The "problem" with prog metal

Trademark wrote:    Children with a true gift at "manipulation" are NOT the ones you see screaming in restaraunts. The ones with the real gift understand instictively that they have to vary their tactics to get the desired result. For me, PM bands don't understand this concept, and if you want to go into comparitive musical analysis on the issue we can do that.     So your point is that progmetal is more honest than regular prog.. We can find points of referrence for comparison. In another thread some time ago you extolled the virtues of Mahler. If you use mahler as a point of reference for greatness, you would soon see where PM falls flat. Find a frame of comparison and let's look at it rationally. How about Bach?

Having spent many a long year earning an undergrad degree and two masters degrees (1.Theory & Composition and 2. History) in music I have to side with Cert on the issue of Prog-metal and form. I have complete (or complete as of 2004 when I gave up trying to really like PM) catalogues of DT, Fates Warning, Aeyreon, Evergrey, Symphony X, POS, LTE, and more I can't remember off the top of my head. I also have dozens of titles by Zep, Sabbath, Judas Priest, AC/DC, Metallica , and yes even some Blue Cheer and more as well. The use of form by the traditional metal bands sof the 60's & 70's is not noticably different from the majority of the prog metal I have heard. Isolated exceptions occur in both camps ans they always will. For my part, you'll need more than an example or two to convince me that Prog-maetal bands are making any innovations in the area of form. On the issue of form as a basic "tendency" (which is how Cert described it) PM fails at stretching the limits of form. Puffed up pop song forms iare, in fact, the order of the day.

Sorry Mike, but one single example does not cause a case for general tendencies to be lost. There are anomallies in all fields of study. Do you want a real musical analysis of this DT piece? You might be surprised at the result. If you want an actual analysis I'd need a MIDI file of the tune so that I can open it in Finale to actually look at the notes and the form in their natural habitat.

And T, Please... The title of this thread invites bashing and yet no one has taken the opportunity to heart. Open a thread with the title "The Problem With Neo" and you wouldn't have to wait 5 posts for the first bash. When you gave your honest opinion of Kaydot you got a similarly heated response from many members. Were you bashing or being disrespectful then? I didn't think so and I thought others over-reacted, just as I see you over-reacting now. IMO You are the one not being respectful and it would appear to go directly against your signature statement. Think things over a bit before you respond to something like this, and then respond with facts that can be verified or at least can be debated, instead of responding with indignant hyperbole.

Those of us who have problems with prog metal have attempted, in what I see as really gentle terms, (and specific musical terms) to explain what those problems are. Cert has a problem with form, which from a musical point of view I must agree with. He sees pushing the boundries of existing forms as being a constituent quality of prog-rock. You unfortunately, made contradictory statements with respect to your understanding (or lack of understanding) in this area. First you invite him to "un-dumb" you and then state you'd rather remain an idiot. Which is it? The former is available if you want it, but no one can rob you of your right to the latter.

For myself, my main problem with PM is, as I stated earlier in the thread, that the players seem to have no sense of when NOT to play. This spoils it for me, the constancy of playing everything they know wears me out long before the record is over. I like a little more open space in my music and the lack of space robs Prog metal of a lot of the emotional impact it might otherwise have. As I said earlier "everything, all the time" takes away the power to affect one's emotions. Children with a true gift at "manipulation" are NOT the ones you see screaming in restaraunts. The ones with the real gift understand instictively that they have to vary their tactics to get the desired result. For me, PM bands don't understand this concept, and if you want to go into comparitive musical analysis on the issue we can do that. We can find points of referrence for comparison. In another thread some time ago you extolled the virtues of Mahler. If you use mahler as a point of reference for greatness, you would soon see where PM falls flat. Find a frame of comparison and let's look at it rationally.

As the list of bands I have sampled tallies in excess of 25 CDs (well over 30 hours of music) I can't accept the "you obviously haven't listened to Prog Metal" argument. I obviously have and I formed my opinion of it's "problems" based on that experience. The fact that my experience and Cert's line up pretty nearly 100% may be coincidence or it may indicate something else; I don't know, but I find it interesting.

Edited by Trademark - March 28 2007 at 17:48

Certif1ed wrote: See, I'm not necessarily right, it's just that it's going to take hard evidence to dispute the existing hard evidence that most Prog Metal is simply pop music with riffs and knobs on.

No, it just takes some common sense. Take an album like Scenes From A Memory for instance ... are you honestly claiming that if you take the "riffs" away and the distorted guitars/aggressive vocals, you'd end up with plain pop? It only takes some imagination to see (hear) that it doesn't work for the overture (track #2) to begin with, so your case is already lost. The track has much more parts than a standard pop track (ABACAB / verse / chorus / bridge) and many of the parts reference each other.

Certif1ed wrote: ^How, exactly does it progress?

it has progressed from heavy metal as a form of rock music (Sabbath, Priest), to heavy metal as a progressive form of rock music (Maiden, Voivod), to heavy metal as a progressive form of heavy metal (Liquid Tension, Indukti).. that's all, and it has no real bearing on "prog rock" as most here understand the term, it is simply another genre that has developed past its original form. On the other hand, pop has remained more or less the same; two to three minute songs with a standard format and vocal. In fact, metal (or progmetal) has grown more over the past ten years than jazz, and the fact that there are still regular metal acts doesn't negate the fact that progressive metal itself has evolved.







Edited by Atavachron - March 28 2007 at 06:09

If the only thing this thread is about is that some don't care for prog metal, then there isn't much to debate, is there. In fact, there is no problem with prog metal, it's rock that progresses. Now listen to some Indukti and enjoy yourself.. or don't

^ sure it is

Certif1ed wrote: Technique does not equal Prog - metal bands throughout the ages have been trying to prove that they are not Blue Cheer (arguably the very first heavy metal band), by continually adding to the arsenal of techniques that makes up the genre. Blue Cheer are so incredibly famous... I'm sure EVERY band that plays metal has only one thing in their minds: "please, don't let my music be taken as a mere copy from Blue Cheer"....It's a sure thing. No, the main problem with Prog Metal is that it pretends to be something it's not - it's too overly pretentious for my tastes.OK... for your tastes...Just let me ask you this... What about other genres of "prog"? Let's take the original prog, the one Yes and all of them played... Wasn't that also "pretending to be something it's not?" ALL rock is... ROCK... born as the simplest of musics, never trying to emulate Academic music or jazz or nothing like that.. But a few bands in the 60-70's suddenly decided to try to make rock something MORE THAN WHAT IT WAS...and hence Prog was born... So why don't "metal-heads" have the right to do the same, in the way they choose? Who said metal HAS to be this way or that way? OK, you said the mighty words, "my tastes", so I shouldn't say anything.... But if it's clear that you don't like prog-metal, why bothering to bash it in the first place? To show us that "our tastes" are inferior or something? You don't like the genre, OK, nothing can argue with that.   When you can hear the "actual" quality of the musicians contrasting with the amount of time they've spend learning smoke and mirrors techniques, it's laughable really, and an abuse of the term "Progressive".The only clear thing is that you have the copyright of the word "progressive"... please, explain it to us. Yes, it's laughable. But keep in mind that when you say that every thing prog-metal bands do is laughable and simplistic, you are calling a LOT of people here stupid, because you're implying they like simple, laughable music... More respect is all I ask. Not that you change your opinion.     The "emotion" is where you perceive it. Couldn't agree more. Personally, the only emotion I get from Prog Metal is disbelief at the pretension. The vocalists, generally, have no sense of melodic purpose - which doesn't mean writing a catchy tune, it means demonstrating an understanding of how the vocal melody can lead and blend in with the music.Well, exactly... and it's obvious you haven't heard much progressive-metal... Death Metal growls don't scare me - I like Napalm Death, and was a huge fan of Venom, Possessed and Bathory when they started out.?????     I won't get started on the keyboards, which are for the most part naff, No man! Start with it! Un-dumb us please....but the thing that annoys me most (apart from "acoustic" passages based on simple riffing) is the incoherence of musical form in Prog Metal.Of course if you want to find complete accordance to musical form (whatever that means), you shouldn't choose prog-metal... not even rock my friend.... But you've decided to see prog-metal from that perspective, so it's your fault you don't find any "coherence to musical form" in prog-metal, as the genre is NOT ABOUT THAT. Or maybe it turns out it is.... Yes, OTHER musical forms.. the ones favored by the CREATORS of prog metal... you know, thank God music is not like a set of rules that you HAVE to follow, so thank GOD there's no need for bands to accomodate always to the "coherence of musical forms blueprint"....   THE BANDS CREATE THE GENRES WITH THEIR MUSIC.... THE GENRES DON'T CREATE THE BANDS NOR THE MUSIC. So if a band somehow goes over a particlaur genre (let's say, regular heavy metal), it's not that the band is doing something wrong or anything, or "pretending to be somthing it's not".... It's just that that's THEIR vision of music world....some idiots like us like it...some more enlightened people don't...   I don't pretend to enter a "knowledge contest" here... maybe you'll crush me with your knowledge of music theory... I just ask.. respect. You know, knowing a lot has nothing to do with having a better taste... it just means that a person has more information in his memory that another one, for whatever reason...   In fact, let's erase the term "good" or "bad" taste... It's an oxymoron almost..... Taste? Who's the higher authority that decided what's "good" taste and what's bad?  It's just... TASTE   I'm looking forward to your next negative prog-metal review...It's obvious that you think metal should be simplistic, music for brutes, as you say, in a patronizing, condescending way, that you like the most savage kind (Napalm Death???? Oh, yes, Scum, "You suffer but why", earth's shortest song at about 9 seconds....) It's like you were saying "that's how metal has to be, crude, cave-men music... Metal can't pretend to be anything but that."...   It's so great to know the reviewer ahead of time. I know that any prog-metal review by you will be an exercize in educating and preaching to the suffering ones. I guess I'll have to skip class...   ...I want to stay an idiot...   My respect goes for you. Just, please, may we have yours?         There are probably a few I've left out - but that should keep the ball rolling a while...

Edited by The T - March 27 2007 at 22:21

No problems with prog metal at all...

I'm not particularly keen on prog metal because I get a little tired of the widdly guitars after a while.