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micky 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
 Posted: June 22 2007 at 04:23 |
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I couldn't agree more  .... we may disagree on additions, but should never lose sight we all see prog differently. |
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darkshade
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 04:30 |
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what im still baffled about is why Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams Lifetime, and John Scofield arent on this site under Jazz Rock/Fusion?
o and why is Phish under Prog-related??
makes no sense to me...
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006 Location: LA, CA Status: Offline Points: 7113 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 04:33 |
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Because life...is cruel. Get used to it.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 04:35 |
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o i know life is cruel. thats why i come to this site. to escape it. and dammit thered be no fusion without the man who started it all (not Zappa though, folks)
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 06:58 |
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When I visited Prog Archives for the first time in January 2004, I was very pleased with the homepage: you had an excellent view on new and interesting prog bands and you could easily switch to more band information. Now, 3,5 years later, the situation is different: the homepage is flooded by lots of non-prog reviews and a review disappears quickly from the homepage because of the huge amount of reviews that are offered to the homepage. And let's not forget that Prog Archives is a commercial site, I notice a huge increasement of adds in comparison with 3 years ago, due to the more 'non-prog friendly musical direction' of Prog Archives, more and more non-prog fans have discovered this site and enjoy reading about bands like Tool and Muse. I think that within a few years the non-prog bands will outnumber the prog bands
 ...
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 08:02 |
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hahaha... didn't you have just get back from vacation.... Christ! Erik.... I thought I was melodramatic.... There has been one.... ONE .. approved PR addition here in the last few months. As I said earlier.... the sun is still rising.. the earth turns...and this is still a prog site.. and will be a prog site. We control additions, and those we don't... are handled responsibly by the admins. Who gives a hoot if your reviews are knocked off a the main page... I think people here know where to find your reviews... both in the review sections and with your reposting of them in the main forums. Personally I think the collab/ PR reviews should be the only ones displayed on the main page and have suggested it to the admins. Those people.. especially the PR's EARN that position by writing good reviews and should be spotlighted. However as you know. or should know... that idea...went nowhere fast. Bitching about it isn't going to change it. Face it.. people would rather voice the 1000th opinion on some DT album then some album that Hans got new in stock. You know you won't reach everyone... but you know you reach some... and you should appreciate that... I know I've always been thankful to some of the suggestions you made to me in regards to Prog Andaluz. Edited by micky - June 22 2007 at 08:03 |
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20071 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 08:19 |
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We just need to decide if we're a Progressive Rock site (that's progressive with a capital P, a recognised (in some places) genre of music that includes bands such as Yes, Genesis etc) or a progressive (small p) music site, encompassing any type of music that is "progressive" (whatever that means). The latter means we accept music of any genre, jazz, reggae, rap, whatever, as long as it is deemed to be progressive.
It seems obvious to me that the original intention of the site was to be the former so that's generally what we should be working towards. There will always be disputes about some bands as there is no fixed definition of "prog" and the proto-prog and prog-related genres will continue to be controversial. As has been said before, we should be concentrating on adding the 100s of genuine prog bands in the queue and not worrying too much about prog-related.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 22 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4079 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 08:30 |
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It is a commercial website and users should not ignore that. While it gets comfortable to many, I feel it is inappropriate for them to act like they own it. Sure their input matters but is should not be the "be all, end all".
I am EXTREMELY happy other bands that are not full blown Prog are here. Why? It has opened the door to music I never would have known otherwise. This provides a valuable service to all of us. I do believe however that each genre should have its own top 50 or so albums, and not all inclusive as it stands now.
I think Erik should poll this so it could be measured correctly.
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honganji
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2005 Status: Offline Points: 571 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 08:36 |
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Yes, I agree with you.
There are too many non-prog albums' reviews ....
I often think there's no need to add all albums by temporarily prog bands. For example, early Split Enz was surely a prog band. But later they became to play different music from prog. I think PA database need only early works. But this opinion may be too violent. (Even I think so though I said it ...)
 Also "only one album is prog" or "temporarily prog bands / artists" are frequently missed. Miles Davis is the most difficult musician for Prog Archives, I think?! Because lots of music fans take for granted he is the beggest jazz musician in the history. They may wonder why he is a rocker ? But I must say he was entirely a progressive musician, especially between 1969 - 1975.
Tony Williams Lifetime has the same situation. Tony Williams is no doubtly one of the most important jazz drummers. But this group played progressive jazz rock. Organ + guitar + drums. Emregency ! was not jazz what we thought at that time in late 1960s.
I Pooh is an important band. Many PA users think it is entirely different from prog rock. Merely pop rock band ! But they released very good 3 albums for proggers; Parsifal, Un Po'Del Nostro Tempo Migliore, Forse Ancora Poesia. Unfortunately I Pooh is usually missed.
J-Pop singer Nakamori Akina, Italian singer Caterina Casselli, J-Pop singer Shiina Ringo, Spanish singer Miguel Rios, Canadian singer Gino Vannelli, French singer Serge Gainsbourg, etc sometimes popular singers made progressive albums. But they are frequently missed.
It is very difficult to add database. I don't think The Beatles should put on PA. But PA took it for database. I think it is correct even though the band is entirely different from prog in my opinion. What should be omitted, what should be taken. The border is very obscure. If the border is apparently clear, no one would be annoyed.
 I wish many prog albums would be listed in database. But please don't add apparently non-prog albums. It is very shocking for me than the denial of my submission of Sound Horizon.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 08:55 |
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some feedback on that .... from my understanding.. the owner wants everyone to have their say when it comes to reviews and the albums reviewed... and wants the entire discography to be included. He pays for the extra bandwidth to house all that....it's fine with me I guess. No harm no foul. Though I'd do it differently... but ..we don't own the site do we hahhaha. Tony Williams is a band I'd like to see added.... I'm sure it's a simple matter of it not having been done yet. How long did Cobham sit... approved ....before Raffaella added him. As far as Pooh.... that has been under debate by the RPI team... was rejected initially but I think, having thought about it some more.. and with Andrea C.'s input... I think they should.. and will be added. (edit - As far as Davis....I see there being a distinction as far as this site between fusion and J-R. J-R is in... fusion doesn't belong. That is often shadowy and I'll stay out of the Davis question ahhahhah) It really is a simple matter than someone else owns the site..... if we enjoy it.. and we do... then we just accept the way it is. We aren't going to change his mind. If we can't accept it... then like others... we'll leave the site and find another site more in tune with what we want in a site. Simple as that.. Edited by micky - June 22 2007 at 09:00 |
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 09:05 |
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I am very glad with the huge feedback until so far
 and the reactions are almost "where opposites meet", the one calls my abovementioned statement too melodramatic, the other agrees completely, this epitomizes the very different views and opinions on the subject of this thread and I am sure we will go through a hell lot of emotion the forthcoming years because of the subjective views and opinons about new additions that border between prog, pop, hardrock and rock, I hope to welcome The Tubes and The Stranglers and THE JIMI HENDRIX EXPERIENCE, "time in on my side  "!
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 09:10 |
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and I am not hahhahah  Haven't we flogged that horse to death already anyway... |
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 09:43 |
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For those of you who want only bands which are strictly prog rock included, you realize of course that that would mean the removal of all the Krautrock and Progressive Electronic bands, as well as most of the RIO/Avant Prog section.
I don't know about you, but I'm not ready to live in a ProgArchives without Tangerine Dream, Amon Düül II, Neu!, Faust, Kraftwerk, Can, Klaus Schulze, Frank Zappa and The Residents. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 10:30 |
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Do you believe adding dubious Prog Bands will chhange this????
Last two years since Prog Related started, many non Prog bands have been added and the Close to the Edge, Foxtrot, DSOTM reviews outnumber more and more the non Prog ones.
You know why?
Because most people who come to Prog Archives, come for Prog music, if we loose identiity we risk loosing what we have achieved.
Iván
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 10:44 |
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Just for the record, and because I see this error here so often, the expression is spelled "hear, hear," as in "listen to this person," not "here here" as in "at this location" -- which would make no sense.
 Great thread, BTW -- carry on!  Edited by Peter - June 22 2007 at 10:45 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006 Location: ibreathehelium Status: Offline Points: 15535 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 10:49 |
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Here, Here!
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 10:53 |
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you can allude the "rock" thing, but it worth in a skeptical way . If directed towards the name, the site is still called Prog Archives (actually Erik himself asked a difference from Prog Archives...) Thing is the progressive standards allows a valorous conception, expansion, a "large" window into its art and its reflection, as to not imply the strictness that it's so feared. In fact, though I payed kind of little attention to this thread, I have absolutely no idea how a change of name triggered great grave seeming discussion such as "is prog rock too strict", "is prog rock too un-allowed", "is prog rock something at all", or have triggered the usual conversations about bands that should be included (with a healthy Prog Related or Prog-imaginary appetite) or even to detonate and wipe off entire sections of already approved and consolidated, certified and well-adapted progressive rock movements. Out of interest, you've mentioned quite few bands that can do rock. Krautrock is a massive psych rock movement, mainly in Germany, expressing the "acid", "experiment", "collapsing", "voidal" and "shattering" nuances. Half of the classic music is 'rock" in a dementia form. Tangerine Dream, from classic to the cheesy recent ambiances, do some "rock" by Froese's guitar work. Neu! is right under rock jam, I just listened to them and am totally impressed by the "rock" in their vein. Amon Duul, when trying out popular music, make "rock" nuances. Yes progressive electronic is tricky under "rock" and the specialists try to not avoid much of the 'rock" possible significance. But otherwise, the definitions state some influences coming from the electronization of kraut movements, of space rock, the Berlin School contains grains of rock and classic such sessions etc. etc. etc. And about RIO and avant, this is a music orientation certified in almost every progressive rock page; how would it be possible to deny its movement importance?  |
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 14 2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 12:20 |
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Oh, people, c'mooooon!!!! This is a lovely debate, rather than a bitter one. I love you all...  Prog-related is not prog. Therefore, we have some non prog-artists here. It's clearly obvious that we have those non-prog artist here for some reason; because their music is somewhat proggy, because they released one or more 100% prog albums, because they're classic rock band with obvious parallels of comparison to prog rock from today's point of view, because the owners know that will attract more people to the web site... This is, to me, more than a web site. This is a library of prog knowledge, the most comprehensive in the world. And I love to think about prog-related category as a section of some additional information about progressive rock in general. It's knowledge. It's simple as that. So, let's add all the bands that deserve to be in a PR category! Let's add them now! Let's add them a whole bunch in one afternoon! Talking Heads, Velvet Underground, Television, XTC, PiL, Black Sabbath, Toto, Bowie, Megadeth, Balanescu Quartet, Strangles, Tubes, Who, Miles Davis, Ultravox, Police, Beach Boys, Byrds, Hendrix, Blind Faith, Cream, System Of A Down, Air, Andreas Wollenweider, Future Sound Of London, Grateful Dead, Enigma... That's 27 bands, just off the top of my head...There's probably twice as more...three times more...four times more...that is...what? 100 bands. What is one hundred bands? Nothing! This web site is listing three thousand bands, with many more waiting for an approval. What will happen than? Nothing!!! Two worst months in the history of the web site will follow, everyone will be reviewing familiar non-prog bands. Just turn off the bloody non-prog reviews from the front page...or locate them on the bottom! And exclude them from the top 100! Problem solved! Will this web site lose credibility? No. Will the entries for full-blown prog bands became less worthy? Of course not! Will this web site remain the best prog web site? Yes. Will the prog rock fans community be widened, and new forum members introduced? Yes! Will this web site gain extra money? Yes. And you are arguing about inclusion of The Who or Cream!? 100 bands more. That is hundreds of pages of knowledge more. And that's not everything. Hundreds of prog bands will be added too, of course. The site will continue to develop. New DT polls will be made. Ronnie will write a new book about prog. People will come and go. Andrea, Igor and co. will continue to add obscure Russian and Italian bands. Sean will review them all. (As for the "ProgRock vs. ProgMusic" and some other issues, in some other post, later, maybe.) |
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist Joined: March 01 2006 Location: San Foca, Friûl Status: Offline Points: 5851 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 12:30 |
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To my warning the category Proto Prog is right. Also because it is useful to understand what there it was before the true Prog and that can be considered Prog (at least for what can be worth). And because not to introduce also the 60's production of Manfred Mann? For how much it pertains the Prog Related... I don't know... I would have used this category for groups like the Asia, Wishbone Ash, ELO, 10cc.. How it is. But also for those groups Classic Metal... We say... Symphonic Metal, those that 7/8 progster on 10 consider Prog Metal. So how it is structured... excused... But it does not please me for nothing. So I am all right with Erik and honganji. |
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: June 22 2007 at 12:32 |
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That's the most sensible thing I've heard all day, Clarke.
Edited by thellama73 - June 22 2007 at 12:32 |
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Should ProgArchives turn into ProgMusicAr
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Slartibartfast wrote: