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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:02 |
bhikkhu wrote:
P.H.P. wrote:
Prog rock music has no limits, it is totally experimental, imaginative, inventive, intelligent, it certainly has a meaning, but through decades it HAS BEEN sort of delimited, it's not about how many prog rock characteristics a band could fill (if we let that be the guide of this site, tons of bands would be included day after day, don't you think?), it's something you just know when you got the necessary experience in prog rock, it's out of definitions of this kind or novelty tags, when it's prog it's certainly prog! end of the history, and about "progressive metal" area, I'm myself open-minded as we all should be, but the difference is to be effective and careful with prog, I'm no musical hater (as I feel some of you may be), I'm a music lover, I can appreciatte good efforts of music in almost every style, even the heaviers.But as the name of the site is "ProgArchives", let's focus in new or old prog rock acts to include here, forget how related a band is to prog, when it's simply not prog, it doesn't deserves to be here, there are probably tons of site covering that kind of bands out there, I would like this site could count with more mature rewievers, so it can be more objective and of course only focused on prog.Peace, and many thanks you all you who positively answered my post.
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Once again I will invite you (among others ) to explore the large database of prog bands we have here. Don't dismiss something on the surface. I can assure you that we have added many more full prog bands in recent months than proto/related. The Symphonic team has added at least 6 that I can think of off the top of my head. As Mike said, do your homework.
| From 2004 I've been exploring your large database, it's not about
adding loads of bands, it's about doing your work right, and my search
hasn't been superficial, I think I've done "my homework" good, that's why I'm surprised at finding bands like I'd mention.
And Mike can't tell me nothing really since he's guilty on opening and
really destroying the prog rock spectrum too much with bands like Blind
Guardian.
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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:16 |
Tony R wrote:
P.H.P. wrote:
Prog rock music has no limits, it is totally experimental, imaginative, inventive, intelligent, it certainly has a meaning, but through decades it HAS BEEN sort of delimited, it's not about how many prog rock characteristics a band could fill (if we let that be the guide of this site, tons of bands would be included day after day, don't you think?), it's something you just know when you got the necessary experience in prog rock, it's out of definitions of this kind or novelty tags, .
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What you say is simply not true of Prog Rock. You are describing progressive music, which is palpably not the same. The experience that you allude to tells us that Prog Rock was a time and a place and not necessarily a movement. You stated that "Prog rock music has no limits, it is totally experimental, imaginative, inventive, intelligent" but that is just a fanciful generalisation and exaggeration. Genesis and Yes "totally experimental"? I think not. Indeed they were, to devotees at least, "imaginative and inventive" and "intelligent" but these are ultimately not very useful terms for the basis of your argument. Radiohead and Tool are far more experimental and delimited than many of the so-called "Classic Prog Rock Bands". I have no love for either band but your argument is nonsensical and ill-informed, borne of petty snobbery rather than any real feel or "experience" of the genre. This site intends to be as inclusive as possible and we turn down many bands, to the fury and despair of their promoters. As my colleague "Easy Livin'" so eloquently stated in a previous post, if you want to use other sites that have a far narrower, and some might say "blinkered" view of the Prog Rock spectrum, then be our guest. 
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I think you're talking about something I did not say, I think you're thinking of avantguarde when I say "experimental", Prog rock by definition is experimental, because everything that is new and never done before is definitely experimental I will name only a few and you'll see: King Crimson, VDGG, Gentle Giant, ELP, Genesis, Yes, among many many others...no one did like them before, so consider that important fact before saying anything... ...and yes Radiohead and Tool could have some degree of experimental on their stuff, but since their music isn't really original, it's only a mix of things done before (alternative, pop, grunge, etc), they took no risk at doing that, prog rock did, so I don't honestly think Radiohead and Tool are "far more experimental than prog rock" I truly disagree with you in that one, I think here you are the ill-informed.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21820
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:40 |
P.H.P. wrote:
And Mike can't tell me nothing really since he's guilty on opening and
really destroying the prog rock spectrum too much with bands like Blind
Guardian. 
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I'll gladly plead guilty.  Sorry if you see this as destructive - how did the addition of Blind Guardian destroy anything in Prog Rock?
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:45 |
P.H.P. wrote:
Tony R wrote:
P.H.P. wrote:
Prog rock music has no limits, it is totally experimental, imaginative, inventive, intelligent, it certainly has a meaning, but through decades it HAS BEEN sort of delimited, it's not about how many prog rock characteristics a band could fill (if we let that be the guide of this site, tons of bands would be included day after day, don't you think?), it's something you just know when you got the necessary experience in prog rock, it's out of definitions of this kind or novelty tags, .
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What you say is simply not true of Prog Rock. You are describing progressive music, which is palpably not the same. The experience that you allude to tells us that Prog Rock was a time and a place and not necessarily a movement. You stated that "Prog rock music has no limits, it is totally experimental, imaginative, inventive, intelligent" but that is just a fanciful generalisation and exaggeration. Genesis and Yes "totally experimental"? I think not. Indeed they were, to devotees at least, "imaginative and inventive" and "intelligent" but these are ultimately not very useful terms for the basis of your argument. Radiohead and Tool are far more experimental and delimited than many of the so-called "Classic Prog Rock Bands". I have no love for either band but your argument is nonsensical and ill-informed, borne of petty snobbery rather than any real feel or "experience" of the genre. This site intends to be as inclusive as possible and we turn down many bands, to the fury and despair of their promoters. As my colleague "Easy Livin'" so eloquently stated in a previous post, if you want to use other sites that have a far narrower, and some might say "blinkered" view of the Prog Rock spectrum, then be our guest. 
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I think you're talking about something I did not say, I think you're thinking of avantguarde when I say "experimental", Prog rock by definition is experimental, because everything that is new and never done before is definitely experimental I will name only a few and you'll see: King Crimson, VDGG, Gentle Giant, ELP, Genesis, Yes, among many many others...no one did like them before, so consider that important fact before saying anything...
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Disingenuous post of the week award? Or just utter fanciful rubbish? One of them.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:56 |
Keep up the "destruction" Mike!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:00 |
P.H.P wrote:
And Mike can't tell me nothing really since he's guilty on opening and really destroying the prog rock spectrum too much with bands like Blind Guardian. 
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Now seriously,I may disagree with Mike some times, but the day you have done 1% of what he does for free in this site to keep prog and specially Prog Metal alive....then you can speak, before that, you better keep your mouth closed.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 02 2007 at 14:13
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21820
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:06 |
^ likewise ... you're an equally valiant Defender of Symphonic Prog!
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:10 |
Sound like a Samurai/Ninja manga!
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:14 |
Thanks Ivan. Couldn't have said it better myself.
So, what do you say we just ignore this guy, who's only reason for joining seems to be insulting us. Then we can go back to our destruction by adding more bands like Deluge Grander, Shadow Circus, Indukti, La Machera Di Cera, Nemo, and Frogg Cafe.
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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:18 |
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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:29 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
P.H.P wrote:
And Mike can't tell me nothing really since he's guilty on opening and really destroying the prog rock spectrum too much with bands like Blind Guardian. 
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Now seriously,I may disagree with Mike some times, but the day you have done 1% of what he does for free in this site to keep prog and specially Prog Metal alive....then you can speak, before that, you better keep your mouth closed.
Iván |
I don't have anything against the person of Mike since I don't know him, but I'm against the novelty fans appreciations here, who think they can define in their own way something that was sort of definided already, and then say that any metal or any band they like is prog, and like I said before, this is why: because any young person who enters this site will think he's listening
to "prog" only because he likes a few power, alternative or heavy metal
bands like Blind Guardian, Nightwish, Meshuggah or Tool, and that's
what I'm talking about, and want it or not "prog metal" is a very
discussible style, there are far too many bands on this site that only
are plain technical or just complex, and that isn't what prog is about.
Understand what I mean?, if you like prog and take it seriously like I do I'm sure you will understand.
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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:36 |
bhikkhu wrote:
Thanks Ivan. Couldn't have said it better myself.
So, what do you say we just ignore this guy, who's only reason for joining seems to be insulting us. Then we can go back to our destruction by adding more bands like Deluge Grander, Shadow Circus, Indukti, La Machera Di Cera, Nemo, and Frogg Cafe.
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It's not about ignoring, it's about facing, and most important I didn't join to insult you guys, I joined because I want to express what I find unfair here and if possible give you some help here, can't I do that?  ...and the bands you have named there are good prog inclusions, and certainly acceptable as prog, no one questioned that.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:48 |
You are completely ignorant of the music scene of the late 60's if you think that the prog bands were the only ones creating anything new. The whole of the rock music scene was undergoing big change and there was an explosion of new ideas and invention across the whole spectrum.Prog was just part of it.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21820
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:53 |
P.H.P. wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
P.H.P. wrote:
And Mike can't tell me nothing really since he's guilty on opening and
really destroying the prog rock spectrum too much with bands like Blind
Guardian. 
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I'll gladly plead guilty. Sorry if you see this as destructive - how did the addition of Blind Guardian destroy anything in Prog Rock?
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Well, because any young person who enters this site will think he's listening to "prog" only because he likes a few power, alternative or heavy metal bands like Blind Guardian, Nightwish, Meshuggah or Tool, and that's what I'm talking about, and want it or not "prog metal" is a very discussible style, there are far too many bands on this site that only are plain technical or just complex, and that isn't what prog is about. Understand what I mean?
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I understand perfectly. There's more to these bands than just power, alternative or heavy metal ... with the exception of Nightwish which I find rather bland - but hey, live and let live!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 14:54 |
P.H.P. wrote:
I don't have anything against the person of Mike since I don't know him, but I'm against the novelty fans appreciations here, who think they can define in their own way something that was sort of definided already, and then say that any metal or any band they like is prog, and like I said before, this is why:
because any young person who enters this site will think he's listening to "prog" only because he likes a few power, alternative or heavy metal bands like Blind Guardian, Nightwish, Meshuggah or Tool, and that's what I'm talking about, and want it or not "prog metal" is a very discussible style, there are far too many bands on this site that only are plain technical or just complex, and that isn't what prog is about. Understand what I mean?, if you like prog and take it seriously like I do I'm sure you will understand. 
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PHP, I usually disagree with Mike, Prog Metal is not my cup of tea and I'm one of the most stubborn purists of this site (Read my posts opposing to a lot of Prog Related additions).
I do believe there are a handful of bands that shouldn't be here, but at least the people who inducted them, waited months for their approval, collected the information, wrote a bio, downloaded in some cases 20 or 30 art covers, recollected all the info about albums that hardly appear in the web opr can be found ins such languages as Russian or Japanese that few of us understand, uploaded all this back to the site, etc...Are doing something for Prog, they sometimes may be wrong in their belief (I'd say in 99% of the cases they are right), but they deserve some recognition, because they are doing something.
Even when as i said I don't like Prog Metal (as a general rule), I would be an ignorant if i denied the Prog elements in Dream Theater (A band that I hate), Symphony X (Leaves me cold) or Pain of Salvation (I like that one)...but I have to leave my taste behind and accept this are Prog bands that deserve to be here.
It's easy to criticize what others do from the comfort of our houses, but it's hard to stay until 2:00 am almost every night after a hard day of work, leaving our families with less quality time only for love to Prog.
I believe that deserves recognition and Mike has done a lot, I will still disagree with him as I done before, but I would hardly believe he does anything for other reason than autentic love for Prog.
Thanks
Iván
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:16 |
P.H.P. wrote:
bhikkhu wrote:
Thanks Ivan. Couldn't have said it better myself.
So, what do you say we just ignore this guy, who's only reason for joining seems to be insulting us. Then we can go back to our destruction by adding more bands like Deluge Grander, Shadow Circus, Indukti, La Machera Di Cera, Nemo, and Frogg Cafe.
| It's not about ignoring, it's about facing, and most important I didn't join to insult you guys, I joined because I want to express what I find unfair here and if possible give you some help here, can't I do that? ...and the bands you have named there are good prog inclusions, and certainly acceptable as prog, no one questioned that.  |
Yes, but there are a few things that hurt your standing. Your very first post (ever) was a criticism. I also don't believe you see the whole picture. You are going on about a few dubious entries. I will not debate their merits, because they are far outweighed by what is inarguably prog. Some of these have gotten a lot of attention, and I don't particularly like that either. Especially when I am constantly working on artists that rarely get discussed. So, do I insult people because of it? No, I do something about it. I start threads about those lesser known artists, and encourage others to do so. You also can't understand what goes on in the inner-workings here. There is always work to do, and countless submissions to research. A very small percentage of these are like the bands you name. Most of the time the effort is put into gathering more information, and figuring out where best to place them. It's easy to denounce that which you know little about. It's harder to make a positive effort to understand.
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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:17 |
Tony R wrote:
You are completely ignorant of the music scene of the late 60's if you think that the prog bands were the only ones creating anything new. The whole of the rock music scene was undergoing big change and there was an explosion of new ideas and invention across the whole spectrum.Prog was just part of it.
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Hmm Tony R, stop the insults please you sound like a hater more than a Prog listener, I've been of course always aware of the late 60's scene, otherwise I wouldn't have said what I did say, like it or not Prog Rock was the peak of everything constructed there, and I like it, but it seems that you don't appreciate Prog that much, do you?
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11985
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:20 |
I'm not insulting you at all, unless you feel that having your pearls of wisdom challenged, analysed and refuted is insulting. You said your piece. I thought it was over-wrought and over-stated. You said some more and I thought you were wrong. I am still of that opinion. Your crass generalisations do not stand up to even the most casual investigation.
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:21 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 02 2007 at 15:28 |
P.H.P. wrote:
Hmm Tony R, stop the insults please you sound like a hater more than a Prog listener, I've been of course always aware of the late 60's scene, otherwise I wouldn't have said what I did say, like it or not Prog Rock was the peak of everything constructed there, and I like it, but it seems that you don't appreciate Prog that much, do you? 
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Now we have a couple of super villains:
MIKE THE PROG DESTROYER and his sidekick TONY THE PROG HATER 
Booooooh for you two 
Where are Batman & Robin or Harry Potter when you need them? Not even the Bumblebee Man?
....Ayayayay Chihuahua.....No me gusta!!!!!
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 02 2007 at 15:33
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