effect. If there is an effect, then given enough data I will narrow down the possible causes of that to aid the designer to remove those causes to minimise the effects. These are not certitudes, these are possible causes. What you have described to me in every exchange we have experienced is perceived causes without observable effects - every single "improvement" you cite is a cure for a cause that has no discernible effect. Yes you can mechanically isolate speaker cables from external vibration, however, you have not demonstrated that this vibration actually causes an audio effect - you have waived your metaphoric arms around and touted some vague quantum physics notions of electron movement in a conductor and you have intimated that Faraday's Law of induction will generate a current in a conductor that is moved in the Earth's magnetic field - however I have explained that the degree of movement in the field-strength created by the earth's magnetic field is too small to measure - what I should have explained is that this induced current is magnitudes smaller than the Boltzmann noise created by the electrons moving in that wire through ambient heat alone - and if you wanted to eliminate that from your system then you really need to look at cryogenics.
So fine, carry on throwing dispersions all you like. I've stopped listening.
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What?
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20825 |
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Even if you drove a Rolls, you'd still have a "fairly" crappy sound in it.
![]() ![]() Cars are about the most difficult thing to sonorize properly.... that it's really not worth shelling big bucks for it.
It may sound stupid, but the actual factory-installed deck is probably the best solution, at least in fairly above average cars (like my Saab 9-3)... indeed they designed it for the car's interior... and it's no use to thieves, because it'll only fit on the same model of car
wind noises, engine noise, great glass surfaces thieves, no ideal central sonic postion, forced speaker placement, road noises, wife & kids, the required attention to the road unfolding before you, etc... all are sifficient reasons why investing big €€€£££$$$ in the car deck is not advisable or likely to achieve really good results....
but do get rid of that Realistic or Tandy 8-track system though
![]() It's like your high-end hi-fi will only be giving good results in an adapted room.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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lazland ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13928 |
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^ I'm with Dean. I don't understand a word of this thread, but, anyway, you tell him
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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Negoba ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
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"The problem with you is that you have certitudes based on theories which for some reason
don't match reality." Reality is a pretty hard thing to pin down.
What you're calling "reality" is the fact that you perceive a difference that you like after making modifications to your system. That is the definition of subjective.
Dean is talking about measurable signals. Signals down to levels below the threshold of the human ear to transmit.
Some of the things you're telling us are like saying you can see through solid steel. We say "that's impossible" you say, "Well I can see through that. It's this tin foil cap I'm wearing."
It's your money. Waste it if you wish.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Catcher10 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 18085 |
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I like what my ears like....
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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That's the heart of the matter: Oliver for some reason isn't able to realize that he's the one with the subjective point of view that has no basis in reality. Dean has a science based view, and science is the best tool we have to describe the world we live in (reality). This kind of discussion can go on indefinitely - and it will always break down and start another cycle when Oliver plays the "but I hear a difference" card. It's similar in discussions about homeopathy, astrology and religion - at some point people make unfalsifiable claims, rational people will point that out - then maybe a little detour because of misunderstandings of terms like "unfalsifiable" - and then after a while it simply starts over.
![]() Edited by Mr ProgFreak - April 15 2011 at 12:40 |
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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I don't think for a minute that you can tell a good speaker from a bad one (EDIT: by looking at the specifications). You can surely list some speakers that sound good, but I doubt that you could give reasons for why these speakers are good that would convince me. I still remember what you said a couple of months ago about subwoofers ...
![]() Edited by Mr ProgFreak - April 16 2011 at 03:37 |
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oliverstoned ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
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Little story: yesterday my new (irish) neighbour/friend came at home and listened to my system for the first time. He's a musician and has been part of a spacejazz band playing Gong covers and jams in Ireland in the 90's. He even met Hawkind people in these days. He doesn't have a system working right now because of the kids but own two TTs and a vynil collection.
I tried to explain him that some scientists don't believe in good sound but he was just keeping on saying "whao" as he was so amazed by the sound, especially with the Quintessence record (see my sig). That is the usual reaction i get from people listening to my system. Another reaction is the audiophile who comes at home to buy something and get totally disgusted and depressed by listening to my system, comparing its sound to its own. |
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