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JLocke 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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 Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:03 |
 stonebeard wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
1. In America at least, always follow the orders of police officers as long as they're acting how they should and not violating rights (Miranda, search and seizure, etc). If possible, have a way of videotaping the interaction unless it's against the law (in some states it is now).
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Wait, what?
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Videotaping officer interactions (in groups of people, usually with cell phones) is a good way of exposing police brutality. No doubt some people who do this are belligerent and try to provoke the officer into being brutal. Which is why some states have made it illegal (which is hilariously wrong). But if it's unobtrusive recording, only officers who are abusive have anything to worry about, which is why they get abusive--they can't do their job without going all power trip and executing dogs, tazing children, etc. so they go toe to toe with the cameraman. Oops, you just got fired.
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I agree with this completely. I saw a video recently where a team of testosterone-laden he-men cops bust into a guy's home, shoot and kill his dogs, slam him to the floor, shouting in his ear, guns drawn, upsetting his wife and kid, and what is all this excitement about? A single, average-sized bag of weed. That's all they uncovered. So now this guy and his family are traumatized because he liked to chill out with some pot now and again. How and why did the cops come in with that much over-preparation? The man's nosey neighbor embellished and claimed he was running a methlab or pot garden in his home.
Police need to be more cautious and forward-thinking when making decisions like this one. All you have to do is be a little more mindful before you take action, and you won't make as many mistakes as cops these days SEEM to make. Am I wrong in saying that?
I have a relative who is a police officer. He speeds, disobeys traffic signals and texts while he drives, all while not wearing a seatbelt. Now, I've never seen him 'at work', as it were, but I'm not so sure I feel comfortable when policemen abuse their authority-- on or off duty. This relative of mine is a nice, genuine guy, and we get along, but you can't tell me that excuses him from breaking the same laws he enforces on other people. This is the pattern I see time and again with cops, whether they are genuine people or not. I don't know much of anything, but I do know this: the amount of cops who abuse their position is not just a small percentage.
Edited by JLocke - June 27 2010 at 19:08
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:26 |
JLocke wrote:
I agree with this completely. I saw a video recently where a team of testosterone-laden he-men cops bust into a guy's home, shoot and kill his dogs, slam him to the floor, shouting in his ear, guns drawn, upsetting his wife and kid, and what is all this excitement about? A single, average-sized bag of weed. That's all they uncovered. So now this guy and his family are traumatized because he liked to chill out with some pot now and again. How and why did the cops come in with that much over-preparation? The man's nosey neighbor embellished and claimed he was running a methlab or pot garden in his home. |
A terrible offense from the police officers, no doubt. And I don't know if I've said this yet, but I'm for the legalization of marijuana, so I don't support the raid in the first place. But what about the police officers that helped the helpless and stopped the real criminals? They aren't talked about because stories of cops doing their job just don't sell.
| Police need to be more cautious and forward-thinking when making decisions like this one. All you have to do is be a little more mindful before you take action, and you won't make as many mistakes as cops these days SEEM to make. Am I wrong in saying that? |
Not at all.
| I have a relative who is a police officer. He speeds, disobeys traffic signals and texts while he drives, all while not wearing a seatbelt. Now, I've never seen him 'at work', as it were, but I'm not so sure I feel comfortable when policemen abuse their authority-- on or off duty. This relative of mine is a nice, genuine guy, and we get along, but you can't tell me that excuses him from breaking the same laws he enforces on other people. This is the pattern I see time and again with cops, whether they are genuine people or not. I don't know much of anything, but I do know this: the amount of cops who abuse their position is not just a small percentage. |
Your relative isn't representative of all the police. If we are going to make observations based on personal observations, I have a friend who works at a refreshment station overnight and has had many encounters with the cops. According to him, they have all been very nice and genuine people, and has witnessed them stopping crime. He was quite adamant about protesting when we had the mass lay-off of our officers.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32588
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:31 |
It's time to return to the new debate on Prog Archives that has absolutely nothing to do with the original post.
When we last left them...
UndercoverBoy wrote:
Finally someone realizes that the root of most crime is poverty and poor education. Not to get into another argument, though. |
A fellow who can't yet buy cigarettes knows the root of most crime. Fascinating. So poverty and poor eduction is the cause of most crime? Wherefore then, the proliferation of "white collar crime?"
You use the term "most," when you don't know "most." You know, to use an academic phrase, "very little."
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TheClosing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 527
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:31 |
My father is a the chief of police. The majority of officers I've met are upstanding citizens who genuinely want to help people. One of his officer's wife rang 911 on him for pushing her, and he was taken off duty asap. Just like every job there are some bad seeds; however, it's not one job you can get away with goofing off for very long.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17600
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:46 |
Originally posted by UndercoverBoyFinally
someone realizes that the root of most crime is poverty and poor
education. Not to get into another argument, though.
Never have bought that mantra. It doesn't help, for sure. But there are oodles of poor, under-educated people out there who are law abiding, hard working, and proud of it. And as pointed out, plenty of rich upper class crime. The roots of crime IMO come from poor character, personal weakness, and some cultural elements.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:47 |
UndercoverBoy wrote:
JLocke wrote:
I agree with this completely. I saw a video recently where a team of testosterone-laden he-men cops bust into a guy's home, shoot and kill his dogs, slam him to the floor, shouting in his ear, guns drawn, upsetting his wife and kid, and what is all this excitement about? A single, average-sized bag of weed. That's all they uncovered. So now this guy and his family are traumatized because he liked to chill out with some pot now and again. How and why did the cops come in with that much over-preparation? The man's nosey neighbor embellished and claimed he was running a methlab or pot garden in his home. |
A terrible offense from the police officers, no doubt. And I don't know if I've said this yet, but I'm for the legalization of marijuana, so I don't support the raid in the first place. But what about the police officers that helped the helpless and stopped the real criminals? They aren't talked about because stories of cops doing their job just don't sell.
| Police need to be more cautious and forward-thinking when making decisions like this one. All you have to do is be a little more mindful before you take action, and you won't make as many mistakes as cops these days SEEM to make. Am I wrong in saying that? |
Not at all.
| I have a relative who is a police officer. He speeds, disobeys traffic signals and texts while he drives, all while not wearing a seatbelt. Now, I've never seen him 'at work', as it were, but I'm not so sure I feel comfortable when policemen abuse their authority-- on or off duty. This relative of mine is a nice, genuine guy, and we get along, but you can't tell me that excuses him from breaking the same laws he enforces on other people. This is the pattern I see time and again with cops, whether they are genuine people or not. I don't know much of anything, but I do know this: the amount of cops who abuse their position is not just a small percentage. |
Your relative isn't representative of all the police. If we are going to make observations based on personal observations, I have a friend who works at a refreshment station overnight and has had many encounters with the cops. According to him, they have all been very nice and genuine people, and has witnessed them stopping crime. He was quite adamant about protesting when we had the mass lay-off of our officers. |
I'm not saying it's just my relative. But all I can do is speak from experience, okay? And based what I have personally seen, I have yet to meet a male police officer who hasn't acted like an a****le while on duty.
Meanwhile, all the female cops I've seen (not that many around here) seem to be more fair and accurate in their jobs than the men. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but I would much rather run into a female cop than a male one. Not because I think women are less of a threat, or some such nonsense, but because they seem to care about the integrity of their position more.
But that's just what I've seen.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:50 |
Finnforest wrote:
Originally posted by UndercoverBoy
Finally
someone realizes that the root of most crime is poverty and poor
education. Not to get into another argument, though.
Never have bought that mantra. It doesn't help, for sure. But there are oodles of poor, under-educated people out there who are law abiding, hard working, and proud of it. And as pointed out, plenty of rich upper class crime. The roots of crime IMO come from poor character, personal weakness, and some cultural elements.
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. . . unless you're Rob, in which case you believe a talking snake and a smart tree are the root of crime in human beings.
  Just kiddin' ya, Robert.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:59 |
TheClosing wrote:
Finnforest wrote:
The roots of crime IMO come from poor character, personal weakness, and some cultural elements. |
The Perception of right, and wrong is completely different to a man who's starving compared to one who's well fed. |
Bullsh*t. A person's morality isn't dictated by her living conditions.
Edited by JLocke - June 27 2010 at 20:02
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TheClosing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 527
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 19:59 |
Edit: tried to get the quote in there right.
Finnforest wrote:
The roots of crime IMO come from poor character, personal weakness, and some cultural elements. |
The Perception of right, and wrong is completely different to a man who's starving compared to one who's well fed.
JLocke wrote:
Bullsh*t. A person's morality isn't dictated by her living conditions. |
Then you truly know nothing of the matter.
Edited by TheClosing - June 27 2010 at 20:02
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:03 |
TheClosing wrote:
Then you truly know nothing of the matter.
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Do tell. I guess you know it all, right? Yeah, forget these poor people. They're all just a bunch of crooks 'cause they're poor! That makes a lot of sense.
I've known people who have been in pretty dire straights in their lives, and that didn't automatically make them criminals. Do you honestly have such little faith in people that you would make such a broad assumption?
Edited by JLocke - June 27 2010 at 20:05
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17600
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:04 |
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Nonsense. You're really insulting the poor there. I come from very poor family, people that did go to bed hungry many nights. People who shared clothes. They had pride and a strong sense of right and wrong. As did their neighbors in the same boat.
Equating being poor with crime is such a vapid excuse.
Edited by Finnforest - June 27 2010 at 20:05
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TheClosing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 527
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:05 |
If you're starving you'll do plenty of things you thought you'd never be capable of.
Edit: And I'm not insulting a class; merely explaining a fact of human nature.
Edited by TheClosing - June 27 2010 at 20:07
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:08 |
Finnforest wrote:
Nonsense. You're really insulting the poor there. I come from very poor family, people that did go to bed hungry many nights. People who shared clothes. They had pride and a strong sense of right and wrong. As did their neighbors in the same boat.
Equating being poor with crime is such a vapid excuse.
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Exactly. For anybody to equate being poor with being capable of committing a crime is so ignorant and shallow, I honestly cannot believe such a person would be serious. People are better than that, on the whole.
TheClosing wrote:
Edit: And I'm not insulting a class; merely explaining a fact of human nature. |
Yes you are. You are basically saying that because you live in uncomfortable conditions and don't have much money, you are somehow unable to determine what is right and what is wrong. It's absurd.
Edited by JLocke - June 27 2010 at 20:09
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32588
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:17 |
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If money and privilege change who you are morally as a person, then you are still evil.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:20 |
Epignosis wrote:
If money and privilege change who you are morally as a person, then you are still evil.
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TheClosing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 527
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:23 |
Epignosis wrote:
If money and privilege change who you are morally as a person, then you are still evil.
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Sorry to break it to you, but the world isn't as black, and white as they make things out to be in your bible. If you're starving with no means to support yourself then you will steal a loaf of bread to survive if you have to. Life is made up of gray areas. It truly is impossible to judge a man unless you've been in his shoes.
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Finnforest
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Joined: February 03 2007
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Points: 17600
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:25 |
My grandmother used to ride the ass of my Dad and his brothers about doing the right thing, about respect, and about how their poverty was no excuse for not being exceptional people. She taught them to quit worrying about themselves and look for ways to help their neighbors, especially the older ones. Today, we tell the poor they are victims who need "justice."  I just don't know how we got from the simple, common sense people we once were to this nation of whiners.
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TheClosing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 527
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:33 |
Finnforest wrote:
My grandmother used to ride the ass of my Dad and his brothers about doing the right thing, about respect, and about how their poverty was no excuse for not being exceptional people. She taught them to quit worrying about themselves and look for ways to help their neighbors, especially the older ones.
Today, we tell the poor they are victims who need "justice." I just don't know how we got from the simple, common sense people we once were to this nation of whiners.
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You want to see what true poverty looks like?
All your right, and wrongs don't mean a thing to this child. You've had a completely different education on the world than he has. He lives to survive.
Edited by TheClosing - June 27 2010 at 20:37
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:39 |
Finnforest wrote:
Today, we tell the poor they are victims who need "justice." |
Comments like that justify turning a blind eye to society's structural flaws (let alone addressing them).
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
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Posted: June 27 2010 at 20:39 |
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Dude, we're not talking about that (at least I'm not).
I'm talking about the USA in 2010, and our idea of poverty. Not starving kids in Africa or wherever that is.
Perhaps that's why we're arguing here. There is a big difference between what you and I were apparently thinking.
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