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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2012 at 17:34
 ^ Yeah I don't buy that reasoning either--   if true, terms as 'rock & roll', 'punk', or 'progressive rock' would have died out a long time ago.   We have to maintain some measure of linguistic continuity or no one will know what anyone else is talking about.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2012 at 17:36
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I never used it in the seventies. Never knew anyone who did. I don't doubt bit was out there  but that sort of music had many descriptions at the time.

Yeah, that's my recollection as well!  Yes, ELP and others were labeled with a variety of terms = art rock, theater rock, classical rock, etc., but never "progressive rock" or "prog." 

Honestly, I don't think I heard the term "prog" until well after Y2K!   Brand X, Mahavishnu Orchestra etc. were always "jazz rock" or "fusion" from everything I saw/read. 

At a Brand X gig about 1980, I met one of the roadies (a Brit, I'm a Yank) and he asked me "So, are you Yanks really into jazz-rock then?"  Good enough for me.  

Many of the old artists object to the term "prog," Peter Banks coming to mind.  He said he'd prefer if the genre were called "Dave" or anything else besides "prog."  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2012 at 17:41

I would have hoped that we'd moved past the days of artists putting as much distance between themselves and the word "Prog", but even SWilson does it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2012 at 18:46
 ^ agreed, though I know the feeling--  there's something automatic about a musician denying his roots

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2012 at 19:20
Somewhere I read, I think, that one of SW early influences was Donna Summer? Kinda makes sense as she did some progressive pop/disco stuff that kept her from the mainstream stuff at times
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And early Porcupine Tree was pretty weird......I thought. I agree, denying his roots is a tad off-base.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2012 at 19:58
I remember the term "progressive music" being used throughout the seventies. And groups dubbed Symphonic Prog that quoted directly from classical music like ELP and Triumvirat were called "Classical Rock". And i also remember the term "Art Rock" used as far back as the seventies.
           I never came across the term "prog" until the 1990s for some reason.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2012 at 20:17
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

I read the term for the first time in 1973, in an article about the Virgin label, which had just been launched in those days and focused on progressive rock.

You are one old Turkey dude!

Wish I was around when prog came to be...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2012 at 14:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Ermm
 
*waits for someone to say Fripp overheard Billy Ritchie saying it in the Marquee in 1956*
 
Previously you posted an advert for a progressive music concert, somewhere, that also included the Edgar Broughton Band ... I think that one stated "progressive" and not "prog rock" which I had never heard up until the 90's when some of the metal stuff really took off.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2012 at 14:47
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Ermm
 
*waits for someone to say Fripp overheard Billy Ritchie saying it in the Marquee in 1956*
 
Previously you posted an advert for a progressive music concert, somewhere, that also included the Edgar Broughton Band ... I think that one stated "progressive" and not "prog rock" which I had never heard up until the 90's when some of the metal stuff really took off.
Yeah, we've been through that - the name "Prog Rock" didn't arrive in all parts of the world at the same time. In the county town of Bedford in Bedfordsire, England in 1970 we called it Prog Rock - it took 20 years for the rest of the world to catch up. Apparently that's my fault, but it's no big deal.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2012 at 21:22
A very illuminating discussion indeed. Until last year I hadn't been aware of such category as "prog". For  literally decades I had thought that early Genesis and Yes, much of Jethro Tull and post-Barrett PF were straddling the genres of symphonic- and art-rock (along, BTW, with the likes of Queen, select Sting and late Beatles), Rush was for all intents and purposes hard rock, while KC and ELP were listed under the tale-telling category of "musical sadism". Jazz-rock (fusion) had always been that, though. 

Having spent some time studying Progarchives, I can say will never be able to figure out how HUNDREDS of what I'd describe as bland pop- and ambient bands have made it into the "prog(ressive rock)" category :) 

Edited by Argonaught - September 16 2012 at 21:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2012 at 08:18
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

A very illuminating discussion indeed.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2012 at 02:27
Nice inputs.
I definitely learnt a lot.
Thanks to the users for some useful info!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2012 at 12:40
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Yeah, we've been through that - the name "Prog Rock" didn't arrive in all parts of the world at the same time. In the county town of Bedford in Bedfordsire, England in 1970 we called it Prog Rock - it took 20 years for the rest of the world to catch up. Apparently that's my fault, but it's no big deal.
 
Love it ... absolutely love it!
 
It's quite alright with me! The English did not discover the world ... they made sure the world knew the English were the first to make sure everyone around the woprld knew they existed! ... and that includes progressive and prog-rock!
 
In the end, the English did what Americans can't do and won't do because of the "fame game" ... you had magazines that talked about the music! Here we didn't, and it all died with Mr. Graham and his Fillmore's! He became a jerk looking for fame and spending money on the Rolling Stones, but his 10 years in the boondocks is one of the finest histories of music that no one will EVER duplicate, or write, or mention anywhere! It was in his clubs, and the likes of UFO over there, that this whole thing got started, although it's hard for you and I not to include a Miles and his well known 30 minute jaunts every night ... most of which are sill not shared with the public!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 07:56
I remember to have heard in the 70s things like "psychedelic pop", "symphonic rock" and so on. I think the first time I've heard the word "progressive" applied to the Renaissance was in 1995. Before for me that word was referred to Stan Kenton and his progressive jazz.

In my country PFM and Banco signed a contract with Virgin in 1973 if I'm not wrong, together with Oldfield and Henry Cow.

I don't think it really matters. Giving something a name doesn't mean knowing it. In science as in life.

I was showing to a friend which kind of music and bands I like and he told me, "that's progressive".
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2012 at 05:55
I remember usng the term 'progressive', in the early seventies, in the context of 'heavy and progressive'. I don't recall the term 'prog rock' or 'prog'. I know it is heresy here, but I hate the term 'prog', as well as 'heavy metal'.

On the subject of Friars Aylesbury,  I had a friend whose band was managed by Dave Stopps and he described them as being like Captain Beefheart - so he did have a thing about labels at a time when few others bothered (albeit comparing against another band, rather than applying a genre). I do not recall him using the word 'prog', but that does not mean he never used the term.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2012 at 23:42
I vaguely remember the term, Progressive Rock, being used in the seventies, although I was on the younger side. 'Progressive Rock' was well received in Buffalo, NY where I grew up. The name was definitely used when I was in highschool in the early eighties when I desperately went through Rolling Stone reviews to find music I might like. I'm surprised others hadn't heard the term 'progressive rock' way back. I appreciate the early archival evidence a few have brought out. Nevertheless, I must say that I had never heard Frank Zappa and Captain Beefhart referred to as progressive. US west coast was always Art Rock. On the other hand, I never heard of British symphonic progressive rock being referred to as 'Art Rock'. I've heard both groups commonly referred to as 'Avant Garde'. I never heard the term 'Prog' as a shortened form of 'Progressive' until I joined ProgArchives.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2012 at 02:16
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

A very illuminating discussion indeed.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2012 at 02:41
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

I vaguely remember the term, Progressive Rock, being used in the seventies, although I was on the younger side. 'Progressive Rock' was well received in Buffalo, NY where I grew up. The name was definitely used when I was in highschool in the early eighties when I desperately went through Rolling Stone reviews to find music I might like. I'm surprised others hadn't heard the term 'progressive rock' way back. I appreciate the early archival evidence a few have brought out. Nevertheless, I must say that I had never heard Frank Zappa and Captain Beefhart referred to as progressive. US west coast was always Art Rock. On the other hand, I never heard of British symphonic progressive rock being referred to as 'Art Rock'. I've heard both groups commonly referred to as 'Avant Garde'. I never heard the term 'Prog' as a shortened form of 'Progressive' until I joined ProgArchives.
Shortening of words is a very English thing to do (and for once I mean English and not British, though the Scots also shorten and abbreviate words in common parlance), in regular speech it would have been unusual for teens (especially in schools) to have used 3 syllable words when a 1 or 2 syllable "slang" word would have been easier: soccer for association football, rugger for rugby football, rec for recreational sportsground, chippie for fish and chip shop, glam for glamorous, psyche for psychedelic, r'n'b for rhythm and blues (old skool), chopper for helicopter, plane for aeroplane, mag for magazine, etc. etc. It is what teenagers do - text-speak isn't new, it's a variation on what we've always done. Therefore the shortening of Progressive to Prog would have happened naturally and very quickly after the term Progressive Rock appeared, and it happened in colloquial speech before it entered into the written word.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2012 at 11:33
Originally posted by pkos76 pkos76 wrote:

hello i want to know when the term progressive rock came out.as i understand the term did not exist at the glory days of the genre in the early seventies.

The term 'progressive rock' was in common use in the early 1970s and was even used in the late 1960s. A few excerpts from articles in the Press of those days should be sufficient proof:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Yardbirds: Only Jimmy Left To Form The New Yardbirds
Chris Welch, Melody Maker, October 12, 1968

     Whatever happened to the Yardbirds? One of the great mysteries of our time, ranking with the Devil's footprints, the Marie Celeste and the Five Penny Post, is the disappearance of a group once hailed as the most progressive in Britain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
New Musical Express, 26 October 1968
LESS COMPLEX, MORE COMMERCIAL MOODIES
Moody Blues: Ride My See-Saw (Deram).

     Progression, experimentation, inventiveness - these are qualities that we've come to associate with the Moody Blues. Indeed, some of their material has been so far out that it scarecely comes within the bounds of pop music. But their new disc is much less complex and more obviously commercial.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
New Musical Express, March 28 1970

     Reviews of Yes concerts nearly always include phrases like "vastly improving" and "great potential" but they haven't yet achieved the heights of Blodwyn Pig and King Crimson who emerged around the same time and have gone on to establish themselves as top names.
     Perhaps the reason is because Yes haven't landed definitely in the so called progressive bag with all the attendant hype that can bring. Lead singer Jon Anderson says "We're not a blues group, not a jazz group, just a pop group. We do popular numbers that we hope people will like. "We can play underground, blues and pop venues and be accepted. We have been classed as a progressive group, but this isn't how we see ourselves. We just like to arrange things to reach a climax in the music.
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Yes: Queen Elizabeth Hall, London
Mark Williams, International Times, 9 April 1970

     IT HAS BEEN many months since I've seen YES and the consequent starvation of tight British progressive rock music par excellence left me eagerly awaiting the start of their first solo concert.
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New Musical Express, April 25, 1970
TYA PLAN 33 SPEED ON 7 MIN SINGLE
says Richard Green

     Heated arguments are constantly revolving around and developing out of my contention and, indeed argument, that Ten Years After are one of the country's biggest progressive groups. "Yeah? What about Jethro and Fleetwood?" That's all I hear. But then, I try to reason that those groups issue singles all the time, TYA don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
New Musical Express, January 1, 1972
UFO: 1972 SHOULD BE YEAR THEY BREAK BRITISH MARKET

     Chances are you've never heard of UFO so it might come as a surprise revelation that they've sold over a million singles, nearly half-a-million albums, have an American contract with Tamla Motown and this month played to 23,000 people on one Japanese gig. What's more, they're British!
     For UFO (Unidentified Flying Object) perhaps we should substitute UPG (Unidentified Pop Group). In any case this talented London foursome started out under the unlikely nomenclature of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly before their record company boss thought up the present appendage. Still, even Creedence were once known as the Golliwogs!
     Why then the lack of acceptance at home "I don't know. Perhaps it's because the public has become a little tired of progressive rock groups and we're a progressive rock group. But we do avoid the usual cliches and try to give the public something more than just freaky sounds." said vocalist Phil Mogg, who works himself to a frazzle on-stage in true Arthur Brown/Lord Sutch/Screamin' Jay Hawkins manner.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emerson Lake And Palmer: Super-Group Of The Seventies!
Keith Altham, Petticoat, 4 November 1972

     EMERSON LAKE and Palmer may not be three names which are immediately known to you but to millions of progressive rock music fans across the World they are the only group. Better musicians than the Beatles, more exciting than the Rolling Stones and with a super-keyboard player able to leap tall organs at a single bound!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Page 28 MELODY MAKER July 28, 1973
Standing up for the Queen

     Brian and Freddie are the main songwriters, but they write individually. Mercury has a tendency to fantasise melodic and is more down to earth. Their first album, "Queen," is a series of amaziningly different songs, from faster-than-fast rockers to soft ballads. Traces of Yes and Black Sabbath can also be found, but structurally it all seems to sound original.
     A single, "Keep Yourself Alive," has also been released in hopes of giving the band some early chart success. Like the album, it's commercial in a progressive kind of way. Spaced between chunky verses, the group have incorporated a dum solo (with effects) and a tasty guitar solo which has an interesting synthesizer effect. Brian insists he doesn't use one though.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greenslade: Greenslade Warming Up
Chris Welch, Melody Maker, 16November 1974

     THERE'S DEVIL'S work afoot in the world of rock (and indeed roll). Wot wiv the price of petrol and motorway chips it's a wonder there are any progressive rock bands left on the road who can't live off their record royalties. On top of that musicians have to put up with jibes (and in many cases, gibes) of the "techno-flash" variety from supporters of the popular antimusic front.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Page 47 New York Times August 7, 1977
Yes, rock Band, Affirms Fusion

     Yes, the British rock quintet that gave the first of three sold-out performances Firday night at Madison Square Garden, deals in a kind of rock toward which this listender is normally indifferent or even antipathetic. That is the fantasy-laden, over-busy, semi-jazzish sort of artsy progressive rock that was especially popular in Britain in the early 1970's, when Yes first became massively successful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2012 at 12:08
Originally posted by Fitzcarraldo Fitzcarraldo wrote:

The term 'progressive rock' was in common use in the early 1970s and was even used in the late 1960s. A few excerpts from articles in the Press of those days should be sufficient proof:
...
 
The "context" that it was used for, however, was quite different than the way we discuss things today -- for my tastes anyway.
 
In those days, it was OK to do something different and some of it was considered "progressive" or "art rock" or whatever else, because it did not fit the top ten pop thing ... and definitly did not fit the AM radio in America, because those cuts were too long! And this was one of the things that both the Beatles and Rolling Stones had a real hard time getting around, and finally did ... getting past that radio "law".
 
In America (can't speak for England), it was the beginning of FM radio (actually started in 1923!) but never took to the "stereo" until the late 60's, and at that time it was an experimental format that most radio morons and fat cats, did not believe that would ever reach the fame and fortune that it did. Are you surprised? ... go look at the 10 worst business decisions ever made!!!!!! Beatles and Rolling Stones, and the words used were insults ... typical fat cat rich fart insulting their children as stupid!  BUT, it would not be too far off to state that what defined this music better than anything else out there was ... STEREO ... because the regular radio was NOT, and the fidelity simply was not there! As the Beatles, the Stones and others got better, and the music improved, the radio process was not helping show the band's in their best light! FM radio in America WAS the answer!
 
Progressive, in America, as a term, did not take. I surmise that it didn't because this country is 10 Englands and then some! NY had its own term, and it was centered around Andy Warhol. SF had its own centered around the Fillmore. LA had its own but it was controlled by the movie studios, the folks of which also owned the music clubs. Later the likes of Adler and such ripped off various productions so they could become millionaires ripping off the musicians in the "greed is good" generation! No secret there, and that guy with the balls over there did the same thing and still owes Gong, Ash Ra, Tangerine Dream and many others some money for steaking sales' commissions.
 
Today, the term is meaningless. The definition is screwed up, and while we need it, the definition is intentionally only open to what happened in one location, not the world over and the tendency is for folks to think that the rest of the world was not "progressive" which is out of line and ignorant in the very least. So it's ok for one group in England to quote this writer and be called progressive, but not Laurie Anderson using Burroughs live on stage and creating music with his words! ... see the weirdness and the hippocrisy? ... it becomes favoritism and fan'aticism!
 
This is the reason why I request, and have done so many times, a more "clear and concise" description, so we can better evaluate music. We can not help bring it back to a few musical ideas and notations ... we do that about Baroque, Romantic, and what not ... but it is defined by ITS TIME AND PLACE ... which our work is avoiding doing ... because many of us knew London, but never heard LA, or knew LA and never heard Tokyo, and so on!
 
But yes ... we do need the designation and it was around way before ... in many different forms. Specially folk music, btw, which never gets the credit for its very obvious healthy dis-respect for convention and definition!


Edited by moshkito - September 25 2012 at 12:39
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