Prog bands influenced by The Beach Boys' SMiLE

SteveG wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: ^ so you retract the description of 1920's barbershop harmonies right? One man's psychedelic barber shop quartet could be another's opera. It's totally subjective, like most things in music.

I note you added the psychedelic qualifier to your original post. That explains why Schoenberg is often chided for his formulaic broadway musicals. Although the harmonies deployed by Brain Wilson on something like In My Room and Wonderful are clearly inspired by barbershop quartets and are commensurately and conventionally 'consonant', they certainly differ from the sort of harmonic conventions deployed by barbershop music. Why are 'barbershop harmonies' being inferred as somehow disparaging when the only point being made is that some of the Beach Boys music was progressive and innovative in intent and execution? You can respect the past without being curtailed by it. If someone confuses barbershop music with an opera they clearly wouldn't have the wherewithal to find a beach, a shop or a barber for want of trying....(and thus would let their hair grow long like some sort of clueless hippy)


Edited by ExittheLemming - June 18 2014 at 09:12

The idea of borrowing from other styles of music and adding those reflections to your own is humble and respectful to the person who created it long before your birth...if you have something very important to offer. Some composers desire to make their music public for the importance of change to music in society. Many of George Martin's suggestions to The Beatles regarding instrumentation and unorthodox recording methods caused change in the industry and band's were suddenly or quickly changing the way they did things in the recording studio.

Atavachron wrote: SteveG wrote:   I do indeed know the context of Hendrix's statement and it was as I have stated. The point of my post was to demonstrate the quickly changing musical trends as well as social and cultural back drops by which music is greatly judged. The Beach Boys never had the same critical acclaim that the Beatles enjoyed or were the media darlings that the Beatles were. Furthermore, they were not taken seriously within the newly established counter culture and were quickly dismissed as unhip musical relics. All these factors combined with the fact that the music of Smile in any of it's released forms remains critically subpar to that of Pet Sounds is the basis for my opinion. Bullsh*t--   I'd bet any amount of money that is not how Hendrix meant it, and I put the burden on you, sir, to show otherwise.   Until then, Jimi will be rolling over until this slander is corrected.   Around the time he died Hendrix, according to him and others, intended to move in a direction closer to what the BBs had been doing (art-rock), and away from his acid-blues jam music.   "The Beach Boys never had the same critical acclaim as the Beatles" ?   Who's acclaim do you speak of?   Many critics, if that's who you mean, didn't like the Beatles any more than the Beach Boys.And one more thing;  "The music of Smile in any of its released forms remains critically subpar to that of Pet Sounds is the basis for my opinion."    Now I know you're talking out of your ass:  The music on SS subpar to Pet Sounds ?     It seems that you're making most of this up<span style="font-weight: bold;">-- </span> anyone with enough listening experience and an appreciation of ambitious music could tell Pet Sounds was a dull pop venture, and that Smile was not.

If Hendrix is spinning in his grave, it's because of the all the early recording contracts he signed and got sued for!    Back to the topic. You asserted that Smile in it's conceived form would have reviled St. Pepper's by the Beatles had it been completed and released. I disagreed with your assertion and put forth an argument that was not overly critical to the work or blatantly derisive. I feel your responses to be, frankly, overly defensive and that you have taken my opinions too personally. So, any discussions by me such as to criticism in music being a norm would be nothing more than a waste of time. However, being that you do take this personally, perhaps that's the level I can reach you at. I have many years of experience in recording rock and pop music so perhaps this can be a help. The idea of championing a particular album that personally moves you, like Smile, to be equal to Sgt. Pepper's or better than Pet Sounds  when most other people do not, to the point of stress, is akin to putting yourself in heaven and hell at the same time. I know. I used to do it myself. So please take my advise, if a particular piece of music moves you, just be happy for the fact that it exists for you. Imagine if it did not? Not all people act the same, react the same or think the same. Why should they all experience music the same way? I hope you take this posting in the spirit that it was intended.

Edited by SteveG - June 18 2014 at 16:14

ExittheLemming wrote: SteveG wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: ^ so you retract the description of 1920's barbershop harmonies right? One man's psychedelic barber shop quartet could be another's opera. It's totally subjective, like most things in music. I note you added the psychedelic qualifier to your original post. That explains why Schoenberg is often chided for his formulaic broadway musicals. Although the harmonies deployed by Brain Wilson on something like In My Room and Wonderful are clearly inspired by barbershop quartets and are commensurately and conventionally 'consonant', they certainly differ from the sort of harmonic conventions deployed by barbershop music. Why are 'barbershop harmonies' being inferred as somehow disparaging when the only point being made is that some of the Beach Boys music was progressive and innovative in intent and execution? You can respect the past without being curtailed by it. If someone confuses barbershop music with an opera they clearly wouldn't have the wherewithal to find a beach, a shop or a barber for want of trying....(and thus would let their hair grow long like some sort of clueless hippy)

I had to bail immediately after making that post so I had no time to clarify. (Wife is very ill). But at least someone was smart enough to consider the source of the post and not just it's content for a change!    And I'm sorry I left you hanging with that one, Dean.


Edited by SteveG - June 18 2014 at 16:38

Dean wrote: Sure, you can listen to the recent issues of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE and The Smile Sessions (I have both) and appraise them for what they are, but that is not what this thread is discussing.

If you mean the OP wanted to discuss Smile's impact on prog artists and other bands that sound similar to the record, that's a very short list, my friend (or a very long one).   I don't see why we cannot further discuss the music itself ~ in any version; outtakes, demos, the whole venture was unfinished by its very nature ~ and the quiet impact it may have had on anyone wanting to make an original rock recording.   A lot of prog and rock fans don't even know what the hell we're talking about, and that's a shame.






Edited by Atavachron - June 18 2014 at 18:51

A big hug to you.

The Beach Boys brought new ideas to Rock music starting with Pet Sounds and ending for me personally with Holland. The song "Sail On Sailor" is just too close to sounding like a 10CC song regarding just about every musical observation a person can discover. Brian Wilson had a beautiful ability to combine musical elements that influenced progressive composers. These so called Progressive Rock composers were simply going for the science of Brian Wilson's ideas and hardly ever desiring to sound like him. Just the ideas were focused upon and not the emulation of the artist and those ideas were applied to Prog. Blue Oyster Cult took on the obvious role in the vocal department. On the Spectres album ...the influence of The Beach Boys vocal harmony style is obvious. Even a simple lead vocal in "I Love the Night" ..comes across in the vocal style of Mike Love during the late 60's.                ac .e

TODDLER wrote: The Beach Boys brought new ideas to Rock music starting with Pet Sounds and ending for me personally with Holland. The song "Sail On Sailor" is just too close to sounding like a 10CC song regarding just about every musical observation a person can discover. Brian Wilson had a beautiful ability to combine musical elements that influenced progressive composers. These so called Progressive Rock composers were simply going for the science of Brian Wilson's ideas and hardly ever desiring to sound like him. Just the ideas were focused upon and not the emulation of the artist and those ideas were applied to Prog. Blue Oyster Cult took on the obvious role in the vocal department. On the Spectres album ...the influence of The Beach Boys vocal harmony style is obvious. Even a simple lead vocal in "I Love the Night" ..comes across in the vocal style of Mike Love during the late 60's.                ac .e

I have to agree that multi part harmonies aboud in music but it could be argued that their origins preceeded the BB with the 50's vocals acts and particularly with The Four Freshmen that Brian Wilson credits for influencing him. Music influences run deep.


Edited by SteveG - June 19 2014 at 11:29

TODDLER wrote: SteveG wrote: TODDLER wrote: The Beach Boys brought new ideas to Rock music starting with Pet Sounds and ending for me personally with Holland. The song "Sail On Sailor" is just too close to sounding like a 10CC song regarding just about every musical observation a person can discover. Brian Wilson had a beautiful ability to combine musical elements that influenced progressive composers. These so called Progressive Rock composers were simply going for the science of Brian Wilson's ideas and hardly ever desiring to sound like him. Just the ideas were focused upon and not the emulation of the artist and those ideas were applied to Prog. Blue Oyster Cult took on the obvious role in the vocal department. On the Spectres album ...the influence of The Beach Boys vocal harmony style is obvious. Even a simple lead vocal in "I Love the Night" ..comes across in the vocal style of Mike Love during the late 60's.                ac<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> .e</span> I have to agree that multi part harmonies aboud in music but it could be argued that their origins preceeded the BB with the 50's vocals acts and particularly with The Four Freshmen that Brian Wilson credits for influencing him. Music influences run deep.                    Exactly...and they were a huge influence on The Beach Boys style. In the late 60's they were experimenting with chants. At times..their voices would be running through a phase shifter. They were a bit more sophisticated in diversity within the vocal department than The Beatles. When they chant in sections of Smile, its truly involved and creates a bizzare vibe. They may have been the first Rock band to experiment with vocals, using those unorthodox recording methods it perhaps The Beatles and George .The first creations which were masterpieces, were created through experimentation.

And I would have to say that it's experimentation that draws us all together in this forum regardless of different musical tastes. After all, without getting too deep, isn't it one the most defining characteristics of Prog? it's what makes so many of these different genres so fascinating to me.

SteveG wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: SteveG wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: ^ so you retract the description of 1920's barbershop harmonies right? One man's psychedelic barber shop quartet could be another's opera. It's totally subjective, like most things in music. I note you added the psychedelic qualifier to your original post. That explains why Schoenberg is often chided for his formulaic broadway musicals. Although the harmonies deployed by Brain Wilson on something like In My Room and Wonderful are clearly inspired by barbershop quartets and are commensurately and conventionally 'consonant', they certainly differ from the sort of harmonic conventions deployed by barbershop music. Why are 'barbershop harmonies' being inferred as somehow disparaging when the only point being made is that some of the Beach Boys music was progressive and innovative in intent and execution? You can respect the past without being curtailed by it. If someone confuses barbershop music with an opera they clearly wouldn't have the wherewithal to find a beach, a shop or a barber for want of trying....(and thus would let their hair grow long like some sort of clueless hippy) As my wife was experiencing some severe seizures yesterday, I had to leave the forum as soon as I started posting and it ended up being too long a day to address you later on. The points that I would have brought up included that 1) The close harmonies being referred to as  barber shop harmonies were being tarnished in the dicussion by the Hendrix quote and 2) one of my favorite Prog bands Gentile Giant relied heavily on close 5 part harmonies as does the band Spocks Beard today, but to a lesser extent.     I took no offense to your post as you did not know my circumstances and I do not expect people to be psychic. However, your post did hint of musical elitism which does bother me. I consider all musical forms to be valid artistic expressions regarless if they are a barber shop quartet, an Irish jig, a piano concerto or an opera. I apologise if I misunderstood your intent.

Your fears are groundless as the hint of musical elitism you have inferred was probably caused by my asking for a comparison to 'barber shop harmonies' in the Beach Boys music be retracted by Toddler. It was expressed clumsily but was sincere and I did clarify that the description 'barber shop harmonies' should not be inferred as pejorative. Cut to the chase, is the champion of air travel compared with sailing ships an elitist? Similarly, your post that a barber shop quartet can easily be confused with an opera is just plain vanilla facile as you are clearly not susceptible to such confusion. (and neither is Dean)
Anyways, this is all posturing semantic w.a.n.k. compared to the health of a loved one (musical or otherwise) so I hope your wife is OK and our thoughts are with both of you at this time.


Edited by ExittheLemming - June 20 2014 at 08:21