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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Points: 37575
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 05:29 |
Avant/RIO ... Slapp Happy & Henry Cow - Riding TigersCrossover ... Moody Blues - The Story In Your Eyes Canterbury ... Egg - Seven Is A Jolly Good Time Eclectic ... Van der Graaf Generator - Man Erg Electronic ... Tangerine Dream - Ricochet, Part One Heavy Prog ... Babe Ruth - The Mexican Jazz Rock ... Mahavishnu Orchestra - Thousand Island Park Jazz Fusion ... pass Krautrock ... Neu! - Negativeland Neo-medieval/Baroque Prog ... has to be Gryphon - Gulland Rock Neoclasssical Prog ... The Enid - In The Region Of the Summer Stars (track) Prog Folk ... Tim Buckley - Phantasmagoria In Two Psychedelia ... Kaleidoscope - In The Room Of Percussion (not really, it's just one of my favourites ) RPI ... Le Orme - Ritratto Di Un Mattino Space/Atmospheric ... Hawkwind - The Psychedelic Warlords (Disappear in Smoke) Symphonic ... Renaissance - Innocence Zeuhl ... Magma - meh, no idea, pass
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 41787
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 05:43 |
Svetonio wrote:
Cristi wrote:
(...)
No, you cannot mention Genesis as neo-prog, whatever song you may mention.
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Of course I can. No one time I read on this Forum that ATotT and W&W are neo prog albums, and I agree. Btw, what about Inside And Out? A perfect Neo song indeed.
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Raff wrote:
A lot of people (here on PA and elsewhere) consider Genesis' A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering as the main inspiration for the original Neo Prog bands, so Svetonio does have a point. Regarding prog metal, obviously the subgenre as we know it now did not exist in the Seventies, but some songs by iconic metal bands might be considered as examples of proto-progressive metal. Case in point: Judas Priest's "Victim of Changes" and "Beyond the Realms of Death".
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Saying that Trick and W&W inspired neo-prog is one thing, labeling these two albums as neo-prog is another. I screwed things up with my progressive metal post which I edited (but it's here cause it got quoted), my mistake, I should have read the original post more carefully.
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someone_else
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 06:09 |
Avant/RIO................: Henry Cow - Beautiful as the Moon - Terrible as an Army with BannersCrossover................: Supertramp - Fool's Overture Canterbury...............: Khan - Space Shanty Eclectic.................: Gnidrolog - Lady Lake Electronic...............: Klaus Schulze - Mental Door Heavy Prog...............: Rush - Xanadu Jazz Rock................: Jazz Fusion..............: Krautrock................: Neo-medieval/Baroque Prog: Gentle Giant - Raconteur, Troubadour Neoclasssical Prog.......: Prog Folk................: Jethro Tull - Hunting Girl Psychedelia..............: Pink Floyd - Interstellar Overdrive RPI......................: Space/Atmospheric........: Pink Floyd - Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun (Ummagumma or Pompeiï version) Symphonic................: Genesis - Firth of Fifth Zeuhl....................: Magma - Kobaïa
Edited by someone_else - March 17 2015 at 06:12
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Svetonio
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Location: Serbia
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Points: 10213
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 06:22 |
Cristi wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Cristi wrote:
(...)
No, you cannot mention Genesis as neo-prog, whatever song you may mention.
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Of course I can. No one time I read on this Forum that ATotT and W&W are neo prog albums, and I agree. Btw, what about Inside And Out? A perfect Neo song indeed.
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Raff wrote:
A lot of people (here on PA and elsewhere) consider Genesis' A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering as the main inspiration for the original Neo Prog bands, so Svetonio does have a point. Regarding prog metal, obviously the subgenre as we know it now did not exist in the Seventies, but some songs by iconic metal bands might be considered as examples of proto-progressive metal. Case in point: Judas Priest's "Victim of Changes" and "Beyond the Realms of Death".
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Saying that Trick and W&W inspired neo-prog is one thing, labeling these two albums as neo-prog is another.
I screwed things up with my progressive metal post which I edited (but it's here cause it got quoted), my mistake, I should have read the original post more carefully.
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Actually, the prog community (whatever that means) has never reached a consensus about dilemma that neo prog is a genre which is exactly bounded by the time frame (eighties) or it is a style. If Neo Prog style didn't start with Merillion's Script for a Jester's Tear the album (1983), then One for the Vine is a great example of Neo Prog song recorded in seventies. In fact, BrufordFreak asks not for the champion bands of the PA genres, but for the songs that will best represent the genres at his radio show. So, for example, I could put on my list Genesis' The Knife as heavy prog song instead of Uriah Heep Salisbury and to not make a mistake at all; it's a same thing with One for the Vine as Neo Prog song as well.
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
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Points: 41787
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 07:47 |
Svetonio wrote:
Actually, the prog community (whatever that means) has never reached a consensus about dilemma that neo prog is a genre which is exactly bounded by the time frame (eighties) or it is a style. If Neo Prog style didn't start with Merillion's Script for a Jester's Tear the album (1983), then One for the Vine is a great example of Neo Prog song recorded in seventies. In fact, BrufordFreak asks not for the champion bands of the PA genres, but for the songs that will best represent the genres at his radio show. So, for example, I could put on my list Genesis' The Knife as heavy prog song instead of Uriah Heep Salisbury and to not make a mistake at all; it's a same thing with One for the Vine as Neo Prog song as well. |
It sounds complicated, to me neo-prog started with Twelfth Night, Marillion and IQ. It makes sense, to make a distinction concerning the new wave of bands trying to play progressive rock, symphonic prog inspired, in the 80s. As for bands belonging to god knows what genres, I've seen German band Jane being labeled as Krautrock. Is it a mistake? I wouldn't say that. Deep Purple is labeled as proto-prog, heavy prog, prog related, hard rock, heavy psych, heavy metal. Which is it? ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) Or is it all of them? ![Confused Confused](smileys/smiley5.gif) And the one I dislike the most is seeing Black Sabbath labeled as doom metal or god forbid stoner. And I could think of some more.
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 08:22 |
Cristi wrote:
It sounds complicated, to me neo-prog started with Twelfth Night, Marillion and IQ. It makes sense, to make a distinction concerning the new wave of bands trying to play progressive rock, symphonic prog inspired, in the 80s.
As for bands belonging to god knows what genres, I've seen German band Jane being labeled as Krautrock. Is it a mistake? I wouldn't say that. Deep Purple is labeled as proto-prog, heavy prog, prog related, hard rock, heavy psych, heavy metal. Which is it? Or is it all of them? And the one I dislike the most is seeing Black Sabbath labeled as doom metal or god forbid stoner. And I could think of some more. |
The solution is album-tagging and multi-tagging. This way we could document the various styles that a band covered in their lifetime and categorise their albums to more helpfully to anyone one interested in a particular sound. It must be emphasised that once you hear an album for yourself any prior categorisation of that album becomes essentially meaningless, it is merely a guide for those who haven't heard it. Categorising bands is an exercise in futility because bands have an annoying habit of deliberately defying convention.
None of the early Neo Prog bands thought they were creating a new subgenre of Progressive Rock music and I would be very surprised if any of them considered themselves or the albums they recorded to be neo anything at the time. They were young Prog bands continuing the established genre and the Neo Prog tag is something that was applied to them retrospectively. They certainly were not new-wave bands trying to play Progressive Rock - some of these bands, while not securing a recording contract until the early 80s, had their origins in the late 70s - simply listening to the early (demo & tape) recordings of Twelfth Night reveals no "new-wave" influence or stylings.
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
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Points: 41787
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 09:10 |
Dean wrote:
None of the early Neo Prog bands thought they were creating a new subgenre of Progressive Rock music and I would be very surprised if any of them considered themselves or the albums they recorded to be neo anything at the time. They were young Prog bands continuing the established genre and the Neo Prog tag is something that was applied to them retrospectively. They certainly were not new-wave bands trying to play Progressive Rock - some of these bands, while not securing a recording contract until the early 80s, had their origins in the late 70s - simply listening to the early (demo & tape) recordings of Twelfth Night reveals no "new-wave" influence or stylings. |
you nailed it
Edited by Cristi - March 17 2015 at 09:35
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BrufordFreak
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Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
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Points: 8005
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 13:48 |
Thanks, Dean! You honor me!
Dean wrote:
Avant/RIO ... Slapp Happy & Henry Cow - Riding Tigers was thinking Henry Cow or The MothersCrossover ... Moody Blues - The Story In Your Eyes Nice one! Moodies, Family, Supertramp, even PG's first solo album all work for me Canterbury ... Egg - Seven Is A Jolly Good Time Yes! I was leaning toward Egg, too, I don't know why. Kind of 'mature' but still fun Robert Wyatt Eclectic ... Van der Graaf Generator - Man Erg Was listening to Pawn Hearts and Godbluff all night last night. Tough to nock out Starless, though. Depends if I decide time is a factor. Electronic ... Tangerine Dream - Ricochet, Part One Again, not sure how much time I want to give to "the old stuff"--aside from introducing the sub-genre. Heavy Prog ... Babe Ruth - The Mexican What?!?!? Another new one?!!! Jazz Rock ... Mahavishnu Orchestra - Thousand Island Park Think I might go with one of Cobham's but MO is definitely in the conversation! Jazz Fusion ... pass Is that Joe Pass? Am leaning to Herbie or Joe Henderson Mwandishi era. Krautrock ... Neu! - Negativeland Like the Neu! ideas. Can, too. Something shorter than Ash Ra or Amon D. Neo-medieval/Baroque Prog ... has to be Gryphon - Gulland Rock Awesome choice! I was perusing Mushrumps for just such a choice! Neoclasssical Prog ... The Enid - In The Region Of the Summer Stars (track) Cool! Had that one cued up, too! Prog Folk ... Tim Buckley - Phantasmagoria In Two Not sure if Tim is my choice to represent. So many to choose from! Psychedelia ... Kaleidoscope - In The Room Of Percussion (not really, it's just one of my favorites ) Never heard of them/it!! RPI ... Le Orme - Ritratto Di Un Mattino Le Orme over Banco, PFM, Museo, Osanna. Tough call but I'm leaning toward Raff's suggestion: "Dopo..." Space/Atmospheric ... Hawkwind - The Psychedelic Warlords (Disappear in Smoke) This may hurt, but, I haven't heard a Hawkwind song yet that engages me. More likely to go with Floyd or even TD/Klaus for this area. Symphonic ... Renaissance - Innocence Really!? I can think of a lot of Renaissance songs, but "Innocence"? Why? (I'll have to give it a closer listen later.) Zeuhl ... Magma - meh, no idea, pass No doubt in my mind: I've got "Hortz fur dëhn Stekëhn West" cued up for this one! |
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Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Raff
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 14:00 |
Babe Ruth can be a bit of an acquired taste on account of the singer, a woman by the name of Janita (Jenny) Haan. If you, like me, love powerful, gutsy female vocalists, you will probably love "The Mexican". If you, on the other hand, prefer your lady singers on the angelic side, you might want to give this one a pass.
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 14:24 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
Thanks, Dean! You honor me!
Dean wrote:
Symphonic ... Renaissance - Innocence Really!? I can think of a lot of Renaissance songs, but "Innocence"? Why? (I'll have to give it a closer listen later.)
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Avoiding the obvious choice of Kings and Queens really. ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) Nah, I just prefer Keith and Jane Relf's Renaissance over later incarnations of the band. But the album that Innocence comes from was the first full-blown symphonic album IMO, and the piano on that track is just sublime.
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verslibre
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Location: CA
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 16:51 |
Raff wrote:
Babe Ruth can be a bit of an acquired taste on account of the singer, a woman by the name of Janita (Jenny) Haan. If you, like me, love powerful, gutsy female vocalists, you will probably love "The Mexican". If you, on the other hand, prefer your lady singers on the angelic side, you might want to give this one a pass.
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Babe Ruth should pique the curiosity of many a listener. The third (eponymous) album is great, too.
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verslibre
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 16:52 |
Raff wrote:
Regarding prog metal, obviously the subgenre as we know it now did not exist in the Seventies, but some songs by iconic metal bands might be considered as examples of proto-progressive metal. Case in point: Judas Priest's "Victim of Changes" and "Beyond the Realms of Death".
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I would add "2112" by Rush and definitely "Stargazer" by Rainbow as sterling examples of templates for progressive metal.
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Raff
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 17:15 |
verslibre wrote:
Raff wrote:
Regarding prog metal, obviously the subgenre as we know it now did not exist in the Seventies, but some songs by iconic metal bands might be considered as examples of proto-progressive metal. Case in point: Judas Priest's "Victim of Changes" and "Beyond the Realms of Death".
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I would add "2112" by Rush and definitely "Stargazer" by Rainbow as sterling examples of templates for progressive metal. |
Indeed ![Clap Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) - though I would replace "2112" with the whole of A Farewell to Kings, which in my view is stronger and more cohesive in terms of composition.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13372
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 17:37 |
Stargazer was simply brilliant. Rising remains one of my favourite albums ever.
A tribute to RJD might well follow later.
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micky
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 17:50 |
perhaps something from High Tide. covers both bases... fundamental essential heavy prog... and proto progressive doom metal!
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 18:06 |
Cristi wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Actually, the prog community (whatever that means) has never reached a consensus about dilemma that neo prog is a genre which is exactly bounded by the time frame (eighties) or it is a style. If Neo Prog style didn't start with Merillion's Script for a Jester's Tear the album (1983), then One for the Vine is a great example of Neo Prog song recorded in seventies. In fact, BrufordFreak asks not for the champion bands of the PA genres, but for the songs that will best represent the genres at his radio show. So, for example, I could put on my list Genesis' The Knife as heavy prog song instead of Uriah Heep Salisbury and to not make a mistake at all; it's a same thing with One for the Vine as Neo Prog song as well. |
It sounds complicated, to me neo-prog started with Twelfth Night, Marillion and IQ. It makes sense, to make a distinction concerning the new wave of bands trying to play progressive rock, symphonic prog inspired, in the 80s.
As for bands belonging to god knows what genres, I've seen German band Jane being labeled as Krautrock. Is it a mistake? I wouldn't say that. Deep Purple is labeled as proto-prog, heavy prog, prog related, hard rock, heavy psych, heavy metal. Which is it? Or is it all of them? And the one I dislike the most is seeing Black Sabbath labeled as doom metal or god forbid stoner. And I could think of some more.
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Well, back then, nobody cares so much about labeling and it wa s served mostly to records dealers and rock journalists. At the present day, the multiplied tags often make a bigger mess than it facilitates the whole thing. Before internet and multiplied tags, it was known that e.g. Black Sabbath is a heavy rock band and there were no other labeling.
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 18:06 |
Nice list, else! Thanks!
someone_else wrote:
Avant/RIO................: Henry Cow - Beautiful as the Moon - Terrible as an Army with Banners Definitely a Cow song. Not sure which one. I'll try this.Crossover................: Supertramp - Fool's Overture Awesome choice! A "definitely, maybe." Canterbury...............: Khan - Space Shanty My favorite but not sure it's the most fully representative. This sub will be a tough one to choose one song for. Eclectic.................: Gnidrolog - Lady Lake Another awesome choice that I'd overlooked. I'll put into the pile and see how it compares. Electronic...............: Klaus Schulze - Mental Door Yes! Love this song! A definite possibility. Heavy Prog...............: Rush - Xanadu Great song but I'm hoping for something from a few years earlier. Jazz Rock................: Jazz Fusion..............: Krautrock................: Neo-medieval/Baroque Prog: Gentle Giant - Raconteur, Troubadour Perfect! Definitely near the top of the list! Neoclasssical Prog.......: Prog Folk................: Jethro Tull - Hunting Girl Hmm. Gonna have to give this one a listen. Not on my radar: don't really know it. Psychedelia..............: Pink Floyd - Interstellar Overdrive Yes! This may be a shoo-in. RPI......................: Space/Atmospheric........: Pink Floyd - Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun (Ummagumma or Pompeiï version) More like what I had in mind, too. It's on the list! Symphonic................: Genesis - Firth of Fifth Hard to argue against this one; Can't really go wrong with it. Zeuhl....................: Magma - Kobaïa Why this one? I like the more extreme dynamics of many other early Magma songs. I've never quite 'felt the love' for this album or Köhntarkösz.
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Thanks so much for your time and efforts! You definitely gave me several to consider that I'd overlooked! Awesome!
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Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 18:09 |
Definitely a few mentions here that are more in line with my thinking. Before Rush 'took over' the sub-genre there were proto-Rush bands, nest-ce pas?
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micky
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 18:13 |
those proto Rush bands were far more interesting IMO. Rush is popular yeah yeah yeah we all get that.. we all love the group to various degrees.. but heavy prog started with DP in the late 60's. It was around, even perfected well before Rush were known to anyone outside of their immediately family man...
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Sheavy
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Posted: March 17 2015 at 19:07 |
For Prog Electronic, if time is an issue try these. Not sure I would say any of them exactly epitomize PE like any of the longer songs, but they are killer tracks.
Klaus Schulze - Frank Herbert
Tangerine Dream - 3A.M. At The Border Of The Marsh From Okefenokee
Kraftwerk -Trans Europa Express
Zanov - Machine Desperation
Jean Michel-Jarre - Oxygene Part One
Ose - L'Aube Jumelle
Harmonia - Watussi
Vangelis - Pulsar
Conrad Schnitzler - Black Nails
Igor Wakhevitch - Twilight And Call Of The Ascending Spirit
Gave about ten more songs than you asked for and much more of a varied sound than you asked for.
Edited by Sheavy - March 17 2015 at 19:12
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