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SteveG 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20617
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 Posted: July 17 2015 at 13:34 |
 dr wu23 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Ok, sorry to break up all this a up, but I'm curious to know how many Christian believers know of the true origins of the Christian faith such as a parallel church in Jerusalem run by Jesus's brother James, the entire esoteric Christian gnostic movement and it's persecution, and the insane debate between Catholic Christians and the Christian Arians who contested if Christ was indeed 'of one substance' with the father. Knowing the entire story casts this religion, like all others, in a different light. |
Some good points you brought up there regarding origins.....and who or what is the authentic 'Church'. Will the real Christianity please stand up?
ps: does this have anything to do with Morse and his mediocre solo albums..?
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Excellent questions, Doc. The 'real Christianity' is what historically inclined persons like myself are trying to find out. As for this having anything to do with Morse and his boring albums, that's perhaps a stretch. But it does keep the discussion from being boring. 
Edited by SteveG - July 17 2015 at 13:41
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 13:49 |
The "infallible" role models
- Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
- Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
- Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
- Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
- Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
- Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
- Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
- Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 13:51 |
^The Church said infallible, Tim. They said nothing about being perfect. 
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:06 |
Okay Steve, explain it to me
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:10 |
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^It's a joke, Tim. Did I explain it clearly enough?
Edited by SteveG - July 17 2015 at 14:13
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:20 |
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not really
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:21 |
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^That figures.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:31 |
I just do not get the joke, that figures because maybe it was not funny.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:33 |
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Whatever, Tim. Are you done now?
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:41 |
Am I done, I could be, I leave you with this... infallibleadjective2. sure, certain, reliable, unbeatable, dependable, trustworthy, foolproof, sure-fire (informal), unfailing She hiton an infallible way of staying sober amid a flood of toasts.sure unreliable, undependable, uncertain, doubtful, dubious, unsure
Note the first word......perfect
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:42 |
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^Ok, are you done now?
I guess it takes wit to interpret humor. My bad.
Edited by SteveG - July 17 2015 at 14:43
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 30 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 284
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:44 |
Summed up, infallibility of the Papacy has to do with the the formation of official doctrine only. Catholics acknowledge the atrocities that the Popes committed. For example, all those terrible acts by Popes would be examples of terrible sins against his belief system of not murdering, doing unto others, etc.
I will say that Pope Honorius I officially allowed some beliefs about Jesus that were later condemned as heresies. Catholics will say he just didn't make a decision on the issue, but when I looked it's pretty clear he said "eh okay."
Here's an article from the positive perspective: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:45 |
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^As an agnostic, I'm quite impressed with Pope Francis. If that means anything.
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 30 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 284
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:46 |
SteveG wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Ok, sorry to break up all this a up, but I'm curious to know how many Christian believers know of the true origins of the Christian faith such as a parallel church in Jerusalem run by Jesus's brother James, the entire esoteric Christian gnostic movement and it's persecution, and the insane debate between Catholic Christians and the Christian Arians who contested if Christ was indeed 'of one substance' with the father. Knowing the entire story casts this religion, like all others, in a different light. |
Some good points you brought up there regarding origins.....and who or what is the authentic 'Church'. Will the real Christianity please stand up?
ps: does this have anything to do with Morse and his mediocre solo albums..?
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Excellent questions, Doc. The 'real Christianity' is what historically inclined persons like myself are trying to find out.As for this having anything to do with Morse and his boring albums, that's perhaps a stretch. But it does keep the discussion from being boring.
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Have you tried...The New Testament? 
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:49 |
SteveG wrote:
^Ok, are you done now?
I guess it takes wit to interpret humor. My bad. |
So you are saying I lack wit rather than admitting your joke was lame. Now that my friend is funny.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:55 |
timothy leary wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Ok, are you done now?
I guess it takes wit to interpret humor. My bad. |
So you are saying I lack wit rather than admitting your joke was lame. Now that my friend is funny.
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Tim, are you done now? I'm tired of this , and I might say something that I certainly won't regret . At least not in this life. I'm not sure if there's another to worry about.
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:55 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">That's the proper way to say it and I very much appreciate that you say it like that.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">My church, the protestant church, also has its black pages and they should be mentioned as well.</span> The Hollywood picture of Luther (from Eric Till) shows him as someone who abhors violence, which is of course falsification of history. A bit of a missed chance, really. A more realistic picture would have been more fruitful for our understanding of the historic development of theology as well as our understanding of history. |
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">Lets be honest, most of the </span>violence<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> in both </span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">churches was a product of a violent era, a time when the plague, the wars, etc created tortured religious leaders who were pawns of the emeperors and princes.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">There were more violent ones like Calvine (Who hated Luther as much as the Pope) or Zwingli, but all of them were manipulated by greedy </span>rulers<span style="line-height: 1.4;">.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">There was a lot of anti-semitism, but lets be honest, the only ones who got real benefit of the expulsion of the jews were kings with great debts who threw the Jews out of their </span>territories<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> to avoid paying what the owed.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">The 1492 edict of expulsion is taught like a religious edict, but the truth was that Isabella and Ferdinand had economic reasons</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span> <blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: medium; line-height: normal;">And we likewise give license and faculty to those said Jews and Jewesses that they be able to export their goods and estates out of these our said kingdoms and lordships by sea or land as long as they do not export gold or silver or coined money or other things prohibited by the laws of our kingdoms, excepting merchandise and things that are not prohibited.</span> <span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', Times, serif; font-size: medium; line-height: normal;">
</span> <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="3"><span style="line-height: normal;">They owed money to the Jewish people, so they expelled them and kept their gold, silver and coins, they gave IOU's that were never paid, avoided paying and blamed the Church</span><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="3"><span style="line-height: normal;">
</span> <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="3"><span style="line-height: normal;">I'm sure that part of the hatred of Luther was caused because he received pressure of the Germanic princes.</span> <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="3"><span style="line-height: normal;">
</span> <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="3"><span style="line-height: normal;">So churches always get the blame, but their leaders were used by greedy rulers.</span> |
Important factors. Yes, it's more complex than you'd think at first sight, and lust for power and greed, banal as they are, are always playing leading roles in history, sadly enough.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:56 |
Friday13th wrote:
SteveG wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Ok, sorry to break up all this a up, but I'm curious to know how many Christian believers know of the true origins of the Christian faith such as a parallel church in Jerusalem run by Jesus's brother James, the entire esoteric Christian gnostic movement and it's persecution, and the insane debate between Catholic Christians and the Christian Arians who contested if Christ was indeed 'of one substance' with the father. Knowing the entire story casts this religion, like all others, in a different light. |
Some good points you brought up there regarding origins.....and who or what is the authentic 'Church'. Will the real Christianity please stand up?
ps: does this have anything to do with Morse and his mediocre solo albums..?
|
Excellent questions, Doc. The 'real Christianity' is what historically inclined persons like myself are trying to find out.As for this having anything to do with Morse and his boring albums, that's perhaps a stretch. But it does keep the discussion from being boring.
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Have you tried...The New Testament? |
Yes. They're not there, either. 
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:57 |
terramystic wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
I wish that the ecumenical path would be taken more often.In my (small) city, as the pastor of the protestant church, I'm head of the city council of churches. That council includes the Roman-Catholic church, the protestant church, the Roman-Catholic ecumenical Focolare movement and an evangelical congregation. Together we come in each others' church services, we do diaconal projects together, we respect each other in each other's traditions. And we learn from each other. |
I miss more of this ecumenical spirit between churches.
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Thank you, terramystic! I'm lucky to be in such a surrounding, I'm well aware.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: July 17 2015 at 14:59 |
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The original church can be found in the book of acts. It was called the Way and the leader was James, not Peter.
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Neal Morse - An Agnostic's View
