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Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
Posted: November 06 2010 at 05:14
BaldFriede wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
I don't understand the hate, displeasure, dislike of an artist who has for 40yrs worked hard to be the best at what they do. I firmly believe had Rush quit after say 15-20yrs all these people would think differently and more would call him the greatest. But the fact that he is still drumming at the level that he is for his age and to put on 2.5 hour shows...is simply amazing.
If the music of Rush does not excite you then don't listen to it. You can find thousands of youtube vids on Rush in performance, its out there if you want to see it, go look for yourself. Why would I post it?
And for those that think he has not evolved? Then you really have not seen what he has done with his drumming technique between 90's to now. He has picked up a lot of what Buddy Rich was doing and some others.
I don't like the term "greatest" for anybody. He is between option 1 and 2 for me...so I will pick #2 with an up arrow.
And like the big Dog, I too am full of horsekrapp because I think he is a brilliant, amazing, accomplished drummer.......for easily the last 30yrs.
There are much older drummers around than Peart. Peart is fifty-eight. Jon Hiseman is sixty-six, and Mani Neumeier will be seventy-one by the end of the year. Both are very much alive and kicking... err, drumming.And once again: Peart IS an accomplished drummer; I never doubted that. But there are countless other drummers who are equally accomplished, with carreers even much longer. Peart has nothing on them except for a big name.Mani Neumeier does things on stage wich Peart would never dare. With Peart every single strole in a solo is planned ahead and well-rehearsed. Now look at this solo, especially the second half after Mani stands up. You can't plan or rehearse that; you have to improvise.
I appreciate you posting that performance by Mani......it was very entertaining. But his pot and pan playing skills well basically suck.....I have seen much better performances at my local state fair......
This guy has amazing pot/pan playing abilities.......Mani should look this guy up.
You missed a subtle but important difference. Mani's pots and plates are moving around all the time. The pots and plates of your drummer don't..
It's a ridiuclous comparison. Mani is good, but lets be frank about this, there is no part of what he is doing that Peart couldn't do in his sleep. The fact that Peart doesn't play this way, doesn't mean he can't, it just means it would be completely out of place in Rush.
What it really comes down to in these discussions is what type of music you prefer.
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 05:48
I love Peart - he may not be the best drummer, but he is definitely one of my favorites.
The accusation that his solo hasn't changed over the years is false by the way. There are also sections that he does improvise as well, and his solo during this last tour was much more experimental than I had anticipated. The solo before that one was also pretty damn different. As for drum solos, I found the first half of Mani's drum solo to be boring but the second half is pretty damn sweet - probably because of the expansion of the sound palette. On the other hand, why I love Peart's solos is because they are so damn lyrical - The Rhythm Method on Different Stages is a song in itself!
As Blacksword said, it all comes down to what kind of drumming you prefer. I love Peart's mechanical drumming and Subdivisions, one of my favorite drum songs, is among his most mechanical. The fact that he doesn't change the drums from studio to live means I can air drum while at the concert which I view as a plus (not that improv is bad either).
My favorite drummer is Phil Collins and it's because of what he added to Genesis. He is talented, but what mattered is how his drumming contributed to the overall sound of Genesis. I love Neil Peart because his style contributes to the overall sound of Rush - a sound I really enjoy. Bonham is another great example - could any other of the major drummers fit into Zeppelin? Or Keith Moon to the Who? That's really what matters - not skill, but how the style contributes to the music. To speak of one drummer being better than the other when all of the drummers we are discussing are so damn good is pointless.
Joined: June 22 2004
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 09:04
Kestrel wrote:
I love Peart - he may not be the best drummer, but he is definitely one of my favorites.
The accusation that his solo hasn't changed over the years is false by the way. There are also sections that he does improvise as well, and his solo during this last tour was much more experimental than I had anticipated. The solo before that one was also pretty damn different. As for drum solos, I found the first half of Mani's drum solo to be boring but the second half is pretty damn sweet - probably because of the expansion of the sound palette. On the other hand, why I love Peart's solos is because they are so damn lyrical - The Rhythm Method on Different Stages is a song in itself!
As Blacksword said, it all comes down to what kind of drumming you prefer. I love Peart's mechanical drumming and Subdivisions, one of my favorite drum songs, is among his most mechanical. The fact that he doesn't change the drums from studio to live means I can air drum while at the concert which I view as a plus (not that improv is bad either).
My favorite drummer is Phil Collins and it's because of what he added to Genesis. He is talented, but what mattered is how his drumming contributed to the overall sound of Genesis. I love Neil Peart because his style contributes to the overall sound of Rush - a sound I really enjoy. Bonham is another great example - could any other of the major drummers fit into Zeppelin? Or Keith Moon to the Who? That's really what matters - not skill, but how the style contributes to the music. To speak of one drummer being better than the other when all of the drummers we are discussing are so damn good is pointless.
Good post. Subdivisions is an excellent example of how Pearts formula works in Rush. The song has an almost cold mechanical feel, which is contrasted by the emotional lyrics; a misfit trying to find his place in an world where there seems to be no room for emotion and free expression. I think it's one of their most heart felt songs.
Phil Collins is also my favourite drummer, largely because of the feel he brings to the music. While I regard him as perhaps more versatile than Peart, I have enormous respect for Neil. He has said that playing to click tracks for a decade had made is drumming somewhat mechanical, and he sought drum lessons late on in his career so he could 'loosen up' for the next chapter in what Rush were doing. I think he succeeded, although I do prefer the Rush of old. To manage this transition, while managing all the other sh*t in his life, and to jointly take Rush to incredible heights of popularity once again, has to be applauded.
Joined: December 23 2009
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 12:06
^ Agree
...this whole "mechanical" thing/excuse is just that.....There is nothing more mechanical than classical musicians, all the motions are choreographed. From this perspective I don't have a problem with it because its all about the musical style. If you struggle with appreciating classical musicians and their playing style then I can see how you might struggle with a style like Neil Peart's and maybe a Carl Palmer style.
Mani is a jazz drummer, so his style and persona is much different, I doubt you ever see Neil have a mic by him and he start yelling to get the crowd into it.....So I agree the comparison makes no sense. I added the guy at the boardwalk as a mere joke for his pot/pan playing skills...
We have all heard and know that Keith Moon and Bonham are huge influences on Neil Peart, but that does not mean he has to play like them. He obviously appreciates the mad skills they had underneath all that sloppy playing style.
There is so much more to Neil than just being a drummer, he is a very good writer too.....not just in the Rush lyrics but more so in some of the books he has written and also his monthly blog on his website. I can just imagine what a Moon or Bonham would have written about on their blogs back in the day....that would be some great reading for sure!
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 12:21
^^^
You may be confusing precision with mechanical playing. Classical is precise but enriched with dynamics, so a great classical performance would not sound mechanical. Some heavy metal modes of playing do sound mechanical, as in lacking variation. It's not for nothing it's said that metal is played at 11 right through, which would not happen in classical. Peart does have that problem like many other metal drummers and he doesn't have the spontaneity of Bill Ward or Ian Paice. However, he has awesome groove which for me makes him much more enjoyable than someone like Portnoy, who, for all his skill, I find difficult to endure. By the by, I tend to lump Rush in metal rather than hard rock, because they favour highly technical and precise style of playing, which is more important in metal (Megadeth) than hard rock (AC DC).
Joined: May 28 2005
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 12:35
you are both wrong. first of all, there is nothing mechanical about classical music. this is a misunderstanding brought up by the idealisation of "genius" of the romantic era. before the romantic era there was a lot of room for improvisation; the romantic ideal of genius was that performers should stick to the written notes and nothing else. this ideal was cherished for a long time afterwards. however, modern interpretations bring back that element of improvisation into classical music. most gre4at composers were virtuosos on some instrument and masters of improvisation; there are countless anecdoltes which prove that. also the solo parts of concertos for certain instruments always left room for improvisation and are by no means always completely written out
Edited by BaldJean - November 06 2010 at 12:39
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Joined: December 23 2009
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 15:26
I am not talking about the music....I am talking about playing style. Forget about the music, classical, rock, jazz, country......it was playing style I was trying to make a point about. Sorry if I was not clear.
The comment was made that Neil's strokes are all planned out...to me that is just like a classical trained musician plays.....and I have ZERO problem with that. I do feel Neil is very fluid in his motion.
Again if you listen to Rush then you know the improvisions they all do on stage......Its not drastic all the time, but subtle enough for a Rush listener to pick out and appreciate.
Joined: May 28 2005
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 15:45
Catcher10 wrote:
I am not talking about the music....I am talking about
playing style. Forget about the music, classical, rock, jazz,
country......it was playing style I was trying to make a point about.
Sorry if I was not clear.
The comment was made that Neil's strokes are all planned out...to
me that is just like a classical trained musician plays.....and I have
ZERO problem with that. I do feel Neil is very fluid in his motion.
Again if you listen to Rush then you know the improvisions they all
do on stage......Its not drastic all the time, but subtle enough for a
Rush listener to pick out and appreciate.
Cheers everyone!
but it isn't.. this is a general misconception which is not true at all. do you know, for example, how many concertos there are for some instrument + basso continuo? now if you think that "basso continuo2 is a bass line which is repeated over annd over by cerzain instruments - think again. a basso continuo player improvises all the time; all he or she has to go by is the harmoinic structure. this is exactly what jazz musicians are doing, only that jazz musicians use different harmonic structures and rhythms
Edited by BaldJean - November 06 2010 at 15:54
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Joined: July 16 2004
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 19:02
I love this "what I think is what I know" line of reasoning. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Also, to repeat, during the last year or so Neil Peart has been improvising parts of his drum solo, therefore any argument that states that Peart never does x, or always does y, fails.
According to many drum sites Peart is the most popular drummer on the planet. He has also, apparently, influenced more people to take up the drums in N.America than anyone else over the last 30 years. That's a good thing isnt it?
As for who's the best, well who cares? I'm all for the guy who has delighted and enthralled millions over 4 decades and propelled an unfashionable cult band from Canadian obscurity to 40 million plus album sales superstardom.
Rush played to nearly 50,000 people in Santiago recently and the stadium was a sea of air drummers delighting in every beat - that's the true mark of Peart's legacy. How many of those people will take up or have already taken up the drums because of that one man? That's something that a Moerlan or a Vander could never do. And dont give me that "popularity does not equal quality" nonsense. This is a Canadian Heavy Prog band we are talking about, not Britny Spears...
That's what 50,000 singing to an instrumental sounds like...
Joined: May 28 2005
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 20:03
Tony R wrote:
I love this "what I think is what I know" line of reasoning. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Also, to repeat, during the last year or so Neil Peart has been improvising parts of his drum solo, therefore any argument that states that Peart never does x, or always does y, fails.
According to many drum sites Peart is the most popular drummer on the planet. He has also, apparently, influenced more people to take up the drums in N.America than anyone else over the last 30 years. That's a good thing isnt it?
As for who's the best, well who cares? I'm all for the guy who has delighted and enthralled millions over 4 decades and propelled an unfashionable cult band from Canadian obscurity to 40 million plus album sales superstardom.
Rush played to nearly 50,000 people in Santiago recently and the stadium was a sea of air drummers delighting in every beat - that's the true mark of Peart's legacy. How many of those people will take up or have already taken up the drums because of that one man? That's something that a Moerlan or a Vander could never do. And dont give me that "popularity does not equal quality" nonsense. This is a Canadian Heavy Prog band we are talking about, not Britny Spears...
That's what 50,000 singing to an instrumental sounds like...
"on the planet" is a bit overdoing it. on the North American continent I will agree with. he is not especially popular in Europe, whatever you say, and definitely not in areas like India, where they have lots of drummers from their own country which are popular. I also doubt he is espcially popular in Africa, another region where there are a lot more local drummers which are popular. but I sincerely doubt these drum sites you mention ever cared to research there. and don't give me that nonsense of sales; they don''t say anything about quality of a muscian. if they did we would have to consider Ringo Starr to be the best drummer
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 21:18
Catcher10 wrote:
I do feel Neil is very fluid in his motion.
He is, he has great technique. However, as I said earlier, there's an inbuilt fatigue factor built into going hammer and tongs all the way almost right through a set. I guess people who really, really like heavy music don't feel this sense of fatigue so much, but I, especially when the heaviness accompanies technicality/complexity, find it fatiguing. I want more expression in the drumming but that's also very difficult to accomplish in hard/heavy styles of drumming. Someone like Collins is a lot more expressive, look at how he almost submerges in the background while still very effectively emphasizing the subtle swells and ebbs in the instrumental section of Cinema Show, all the while playing fast too. I have never heard Peart do something like that and I appreciate that that is a problem inherent to playing heavy music but I can only judge what's in front of me.
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 21:28
BaldJean wrote:
he is not especially popular in Europe, whatever you say, and definitely not in areas like India, where they have lots of drummers from their own country which are popular.
I am afraid that's not true. The only local drummer of some repute in India is the very talented Sivamani who was also part of Shakti in their 2000-odd reunion. There are also some percussionists like Trilok Gurtu but they are not drummers in the Neil Peart sense, you know, playing rock or that sort of stuff. The percentage of music listeners that's aware of Western music here is small but within that subset, Neil Peart is definitely very popular, "God" and all that! Let me see, Lars Ulrich, Joey Jordison, Nicko McBrain, Mike Portnoy and Neil Peart are the most popular drummers here and also commonly held up to be the best. They do know of Phil Collins from his popstar days but likely don't know just how good a drummer he is. Palmer? Bruford? Er, Buddy Rich? No idea, would be the general response. Rush and Dream Theater are both especially popular among youngsters going to school or college and learning to play an instrument, usually electric guitar.
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 21:29
However, I do agree with your point that popularity doesn't count. I am sure you'd agree that the most talented keyboardist on the planet doesn't have an iota of Geddy Lee's popularity.
Joined: June 02 2005
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 21:48
I am not sure what people mean by "popular". For me "popular" means "well known outside of fan circles". I do not doubt that Rush fans know his name and that there are lots of Rush fans in Europe.. But I had not heard of Peart before I came to this site, or maybe I did hear of him and forgot; anyway, his name did not make enough of a lasting impression on me to ring a bell. I could have given you the names of dozens of other drummers though. What is this? Selective perception? Or did I just happen to move in circles in which he was extremely unpopular? I have no idea, but you can believe me that it is true that I was not familiar with his name at all before I came to this site. On the other hand Jean did know him and told me about him when I mentioned I had not heard his name before, but somehow he never was the subject of one of our talks before we discovered this site.
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 21:52
I guess that you never read any of the articles in the Playboy magazines where he was voted number 1 drummer of the year 10 years in a row. Probably too busy looking at the pics? I do find it strange, but then again I'd never heard of any of the drummers that you two are always mentioning either so as usual I've added another worthless post.
Joined: June 02 2005
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 22:13
rushfan4 wrote:
I guess that you never read any of the articles in the Playboy magazines where he was voted number 1 drummer of the year 10 years in a row. Probably too busy looking at the pics? I do find it strange, but then again I'd never heard of any of the drummers that you two are always mentioning either so as usual I've added another worthless post.
I don't read Playboy; the only comparable magazine I read is the Sappho magazine.
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 23:01
BaldFriede wrote:
For me "popular" means "well known outside of fan circles"
Firstly, Peart IS one of the more recognized names as far as drummers go OUTSIDE the Rush fanbase. Many people who don't listen to Rush or are not much interested in their music will still say Peart is a great drummer.
Secondly, no, popularity within a large fanbase does count. Just because people outside Linkin Park's fanbase would not rate Chester Bennington as a singer - and he's technically not bad at all - doesn't mean he is not popular.
Joined: June 02 2005
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Posted: November 06 2010 at 23:31
I can only repeat that I never heard of him before I came here, believe it or not. He was definitely not popular in the circles I moved in. And we listened tol a lot of prog. Rush do not exactly have a prog image in Germany, by the way; many see them as a hard rock band, and that was my view of them too from the little I had heard of them.
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BaldFriede wrote:
I do find it strange, but then again I'd never heard of any of the drummers that you two are always mentioning either so as usual I've added another worthless post. 
