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progismylife 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
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Points: 15535
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 Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:29 |
 cuncuna wrote:
You have to know about words to understand words. Appart from deaf poeple, I really doubt that a single person exist wihout ever being exposed to music. that's as much format as you need. Complex void structure is less interesting than simple structure with profound meaning.
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Right,by your logic, you have to know music to understand music. But you can still like it without understanding it. I have seen people who like prog and eventually want to understand music better and pick up an instrument and , eventually, become a musician.
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
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Points: 4318
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:38 |
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No, it is impossible for we humans to not trace those conceptual maps instantaneously. With time, they get richer. Playing an instrument won't make you understand music better, as seen on Kenny G.
Being exposed to music even one time will create a nmemonic image; a memory. With further exposure, the memory will be almost automatically compared with other stored memories, and the map is built. With vast exposure, the map gets intrincated, and your possibility of expression within that particular language (code) evolves. If not to play music, to describe it and use it as a vehicle of asbtract thought.
Edited by cuncuna - November 04 2006 at 08:41
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:41 |
cuncuna wrote:
No, it is impossible for we humans to not trace those conceptual maps instantaneously. With time, they get richer. Playing an instrument won't make you understand music better, as seen on Kenny G. |
Playing an instrument can help you understand it better, not make you understand it better.
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:42 |
progismylife wrote:
cuncuna wrote:
No, it is impossible for we humans to not trace those conceptual maps instantaneously. With time, they get richer. Playing an instrument won't make you understand music better, as seen on Kenny G. |
Playing an instrument can help you understand it better, not make you understand it better. |
Listening to tons and reading about the construction behind can also help. ¿Know any visual arts critic?. They don't paint, they master the particular codes that validates art forms.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:45 |
cuncuna wrote:
Listening to tons and reading about the construction behind can also help. ¿Know any visual arts critic?. They don't paint, they master the particular codes that validates art forms.
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I agree. Being a musician is just one of the ways to understand it better. If you read a lot on the reasons why it sounds good that would help too.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
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Points: 15535
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:47 |
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For instance the Beatles songs sound good, and they used certain chord sequences. People that read into the chord changes they use see how complex they were without knowing how to play it, but still understand why it sounds good without actually playing it.
Edited by progismylife - November 04 2006 at 08:50
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
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Points: 4318
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:55 |
progismylife wrote:
For instance the Beatles songs sound good, and they used certain chord sequences. People that read into the chord changes they use see how complex they were without knowing how to play it, but still understand why it sounds good without actually playing it.
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I think even the Beatles themselves didn't knew any theoric reason about those chords. Anyway, is not just the chord. There is always a intention behind a comunicative act, such as art in general. If not, you get Dream Theaterated: pure instrumental masturbation with no purpose, no end, no goal, no beggining, no nothing. sometimes, I suspect that those guys are just testing the instruments. They are like a DEMO band for yamaha and ensoniq and other brands. They are the finest example of just adding weird chords by the book and with not thought to sustain or justify those chord choices.
Edited by cuncuna - November 04 2006 at 08:57
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:57 |
cuncuna wrote:
I think even the Beatles themselves didn't knew any theoric reason about those chords. Anyway, is not just the chord. There is alwasy a intention behind a comunicative act, such as art in general. If not, you getb Dream Theaterated: pure instrumental masturbation with no purpose, no end, no goal, no beggining, no nothing. sometimes, I suspect that those guys are just testing the instruments. Htey are like a DEMO band for yamaha and ensoniq and other brands.
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Yeah the Beatles didn't even know how complex it was, they just thought it sounded good. But I wouldn't know about you Dream Theater statement because I currently have been unable to listen to them.
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 08:58 |
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Sorry there, Dream Theater fans.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
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Points: 4252
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 09:00 |
Nobody needs to play an instrument to appreciate music!
As an analogy of sorts, how many people sit in a car as a passenger and become knowledgable about the intricacies of the highway code? Quite a few apparently from my experience of back seat drivers. How many drive very well but don't even know how to open the bonnet? when i learned to drive any working knowledge of an internal combustion engine wasn't mandatory but you were expected to know the basics, this has helped when knowing when something was mechanically faulty, or what to do when a breakdown occurs (or you can call the AA!).
So no, you don't need to be a musician to appreciate Prog - but playing gives you a deeper insight into how it is structured and created.  |
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 09:01 |
progismylife wrote:
cuncuna wrote:
I think even the Beatles themselves didn't knew any theoric reason about those chords. Anyway, is not just the chord. There is alwasy a intention behind a comunicative act, such as art in general. If not, you getb Dream Theaterated: pure instrumental masturbation with no purpose, no end, no goal, no beggining, no nothing. sometimes, I suspect that those guys are just testing the instruments. Htey are like a DEMO band for yamaha and ensoniq and other brands.
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Yeah the Beatles didn't even know how complex it was, they just thought it sounded good. But I wouldn't know about you Dream Theater statement because I currently have been unable to listen to them. |
They just needed their emotions reflected as sound. As for Dream Theater, there are samples here, I guess. Maybe you'll like them, since there is always a personal filter on appreciation. That is way, on matters of symbols and systems of production of them, meaning is so variable. It is also impossible for two people to hear the same thing in any given abstract composition. The same goes for seeing, reading, etc.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 09:06 |
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Blargh...
Nej Hujomp klohjgedee flurrr!!!
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 11:49 |
In a way, saying prog is for musicians only is like saying David Lynch only makes movies for Director Universities
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 11:51 |
cuncuna wrote:
progismylife wrote:
cuncuna wrote:
I think even the Beatles themselves didn't knew any theoric reason about those chords. Anyway, is not just the chord. There is alwasy a intention behind a comunicative act, such as art in general. If not, you getb Dream Theaterated: pure instrumental masturbation with no purpose, no end, no goal, no beggining, no nothing. sometimes, I suspect that those guys are just testing the instruments. Htey are like a DEMO band for yamaha and ensoniq and other brands.
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Yeah the Beatles didn't even know how complex it was, they just thought it sounded good. But I wouldn't know about you Dream Theater statement because I currently have been unable to listen to them. |
They just needed their emotions reflected as sound. As for Dream Theater, there are samples here, I guess. Maybe you'll like them, since there is always a personal filter on appreciation. That is way, on matters of symbols and systems of production of them, meaning is so variable. It is also impossible for two people to hear the same thing in any given abstract composition. The same goes for seeing, reading, etc. |
With that you justify your ridiculous bashing against Dream Theater?
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 15:55 |
cuncuna wrote:
The T wrote:
Man...Why the controversy?!! As I and others said, what we mean is, THERE ARE SOME ELEMENTS IN MUSIC THAT YOU'LL APPRECIATE MORE if you are a musician OR IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT MUSIC THEORY at least.... But I insist: anyone with an OPEN MIND and ART SENSIBILITY may like, may love prog..... and I repeat: there ARE MUSICIANS WHO DON'T HAVE THAT, too....so please, don;t take offense where no offense was meant to be done....Gee.. |
¿Are there elements in sex that you'll appreciate more if you are a porno star?. Sorry, but cognitive theory says otherwhise. You just need a conceptual map to get the whole picture, even if the terms to describe certain sensations or perceptions are not the oficial ones. ¿A musician invented music?. The most innovative musicians usually don't know a thing about music, they just explore and develope language on their own. John Cage and others looked for an exit to plain music score and notes and formal elemnts, since it is in human nature to produce sounds and rythm.
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...Again with the textbook answers.... good memory, really good.
Let's not use the word appreciate then, let's say that a musician may RECOGNIZE things that the non-musician will not, like purely musical intricacies, like a person with no knowledge may think a particular part is impossible to play while the one that knows a little bit knows how it's played (it happened to me when I was not yet a drummer, I used to wonder and be amazed at fills or rhythms that later on I understood where not that difficult or not that original)....Now can you say this isn't so? Let's try not to explain everything with books of language, linguism and what your teacher todl you....let's use our own words every once in a while..... I INSIST: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A MUSICAN TO LOVE OR APPRECIATE MUSIC, but AT LEAST FOR CERTAIN "MEANINGLESS" (for you) DETAILS, IT HELPS...... don;t compare sex with musici.... even animals have sex....it's a primal instinct for our conservation....It's a great thing, too, but hey, don;t compare it to music, for these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS...YOU DON;T HAVE TO STUDY OR LEARN ANYTHING TO HAVE SEX (some practive helps, off course) , BUT EVEN SELF-TAUGHT MUSICIANS HAVE TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM ANOTHER SOURCE....
Now, I wait for the textbook answer..... and hey! I'm telling you this: you know a lot about meanings and language.... DID YOU STUDY IT, OR READ IT IN BOOKS AT LEAST, OR YOU CAME FROM THE WOMB KNOWING ALL THESE???
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 16:02 |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 18:25 |
yeah, i think I may have lost it.... but to anyone that still doesn't get it:
forget what we said about being a musician to appreciate prog.... it could help... or it could make things worse...whatever you prefer.... the thing is, if you enjoy music, whatever kind of music, if it fills your heart and mind, if you are LIVING it, man, you are doing it the right way, whether you know what a minor scale and a diminished seventh is or not, and maybe when you know about stuff like that, you tend to square your music and over analyze it...in the end, is music, and not classical music, but good rock music, so enjoy it..... my sincere greetings to every progger, for this forum gives chance to good discussion....I LOVE YOU ALL (in a Flower Kings kind of way, not in a Celine Dion kind of way, if you know what I mean)
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blbx93
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 92
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 21:19 |
Most musicians have a higher appreciation for music. This is why America needs music in school, so the garbage on the radio might one day be put to a final resting spot where it belongs.
I hate high school!
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tardis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: Victoria, BC
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Points: 14378
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 21:21 |
Prog is for musicians only. Those who do not play an instrument and attempt to listen to prog will be hunted down and exterminated. 
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Posted: November 04 2006 at 22:11 |
blbx93 wrote:
Most musicians have a higher appreciation for music. This is why America needs music in school, so the garbage on the radio might one day be put to a final resting spot where it belongs.
I hate high school!
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Good idea, but i'd seize power first through a coup d'etat and bring down conglomerates like viacom, mainly viacom, owner of MTV, that is, for my point of view, music's true MURDERER, the true ANTICHRIST.....
And after that, let's teach people some music.... the thing is, we got to get rid of MTV and Hiphop and songs about bithces, cars and golden teeth first..... and the second problem: ALL the subculture surrounding it! (movies, tv shows, etc...)
Let's face it, it's a lost cause.....With the way America's religion (MONEY) operates, whatever makes millions is good, ergo, even if we teach music, what we'll have is thousands of hiphop producers.... and maybe 5 rock musicians, maybe 3 jazz, maybe 1 classical performer....and maybe a prog-rock musician..... But it's not possible.....
So we better enjoy good music while it lasts.... luckily, cd's last a LOONg time..... so we better appreciate music wheter we know about it or not, for its DYING
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