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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 11:31
Originally posted by Trial and Error Trial and Error wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Anderson III Anderson III wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I can only agree with Friede. why skip? not only is it like looking at certain parts of a picture only as she said, it is also disrespectful to the artist you are listening to. I NEVER skip!


Then call me disrespectful... I don't respect songs just because, respect has to be earned. And it's not like looking parts of a picture, it's like looking only the photos you like in a photo album. Nothing wrong with that...

I call that a rather lazy attitude. the artist had an intention when putting the track there. I don't know if you reread books sometimes, but provided you do: do you skip chapters? I don't. if a book is worth reading again, it is worth reading it completely. and so it is with an album for me.

If the story works better this way, of course. My image of an album, or a book, may differ considerably from that of the artist. I might still go back and look at the artists complete work at one point or another, but generally I will prefer my interpretation. If that interpretation works better without a certain part 90% of the time, so be it.

All in all, I'd rather leave out one song of ten with listening to nine great ones than spoil my enjoyment of the whole album by the one track, leading to listening to all parts less.
And it's not like anyone would claim they never existed (though I really wish I could with some of Genesis later songs), but that their enjoyment of the whole image is stained by one part. See it this way, if there is an intentional stain on a painting you love otherwise, wouldn't you look somewhere else?

No, why should I? it was left there intentionally, so it is an important part of the picture. You will miss the whole point of it if you don't look there!
Actually I have found that by listening to all songs of an album, even if there is one I don't like it, makes me understand the point of that song better and even appreciate the song after a while. If you always skip it you will never get the chance for that.


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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 11:52
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


No, why should I? it was left there intentionally, so it is an important part of the picture. You will miss the whole point of it if you don't look there!
Actually I have found that by listening to all songs of an album, even if there is one I don't like it, makes me understand the point of that song better and even appreciate the song after a while. If you always skip it you will never get the chance for that.


But some songs are flat out irritating, or boring ones that interrupt the flow of an otherwise great album, like this one I just remembered, the spoken parts and Nauticus on Pain Of Salvation's Be. The spoken parts are just cheesy and Nauticus is a complete bore-fest... just like the ambient parts on Frances The Mute, I used to not skip them but now those albums are familiar and I feel like "I got the point, they've been irritating me for long enough, i don't wanna listen to them anymore".
Artists aren't perfect and they make mistakes too. Some experiments just don't work so there are parts I honestly think ought to have been left out.
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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 12:33
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


No, why should I? it was left there intentionally, so it is an important part of the picture. You will miss the whole point of it if you don't look there!
Actually I have found that by listening to all songs of an album, even if there is one I don't like it, makes me understand the point of that song better and even appreciate the song after a while. If you always skip it you will never get the chance for that.


But some songs are flat out irritating, or boring ones that interrupt the flow of an otherwise great album, like this one I just remembered, the spoken parts and Nauticus on Pain Of Salvation's Be. The spoken parts are just cheesy and Nauticus is a complete bore-fest... just like the ambient parts on Frances The Mute, I used to not skip them but now those albums are familiar and I feel like "I got the point, they've been irritating me for long enough, i don't wanna listen to them anymore".
Artists aren't perfect and they make mistakes too. Some experiments just don't work so there are parts I honestly think ought to have been left out.

But are you sure you would stick to that impression of the song if you listened to it more often? Instead you are taking the easy way out and skip it.


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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I call that a rather lazy attitude. the artist had an intention when putting the track there. I don't know if you reread books sometimes, but provided you do: do you skip chapters? I don't. if a book is worth reading again, it is worth reading it completely. and so it is with an album for me.
are you  one of those listeners who only go for the first movement of Beethoven's 5th? then for you a "best of classic" compilation would be adequate. and if you protest against that, why treat modern artists differently?
as to respect: if you don't respect the artist, why do you listen to him / her / them in the first place?
 

Hi Jean, in this case I disagree, the book comparison is rather weak IMO, because a book is a coherent sequence of events, if you skip one chapter, you loose the central idea of the album, but it also happens.

I'm a Borges fans, specially of his short stories from El Aleph and mainly Ficciones, which is a collection of several stories all independant:

Prólogo
Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
El acercamiento a Almotásim
Pierre Menard, autor del Quijote
Las ruinas circulares
La lotería en Babilonia
Examen de la obra de Herbert Quain
La biblioteca de Babel
El jardín de senderos que se bifurcan
But there's this story "Pierre Menard Autor del Quijote" that I find very intelligent but good for one read, when I read the book, I always skip that short story, because it doesn't affect the concept of the book, being that it's independant from all the rest.

Now in the case of an album, I love SEBTP, but More fool Me makes me feel sick, I hate that track, as a fact it seems out of place in the album.

This is not a Pop fan club where we buy everything and listen everything our favorite artist because we assume that everything they do is perfect, no, I believe we know what we like and buy the albums only if we like them.

Why should I torture myself with More Fool Me if I know I hate that song?

Isn't music a relief from the problems of real life? Or must I listen something I hate for a wrong sense of respect?

I respect their work, mostly from Trespass to W&W, but nobody can ask me to listen Your Own Special Way, because I don't like it.

Cheers
 
Iván
 
 
            
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 12:51
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


No, why should I? it was left there intentionally, so it is an important part of the picture. You will miss the whole point of it if you don't look there!
Actually I have found that by listening to all songs of an album, even if there is one I don't like it, makes me understand the point of that song better and even appreciate the song after a while. If you always skip it you will never get the chance for that.


But some songs are flat out irritating, or boring ones that interrupt the flow of an otherwise great album, like this one I just remembered, the spoken parts and Nauticus on Pain Of Salvation's Be. The spoken parts are just cheesy and Nauticus is a complete bore-fest... just like the ambient parts on Frances The Mute, I used to not skip them but now those albums are familiar and I feel like "I got the point, they've been irritating me for long enough, i don't wanna listen to them anymore".
Artists aren't perfect and they make mistakes too. Some experiments just don't work so there are parts I honestly think ought to have been left out.

But are you sure you would stick to that impression of the song if you listened to it more often? Instead you are taking the easy way out and skip it.


I'm absolutely positive. When I've listened to the album enough to get into the it, andsome parts just stand out as irritating, there's nothing wrong with skipping... because I know i won't enjoy them anyway, and I;m not a masochist so...

I mean come on, this is just tedious.

SleepySleepySleepySleepySleepySleepySleepySleepySleepy

and this is really painful

PinchPinchPinchPinchPinchPinchPinchPinchPinch
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BaldFriede View Drop Down
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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 13:06
Well, I am not an expert on both bands, but I like this stuff better than most other things I have heard of them. It certainly would not make me skip the tracks on one of their albums. I have heard songs which are a lot worse and which I still don't skip. The humour at the end of the first one is corny, but I have heard worse from Zappa. The second actually is funny when you understand German.


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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 13:11
Die Eir von Satan just irritates me for some reason. Can't stand it.

Nauticus is just soooo tedious, it's basically a chant... I used to listen to it, now I just dont have the patience.

The "humor" is actually the intro to the next song which is much better. You should listen to Be Friede, it's a very emotional album and has practically nothing to do with metal. If you thought Nauticus was bearable you'll probably like it.Approve
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 13:12
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by James James wrote:


5. Pain of Salvation - the last track off of Remedy Lane... a terrible terrible love song


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhh. Wacko


Check that again, broskie. LOL


Yes, wrong track... that's their best one.

I meant Second Love.

Beyond the Pale is actually their best.
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Points: 10266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 13:58
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I call that a rather lazy attitude. the artist had an intention when putting the track there. I don't know if you reread books sometimes, but provided you do: do you skip chapters? I don't. if a book is worth reading again, it is worth reading it completely. and so it is with an album for me.
are you  one of those listeners who only go for the first movement of Beethoven's 5th? then for you a "best of classic" compilation would be adequate. and if you protest against that, why treat modern artists differently?
as to respect: if you don't respect the artist, why do you listen to him / her / them in the first place?
 

Hi Jean, in this case I disagree, the book comparison is rather weak IMO, because a book is a coherent sequence of events, if you skip one chapter, you loose the central idea of the album, but it also happens.

I'm a Borges fans, specially of his short stories from El Aleph and mainly Ficciones, which is a collection of several stories all independant:

Prólogo
Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius
El acercamiento a Almotásim
Pierre Menard, autor del Quijote
Las ruinas circulares
La lotería en Babilonia
Examen de la obra de Herbert Quain
La biblioteca de Babel
El jardín de senderos que se bifurcan
But there's this story "Pierre Menard Autor del Quijote" that I find very intelligent but good for one read, when I read the book, I always skip that short story, because it doesn't affect the concept of the book, being that it's independant from all the rest.

Now in the case of an album, I love SEBTP, but More fool Me makes me feel sick, I hate that track, as a fact it seems out of place in the album.

This is not a Pop fan club where we buy everything and listen everything our favorite artist because we assume that everything they do is perfect, no, I believe we know what we like and buy the albums only if we like them.

Why should I torture myself with More Fool Me if I know I hate that song?

Isn't music a relief from the problems of real life? Or must I listen something I hate for a wrong sense of respect?

I respect their work, mostly from Trespass to W&W, but nobody can ask me to listen Your Own Special Way, because I don't like it.

Cheers
 
Iván

Exactly for this reason, that it is NOT a pop fan club, we should listen to all the bits of an album. I probably don't like "More Fool Me" any more than you, but I will go with it nevertheless. Why? Because I feel I owe it to the artist. They wanted the album like that, and I respect that. There are often tracks on albums which I don't like, but nothing at all will make me skip them.  Either I listen to the album as a whole or I won't listen to it at all.
Actor Klaus Kinski once said: "If I were among the spectators of a theatrical play and felt a cough coming, I would rather die than utter this cough". Why did he say that? Because of respect to the artists on stage. It is this same respect that makes me listen to a whole album, even if there are tracks on it which I don't like. The artist wanted it that way, take it or leave it.


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Points: 21342 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:10
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Die Eir von Satan just irritates me for some reason. Can't stand it.
 

I always liked that one (and Message to Harry Manback also LOL).Wink
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:13
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Die Eir von Satan just irritates me for some reason. Can't stand it.
 

I always liked that one (and Message to Harry Manback also LOL).Wink


I love Message, but Die Eir is painful for some reason. The only Tool transition track I bother skipping (well, i turn off 10000 days before Viginti Tres too)
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Points: 21342 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:14
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Die Eir von Satan just irritates me for some reason. Can't stand it.
 

I always liked that one (and Message to Harry Manback also LOL).Wink


I love Message, but Die Eir is painful for some reason. The only Tool transition track I bother skipping (well, i turn off 10000 days before Viginti Tres too)

You'd rather listen to Useful Idiot (which is REALLY pointless)?
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:15
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Die Eir von Satan just irritates me for some reason. Can't stand it.
 

I always liked that one (and Message to Harry Manback also LOL).Wink


I love Message, but Die Eir is painful for some reason. The only Tool transition track I bother skipping (well, i turn off 10000 days before Viginti Tres too)

You'd rather listen to Useful Idiot (which is REALLY pointless)?


At least it's inoffensive and short. Die Eir literally irritates meTongue
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Points: 21342 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:17
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Die Eir von Satan just irritates me for some reason. Can't stand it.
 

I always liked that one (and Message to Harry Manback also LOL).Wink


I love Message, but Die Eir is painful for some reason. The only Tool transition track I bother skipping (well, i turn off 10000 days before Viginti Tres too)

You'd rather listen to Useful Idiot (which is REALLY pointless)?


At least it's inoffensive and short. Die Eir literally irritates meTongue

Funny that it irritates YOU of all people.LOL
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:19
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:


Funny that it irritates YOU of all people.LOL


I know huhLOL That beat is really not chill.
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Points: 21342 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:22
Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:


Funny that it irritates YOU of all people.LOL


I know huhLOL That beat is really not chill.

Since when did the beat for you need to be chill? Goddamn stoners and your need for relaxing music.Wink
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 14:24
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Miracle The Miracle wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:


Funny that it irritates YOU of all people.LOL


I know huhLOL That beat is really not chill.

Since when did the beat for you need to be chill? Goddamn stoners and your need for relaxing music.Wink


Pretty much.ApproveEmbarrassed
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Points: 252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 15:00
I always liked Die Eier von Satan. It is actually funny if you understand it, the applause they earn at 'eine Messerspitze türkisches Haschisch' is funny and the pronunciation, while not perfect, not detrimental*, but I can definitely see why someone wouldn't like it.

*unlike the pronunciation of English some Krautrock bands had

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Trial and Error Trial and Error wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Anderson III Anderson III wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I can only agree with Friede. why skip? not only is it like looking at certain parts of a picture only as she said, it is also disrespectful to the artist you are listening to. I NEVER skip!


Then call me disrespectful... I don't respect songs just because, respect has to be earned. And it's not like looking parts of a picture, it's like looking only the photos you like in a photo album. Nothing wrong with that...

I call that a rather lazy attitude. the artist had an intention when putting the track there. I don't know if you reread books sometimes, but provided you do: do you skip chapters? I don't. if a book is worth reading again, it is worth reading it completely. and so it is with an album for me.

If the story works better this way, of course. My image of an album, or a book, may differ considerably from that of the artist. I might still go back and look at the artists complete work at one point or another, but generally I will prefer my interpretation. If that interpretation works better without a certain part 90% of the time, so be it.

All in all, I'd rather leave out one song of ten with listening to nine great ones than spoil my enjoyment of the whole album by the one track, leading to listening to all parts less.
And it's not like anyone would claim they never existed (though I really wish I could with some of Genesis later songs), but that their enjoyment of the whole image is stained by one part. See it this way, if there is an intentional stain on a painting you love otherwise, wouldn't you look somewhere else?

No, why should I? it was left there intentionally, so it is an important part of the picture. You will miss the whole point of it if you don't look there!
Actually I have found that by listening to all songs of an album, even if there is one I don't like it, makes me understand the point of that song better and even appreciate the song after a while. If you always skip it you will never get the chance for that.

But I'm listening to an album far more than once. So you should really compare it more to the picture you have hanging in one of your rooms. If there is something staining your enjoyment of the picture you will have already spotted it by then. Taking out the easy way seems more economical for me.

Instead of paying respect to the artist by listening to each track, I'd rather pay more respect to my ears and spare them the pain of More Fool Me, or Viginti Tres... or so many more tunes. I skip I Know What I Like or Stairway to Heaven more than half the time, too.
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 15:47
Most albums are a bunch of songs, and many songs feel like a complete universe. Its more relevant to compare an album with a collection of short stories than a chapter in a book. And I would not have a problem with rereading just one or two, or three short stories. Or read most, but skip one or two. I think its healthy to be selective sometimes.  Although I also mainly listen to full albums.



Edited by Rocktopus - February 13 2009 at 06:42
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2009 at 17:15
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


Exactly for this reason, that it is NOT a pop fan club, we should listen to all the bits of an album.
 
 
I see it uin the opposite way, if you visit a POP fan club, they will say everything is perfect, wonderful, extraordinaire, we have a defined taste and we know what we like and what not, if i like I buy and listen if I don't like, i don't, as simple as that.
 
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I probably don't like "More Fool Me" any more than you, but I will go with it nevertheless. Why? Because I feel I owe it to the artist. They wanted the album like that, and I respect that. There are often tracks on albums which I don't like, but nothing at all will make me skip them.  Either I listen to the album as a whole or I won't listen to it at all.
 
We owe to the artist?
 
Probably we owe gratitude for providing us music we love, but the artist also owes the audience who buys their music and pays US$ 150.00 for a ticket, because we are providing them of their living and status of artists, they owe us a high quality product, and if we believe an album or part of it is not a quality product, we won't buy it or stop listening the `part we believe is sub standard quality.

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Actor Klaus Kinski once said: "If I were among the spectators of a theatrical play and felt a cough coming, I would rather die than utter this cough". Why did he say that? Because of respect to the artists on stage. It is this same respect that makes me listen to a whole album, even if there are tracks on it which I don't like. The artist wanted it that way, take it or leave it.
 
That's a different thing, I would never insult an artist or disrespect him wiith annoyinng sounds, if I feel I don't like a concert, I simply leave as i left in Jon Anderson's solo concert and during a show in the Invisible Touch tour.
 
But what I do in my house when listening a product I PAID FOR, that's my decision.
 
And that phrase "The artist wanted it that way, take it or leave it."  is very relative, because there are lots of compilations released by all our favorite artist, exclusively for commercial purpose, and even in the non conceptual albums during the LP era, this albums were recorded to fit the limited lenght of a vinyl, probably left a better song because it was too long for the format..
 
I bought  "The Best of Kansas", but i don't have to listen Fight Fire with Fire or Hold on, because I nbelieve it's material that's not in the level of the band.
 
I assure you that the artist will feel more offended if you don't buy a whole album because of a terrible song than if you skip it but you pay for the album, because he won't be receiving his money.
 
Iván
 
 
            
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