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Prog.Sylvie View Drop Down

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 13:16

KIng Crimson : les grands pères du prog.rock

C'est la vie

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 13:22

cynthiasmallet wrote:

If you wanted to be pedantic, Bach. But otherwise i'm pretty sure it must have been Crimson. I've heard vapours of a scottish band from around the same period called Cloud, can any one shed some light on these fellows?

There is a thread on that called 1-2-3 Clouds, check it out.

cmidkiff

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 14:12

Dick Heath wrote:

cmidkiff wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath
we freaks in 1969 having heard ITCOCK, called the the Moody Blues the poor man's KC

Thats odd considering the Moody Blues had a couple of albums out before King Crimson and ITCOCK is influenced by the Moody Blues not the other way around.

ITCOCK is mainly considered progressive due to its first song "21st Century Schizoid Man" which, of coarse, is more progressive then anything the Moodies have ever done.

[/QUOTE]

Not odd at all. The other thing that was said then in 1969 before 'the poor man's KC' comments crystallised, was that ITCOCK achieved many things musically which DOFP suggested but ultimately failed to deliver. DOFP was an album that had elements of psychedelia, but because I think you will find it was commissioned by the Phase 4 Stereo section of Decca it was a novel experiment to mix a studio orchestra with a (has-been) pop group - how many hits had the Moodys had between Go Now and Nights In White Satin? It was an experiment to encourage those few young record buyers with stereo equipment to buy the middle aged music of Decca's Phase 4 imprint and grannies to buy softened pop music - not the sudden revolution of progressive rock. I was selling the album in a record shop when it was released for the first time, and there weren't that number of takers (i.e. it didn't burn up the UK charts). The Moodys had to go to the USA to break and then come back to the UK and re-break our marketplace. Please note too at the time, Decca were notorious for issuing monoaural albums months before stereo rock and blues albums rock , when pop fans were second class citizens compared with the Mantovani and classical buyers - I waited over 6 weeks for the stereo version after the mono issue of the Rolling Stones Aftermath, and do believe there was more like 9 months between mono and stereo versions of Mayall's 'Beano' Bluesbreakers album. (A bit of joke nowaday when monoaural editions of records seem to command higher prices than the stereo editions on the 2nd hand market).

[/QUOTE]

Actually I never considered the Moody Blues progressive, when I was listening to them in the 70's. I thought of them as Art Rock along with the likes of Pink Floyd. The first time I ever heard of either of them as progressive was on this site.

I agree and am aware of how the album Days came about, however you forgot to mention the Moodies did most of what they did behind the record labels back, so they still did what they wanted to do which the record label liked anyway.

Edited by cmidkiff - October 10 2007 at 14:13

cmidkiff

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 14:54

Dick Heath wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

Now, if I can only figure out why there has been no response from Dick Heath....

I've decided to only respond to threads that have not been exhausted beyond the point of tolerance - hence the first comment - but even then if they go off at INTERESTING & ORIGINAL TANGENTS, I will be tempted. The second comment is my response to a perception I have, that too many folks don't listen to enough music, read about the subject broadly and deeply, before jumping in. A pity there is a copyright issue, since in response to specific bands/albums being named as the "inventors of prog", I would sent them my compilation CD* showing pretty clearly the evolution from garage, blues, Arabic, Indian raga, gamelan, anglo-celt folk,etc, while musicians were improving their skills, broadening their musical interests beyond pop, and young musicians graduating from music college in the 60's not only seeing a career as a member of a classic orchestra but also wanting to play rock, blues, jazz etc.

(* I'll dig out the playlist of this compilation, with tunes ordered chronologically).

To repeat : rock was in its infancy in 1966/7; Joe Boyd suggest 1964 as rock's start date, rock'n'rock apparently dates back only to 1955 (bollocks - you can find 'race records' made in 1945 sounding remarkably like rock'n'roll). While not putting the mockers on the Beatles (and don't forget George Martin, who turned half imagined ideas into tangible musical forms), a reminder of what the music press of the mid/late 60's used to remind us hippies/freaks: the Beatles were great absorbers of musical trends happening elsewhere, and many of the Beatles innovations stem from Dylan, the US West Coast, the West Indies (e.g. reggae) , India, even Stockhausen- what makes the Beatles special was their ability to digest what was happening around them and expel it in a uniquely Beatles' form. Their apprenticeship in Hamburg at the beginning of the '60's had forced them to build up a huge repertoire of tunes, so that night after night ,soul and tamla motown tunes, progressively got the fab 4 treatment to add to their developing self penned tunes- check out the second Beatles album (the last to have non-beatles compositions?) and everything has the Liverpool sound but often written in Detroit.

In 1969 little stamped clearly "prog music" was issued, as opposed to underground music: 4 albums stood out then as something innovative and moved beyond psychedelia:

ITCOCK

Renaissance

Touch

Wowie Zowie The World Of Progressive Music

Floyd, Soft Machine were very much underground and psychedelic, Tull was still a British blues boom late comer, Yes were doing interesting arrangement s but not prog music. I am amazed that that other Yardbird's spin-off, Renaissance and their first album are so neglected nowadays, (perhaps this record took too long to be issued on CD compared with the 2nd generation Annie Haslam Renaissance recordings). In 1969, Renaissance was as innovative and as talked about at the first Krimson LP - those two albums (and I should add Touch who I have defended for nearly 40 years as America's early first mainstream prog album) represented to us: the avant garde , the new music - but then we probably had to wait until 1971 before the floodgates came down for a rush of progressive music - in 1970 many thing were in different groups' melting-pots of experimentation. And as a final point: comment was made to BJH being the poor man's Moody Blues - we freaks in 1969 having heard ITCOCK, called the the Moody Blues the poor man's KC, in part because Crimson were using the Mellotron for its own voice, not a string section alternative! However, the Moody Blues provided one step up in the evolution of progressive rock.

So can we please get back to some original discussions. And to any newbies and others, please do a local search, read the multiude of similar threads (especially if you have an idea for a new thread which seems obvious - how long has Progarchives been going now?) AND IF in probability you have something original to add, resurrect the that thread, it'll bubble to the head of the thread-list and get seen.

Such a long post when all I was pointing out was that In The Court Of The Crimson King should be ITCOTCK not ITCOCK. Whasamadda you people?

And while I'm at it .5 rounds up not down. Sheesh!

Edited by Slartibartfast - October 10 2007 at 14:55

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 15:40

Easy Money wrote:

There is a thread on that called 1-2-3 Clouds, check it out.

Here, in fact: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41915 - and I think we've collected just about every link there is on the net to these guys - and I'm working on getting more information.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Progger

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:10

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

WHO is not a valid question, because no person or band alone started Progressive Rock.

Progressive Rock is the logical consequence of a musical evolutionary process that took many years to reach it's peak.

Iván

Correct, it roots can be found in different genres, though it did start to take its shape with bands like The Nice, Moody Blues, Curved Air ect. King Crimson was defineatly not the first prog band. If you do any research on prog rocks origins ITCOTKC does not get mentioned as the first prog album so I don't know where that idea comes from?

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:18

cmidkiff wrote:

Actually I never considered the Moody Blues progressive,

Well they're represented on the first prog sampler album Wowie Zowie The World Of Progressive Music (and that was 1969!) - although the cynic in me feels Decca Records were trying to boost sales of the sampler (but it was less than a pound in pre-decimal coinage) by the inclusion of a recent past hit single.

However, all this history still doesn't change the fact that ITCOCK was influenced by the Moodies, whether or not King Crimson took it farther. Which is why I said its odd to consider the predecessor to be the poor man's version.

I not fully convinced by that thought - indeed Giles Giles & Fripp recordings (Insanity Tapes) don't hint that - Tapes with a number of precursors of tunes for ITCOtheCK, even suggests a folk aspect with Judy Dyble providing vocals - Dyble had just left Fairport C. The Giles also brought a jazz element to KC, which the MB didn't have.

Edited by Dick Heath - October 10 2007 at 17:19

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Tony R

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:28

Dick Heath wrote:

cmidkiff wrote:

Our resident Prof of Prog punctures another misconception about Progressive Rock history.. Clap

Dick Heath View Drop Down

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Posted: October 10 2007 at 17:29

Here's the promised prog evolution compilation in the track order on the CD and in approximate chronological order of recording. Note: I limited myself to fitting tracks onto a single 80 minute burn - hence shorter tracks in some instances rather than favourites from particular albums to give breadth of examples - and a deliberate inclusion of later tunes that don't quite fit my opinion as being prog, with comparisons adjacent. I'm not claiming the first three are prog, but all are experimental having some of the elements that will be utilised more fully from 1968 onwards.

1. White Rabbit: Great Society (1965/6)

2. Section 43: Country Joe & The Fish (1966)

3. You Keep Me Hangin’ On: Vanilla Fudge (1968)

4. Nights In White Satin: Moody Blues (1967)

5. My White Bicycle: Tomorrow (1967)

6. Astronomy Domine: Pink Floyd (1967)

7. She Said Good Morning: Pretty Things (1967)

8. Azrial: Nice

9./10./11. Hope For Happiness/Joy Of A Toy/ Hope For Happiness (Reprise): Soft Machine (1968)

12. The American Metaphysical Circus: The United States Of America (1968)

13. Every Little Thing: Yes (1968)

14. We Feel Fine: Touch (1968)

15. The Wanderer: Renaissance (1969)

16. Epitaph: King Crimson (1969)

17. Love Has Found A Way: Spirit (1970)

With the recent knowledge that 90minute CD burns are available, I might be tempted to extend the compilation for instance replacing the Spirit with American Gypsy's 1970 recording Dead & Gone (a much better candidate for early American prog, which clocks in >10 minutes) 0r go for Touch's Alesha & others/75 (at ~13') or one of the longer tracks (e.g. Kings & Queens) on the Renaissance album.

I must also add, that the main aim of this disc was pleasurable and varied listening, as well as a pseudo-intellectual exercise.

Edited by Dick Heath - October 10 2007 at 17:50

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Teh_Slippermenz View Drop Down

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 01:33

I want to say The Nice?? "The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack" is considered one of the first, if not THE first, progressive rock album(s).

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 03:17

Dick Heath wrote:

Here's the promised prog evolution compilation in the track order on the CD and in approximate chronological order of recording. Note: I limited myself to fitting tracks onto a single 80 minute burn - hence shorter tracks in some instances rather than favourites from particular albums to give breadth of examples - and a deliberate inclusion of later tunes that don't quite fit my opinion as being prog, with comparisons adjacent. I'm not claiming the first three are prog, but all are experimental having some of the elements that will be utilised more fully from 1968 onwards.

1. White Rabbit: Great Society (1965/6)

2. Section 43: Country Joe & The Fish (1966)

3. You Keep Me Hangin’ On: Vanilla Fudge (1968)

4. Nights In White Satin: Moody Blues (1967)

5. My White Bicycle: Tomorrow (1967)

6. Astronomy Domine: Pink Floyd (1967)

7. She Said Good Morning: Pretty Things (1967)

8. Azrial: Nice

9./10./11. Hope For Happiness/Joy Of A Toy/ Hope For Happiness (Reprise): Soft Machine (1968)

12. The American Metaphysical Circus: The United States Of America (1968)

13. Every Little Thing: Yes (1968)

14. We Feel Fine: Touch (1968)

15. The Wanderer: Renaissance (1969)

16. Epitaph: King Crimson (1969)

17. Love Has Found A Way: Spirit (1970)

I must also add, that the main aim of this disc was pleasurable and varied listening, as well as a pseudo-intellectual exercise.

I'd like to suggest "Red the Sign Post" by Fifty Foot Hose (1967), 10,000 Words in a Cardboard Box by The Aquarian Age (1968) or Twink (1970), and "Love Without Sound" by White Noise (1969) as important in the evolution - and very enjoyable electronic/spacey additions to your selection.

Also worthy of consideration is "Happiness Stan" from the Small Faces' Ogden's Nut Gone (1968) - an overlooked confection of ideas in a very progressive rock style that gives coverage to the Blues-Rock roots.

Rather than include anything by Yes, I'd suggest "Flying on the Ground is Wrong" from Buffalo Springfield's debut (1966).

Then there's "8 Miles High" by The Byrds,"Desolation Row" by Bob Dylan (1965) and "Save the Life of My Child" or even "America" from Simon and Garfunkel's "Bookends".

This could easily turn into a double...

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Dick Heath View Drop Down

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 05:03

Certif1ed wrote:

1. White Rabbit: Great Society (1965/6)

2. Section 43: Country Joe & The Fish (1966)

3. You Keep Me Hangin’ On: Vanilla Fudge (1968)

4. Nights In White Satin: Moody Blues (1967)

5. My White Bicycle: Tomorrow (1967)

6. Astronomy Domine: Pink Floyd (1967)

7. She Said Good Morning: Pretty Things (1967)

8. Azrial: Nice

9./10./11. Hope For Happiness/Joy Of A Toy/ Hope For Happiness (Reprise): Soft Machine (1968)

12. The American Metaphysical Circus: The United States Of America (1968)

13. Every Little Thing: Yes (1968)

14. We Feel Fine: Touch (1968)

15. The Wanderer: Renaissance (1969)

16. Epitaph: King Crimson (1969)

17. Love Has Found A Way: Spirit (1970)

I must also add, that the main aim of this disc was pleasurable and varied listening, as well as a pseudo-intellectual exercise.

Rather than include anything by Yes, I'd suggest "Flying on the Ground is Wrong" from Buffalo Springfield's debut (1966).

Then there's "8 Miles High" by The Byrds,"Desolation Row" by Bob Dylan (1965) and "Save the Life of My Child" or even "America" from Simon and Garfunkel's "Bookends".

This could easily turn into a double...

No arguments - I should have (and will do now) say: go away and do your own thing wrt a compilation burn............. once you've exposed yourself to a lot of the music that was being played from 1960 to 1970-ish.My compo is an attempt to demonstrate prog evolution, based on what I have and some favourites. The Yes track is there as one of those examples of a band heading in the right direction but not quite being there - I agree with Sid Smith that The Yes Album saw their gelation.

I will also like to modify a little wrt what I stated about Tull and late British blue boom band. I stated in PA quite some time ago, that the electric blues bands that were getting popular 1967/8, were amongst the earliest labelled 'progressive music' then- Canned Heat ( perhaps the earliest US blues band to besuccessful in the UK) and John Mayall were definitely amongst the first groups in that section, I personally introduced into the local record shop, I then worked. So if the earlier blues boom bands were accepted indeed so would have This Was - but because of the shear numbers of British blues bands to pop up in a very short period and get recording contracts, then a 'Blues' section was introduced pretty smartish and This Was would certainly be in that section as expected by the punter then. Tull would really get passed the Mick Abrahams period before really being called a prog rock band.

White Noise? Bought the album on the day of its release: definitely part of the evolution and in part a rather successful attempt to popularise what serious electronic pioneers were doing (e.g. Milton Subotnik with Silver Apples Of the Moon , Wild Bull - even Terry Riley based and recording in Paris in the mid 60's). However, they relied on analogue equipment and lots of tape loops - requiring time-consuming (literal) cut and paste to produce effects. An Electric Storm has a 'daft' side (from which Kenny Everett plundered effects for radio jingles) and the serious side. I've just read a review that compared White Noise's AES with PF's Sauceful of Secrets, claiming that White Noise showed that electronic music could be very dark, but this aspect had not been hinted at by Floyd. Again if I made some alternative choices and plenty of space I would go for Visitations - a major piece of sad , creepy and undoubtedly, original composition/arrangement.

BTW Twink plays drums on the Tomorrow track listed - and indeed went off at a heavy rock tangent with the Pink Fairies ............................... Okay Spirit (included as an end filler and to demonstrate some innovative bands didn't make the move to prog), stayed associated with late period psychedelia, and by the time Jo Jo Gunne split off to play west coast AOR, they hadn't evolved into a prog band

Edited by Dick Heath - October 11 2007 at 05:27

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 06:34

Dick Heath wrote:

I've just read a review that compared White Noise's AES with PF's Sauceful of Secrets, claiming that White Noise showed that electronic music could be very dark, but this aspect had not been hinted at by Floyd.

Hmm - I'd dispute that the dark side wan't hinted at by Floyd - I think Floyd more than hinted at it.

"The Visitation" is certainly way out there - I just felt that "Love Without Sound" was a bit more accessible - as befits the rest of your fine selection - yet hugely progressive at the same time.

The "Daft side" would be "The Fleas" - that's the track Kenny used as his jingle.

As for "Black Mass: Electric Storm in Hell", yes, it's darker than "Saucerful", but it's pretty much based on that track, particularly in the drum rhythms - and was cobbled together quickly so that David and Delia had a full album's worth of material. It's good in it's own way, but "The Visitation" shows a huge amount of art and craft that's missing from Black Mass.

My favourite review of the album is here: http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/review/1143

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cmidkiff

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 10:33

Dick Heath wrote:

cmidkiff wrote:

Giles Giles & Fripp still doesn't predate Days fo Future Past. And, I'm not saying that King Crimson is a clone of the Moody Blues, far from it. You seem to be missing the point. Just because they bought a jazz influence that the Moodies never had doesn't mean they weren't influenced by them. I'm sure they took their influences from many sources like most bands did.

cmidkiff

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 10:34

Tony R wrote:

Dick Heath wrote:

cmidkiff wrote:

Our resident Prof of Prog punctures another misconception about Progressive Rock history.. Clap

What misconception is that?

cmidkiff

ozzy_tom

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 12:53

I think that such bands created progressive rock:

-The Nice
-Procol Harum
-Pink Floyd
-The Moody Blues
-Iron Butterfly
-The Crazy World of Arthur Brown
-King Crimson
-Colosseum

But I really don't know who was THE FIRST.

Edited by ozzy_tom - October 11 2007 at 12:54

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 13:06

cmidkiff wrote:

Dick Heath wrote:

cmidkiff wrote:

But I've made the point that DOFP was not particularly successful when first released - in part because of the original label's usual market. Success here really came after breaking America and there was quite some time the MBs were out of sight out of mind in the UK, with many many new musical things happening and occupying us in the UK. But it would be madness to totally deny any form influence (and would to a limited extent deny my main thesis that prog underwent an evolution based on building on multiple reference points and influences - that's why Night in White Satin is in that compilation) ), but as to it being substantial is far more debatable. Having read round the field in some depth I don't remember seeing this relationship stated before - apart from the mickey take as to ICOTCK being something the MBs aimed for and missed.

Remember I was attempting to put the thread into some form of historical context, & on invitation, using many examples to make my case for evolution where space and detail had to be limited. However, I will check with a usually reliable source of information, Krimson biographer Sid Smith, as to whether there was a MB influence.

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Posted: October 11 2007 at 13:09

Well... No bands really invented the Prog because it does part of the natural evolution of the Rock.

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