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The Pessimist View Drop Down
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2009 at 09:03
I can think of a few non-prog bands that fit that description, like Necrophagist, Cephalic Carnage, Spawn Of Possession, Nile (in a lot of the solos)... As for prog I can only think of two bands at the moment that use contrapuntalism in an effective manner, and they are Opeth (in the acoustic sections) and Unexpect.
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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2009 at 11:57
if you want counterpoint, go and listen to Peter Hammill's opera "The Fall of the House of Usher". There is counterpoint in abundance on it.


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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2009 at 12:34
I'll be learning counterpoint in my next year at the Conservatoire.

And I'm now studying the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue.


Edited by Ricochet - June 17 2009 at 12:34
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Points: 231 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 01:33
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

As for prog I can only think of two bands at the moment that use contrapuntalism in an effective manner, and they are Opeth (in the acoustic sections) and Unexpect.
 
Regarding counterpoint, I was refering to, specifically, canon and fugue. I have not heard those from Opeth (I have not heard Unexpect). Do you know of any prog bands, aside from ELP and Gentle Giant that have deliberately used canonic imitation and fugal structure?


Edited by meptune - June 18 2009 at 01:34


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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 02:25
^I have not heard any examples of counterpoint in Opeth either - their acoustic sections tend to be merely 2 or 3 chord riff patterns that are picked and roughly harmonised with parallel movement (predictable 3rds, 6ths, etc - not true counterpoint). I shall have to check out Unexpect - that was unexpected... Embarrassed

As The Pessimist says, Gentle Giant and ELP are among the very few prog bands that have produced counterpoint of any note.

Shub Niggurath are another band who wrote "true" counterpoint, and are well worth checking out from a technical point of view, as they incorporated many classical writing styles in their music - including serialism.

I tend to listen to The Enid more for pleasure than analysis, but I would imagine that they produced a fair amount too.

Queen produced some cool counterpoint with the frequent use of the echo machine in their early days, and Marillion's early work features multi-layered melodies which are contrapuntal. I also noticed bits and pieces in Clouds' music.


Counterpoint isn't necessarily canon and fugue - it's simply simultaneous independent melody lines. Canon, fugue and round are simply types of contrapuntal writing in which all voices produce the same melody, with the exception of fugue, in which the different voices may develop in different directions.

"Independent" is not a fantastic word, as most counterpoint is entirely dependent on the underlying harmonic progressions - and such musical styles as the round (where a melody is sung, and then the exact same melody sung a few bars later by a different voice - e.g. "Sumer Is I-Cumen In") are dependent on the melody being exactly the same and harmonically coherent at the same time.

The most interesting forms of counterpoint to me are the fugue (especially multi-subject fugues) and the more free-form, where each part constitues a strong melody and not a mere supporting role dominated by the harmonic structure. 

This is one reason I enjoy early Marillion so much. 

The main reason is because I like the music, of course - what they did is hardly at Bach's level Wink


There is contrpuntal writing in most of the "better" prog - it's part of what gives it the proggy character. You'll hear it in the music of Genesis, Tull, Crimson and Yes among others - and end up hearing it in almost everything. 

The "dividing line" is the difference between simple parallel harmonisation combined with co-incidental tunefulness in parts, and truly "independent" melody lines.


Edited by Certif1ed - June 18 2009 at 02:27
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meptune View Drop Down
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Points: 231 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 02:46
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Canon, fugue and round are simply types of contrapuntal writing in which all voices produce the same melody, with the exception of fugue, in which the different voices may develop in different directions.
 
Well, acutally no. A canon CAN develop "in different directions" in that the secondary voice(s) can be developed in inversion, retrograde, augmentation, diminution, modulation or any combinations thereof. It is, however, always said to be derived from the primary voice. A fugue, on the other hand, employs the same variations but introduces secondary melodic material as well as sequencing and stretto. All of this is ultimately beside the point, however, because I was not seeking a discussion of canonic imitation per se'. In my post I specifically asked for examples of prog rock outside of ELP and Gentle Giant that diliberately use canon and fugue.


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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:03
I think I've heard some canon-esque counterpoint in some of Uncle Frank's work, and although a jazz artist, Pat Metheny uses it a little bit as well. But seriously, you've got me racking my brains on this one.
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Points: 18626 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:26
Hi,
 
NEVER ...
 
I only listen to his relation PDQ Bach ...
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:35
Originally posted by meptune meptune wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Canon, fugue and round are simply types of contrapuntal writing in which all voices produce the same melody, with the exception of fugue, in which the different voices may develop in different directions.
 
Well, acutally no. A canon CAN develop "in different directions" in that the secondary voice(s) can be developed in inversion, retrograde, augmentation, diminution, modulation or any combinations thereof. It is, however, always said to be derived from the primary voice. A fugue, on the other hand, employs the same variations but introduces secondary melodic material as well as sequencing and stretto. All of this is ultimately beside the point, however, because I was not seeking a discussion of canonic imitation per se'. In my post I specifically asked for examples of prog rock outside of ELP and Gentle Giant that diliberately use canon and fugue.

What I gave is the essential difference between canon and fugue - yes, you are correct about the various permutations, and that is the big difference between canon and round. I was just trying to keep it simple and not go into technical details.

I didn't see your original post, because it's on the previous page, but to re-iterate what I said above, there probably examples in The Enid's music, and definitely some in Shub-Niggurath's.
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:47
You guys make me want to study....for a moment.
 
I'm not trained enough to tell canon from fugue but I do understand what counterpoint is and multiple interweaving lines (about the best I can do to describe what I like) is a major turnon when listening to music.
 
Hey baby, you like counterpoint?
 
Do I ever.
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 11:57
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
NEVER ...
 
I only listen to his relation PDQ Bach ...


What?
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Points: 18626 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:01
Originally posted by Ricochet Ricochet wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
NEVER ...
I only listen to his relation PDQ Bach ...


What?
 
Best prog classics ever done and you have never heard it?
 
NP: Seasonings 1/2 tsp Oratorio
 
Well ... you will never know now, will you ...
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Points: 18626 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:04
Hi,
 
Actually I look at Bach as the pre-cursor to the modern computerized music ... that is mechanical and rep[etitive at times ... sometimes it lacks feeling and that may be because of all the math that goes behind making all that code!
 
It's his fault that the computerized and digital stuff is not as good as the analogue ... for a few more years!
 
And of course ... the most famous adage of all ... not too many notes!
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 mechanical and repetitive at times


Bach's music is only those two things if the player sucks balls. Bach is a lot of things, but it sure as hell ain't repetitive OR mechanical.
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:35
I honestly don't think I've ever though "Too many notes" in relation to Bach.
 
The power of the music is certainly more subtle than Beethoven. Mechanical....hmmm.....maybe you're listening to something different than I am.
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:35
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
Actually I look at Bach as the pre-cursor to the modern computerized music ... that is mechanical and rep[etitive at times ... sometimes it lacks feeling and that may be because of all the math that goes behind making all that code!
 
It's his fault that the computerized and digital stuff is not as good as the analogue ... for a few more years!
 
And of course ... the most famous adage of all ... not too many notes!


You've been listening to another Bach. The J.S.Bach history knows doesn't fall into anything you've described above.

Or maybe you're attention has been drawn too much by Carlos Wendy, who indeed transposed Bach's music in a totally tasteless, mechanical electronic way.

Bach's music isn't "computerized", it's not repetitive, he's in fact rejected some genres like the variations (which thematically repeat an initial melody), because they limited his compositional fantasy.






Edited by Ricochet - June 18 2009 at 14:37
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Points: 18626 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 14:58
Hi,
 
For the record I thought that W. Carlos stunk ... I guess after all these years of listening to music, I will have to check out Keith Jarrett doing Bach ... maybe I did miss something! I actually thought that Kubrick's handling of it was kinda funny ..  he was doing a 2 for one ... and while I rarely associate music with any specific human act, the one thing I got out of it is how ... some people mis-use music ... but this is similar if you ever see Isaac Stern goes to China ... a fabulous film ... and some young japanese girl calls Mozart's music ... "very industrial" ... which you and I would probably sneer at ... but you know what? There is a bit of that in it ... even though I don't like the term and it comes across as anti-western'ism.
 
I don't dislike Bach ... but obviously the humor went right over .... like an airplane that landed upside down ... poor Syd ... he would not survive too long in this board! You might want to see the film "Tous Les Matins Du Monde" ... just after Bach ... in the music history department.
 
But you need to hear PDQ Bach ... and if you haven't ... the shame! the Shame!
 
 
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 15:57
Add Loussier to Jarrett (in fact above him) in the jazz-interpreting of Bach section.

I didn't imply you don't like Bach (well, from your first post it's obvious you don't) or that you have to, I just said your description of his music was awkward. The feeling that he's repetitive is just an illusion of the bit more strict forms that are at the base of the genres.

(PDQ noted)
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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 17:56
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
For the record I thought that W. Carlos stunk ... I guess after all these years of listening to music, I will have to check out Keith Jarrett doing Bach ... maybe I did miss something! I actually thought that Kubrick's handling of it was kinda funny ..  he was doing a 2 for one ... and while I rarely associate music with any specific human act, the one thing I got out of it is how ... some people mis-use music ... but this is similar if you ever see Isaac Stern goes to China ... a fabulous film ... and some young japanese girl calls Mozart's music ... "very industrial" ... which you and I would probably sneer at ... but you know what? There is a bit of that in it ... even though I don't like the term and it comes across as anti-western'ism.
 
I don't dislike Bach ... but obviously the humor went right over .... like an airplane that landed upside down ... poor Syd ... he would not survive too long in this board! You might want to see the film "Tous Les Matins Du Monde" ... just after Bach ... in the music history department.
 
But you need to hear PDQ Bach ... and if you haven't ... the shame! the Shame!
 
 

Listen to Glenn Gould playing Bach; I bet my head you will repent on your knees that you called him "mechanical".


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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2009 at 18:56
Bach has never done much for me either, even with Glenn Gould. I can appreciate the complexity of the patterns, but with a few exceptions I don't get any emotion. It's the same with Mozart a lot of the time, and when he does write something I find deeply emotional, he tends to pound the theme into the ground.
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