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Topic ClosedTheism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?

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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 15:48
Hurt feelings? Not really. I'm merely complaining about a case of trolling.
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Chris S View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 15:55
After 81 pages, there is definitely gonna be some shrapnel flying aroundSmile This is after all a religious thread.Collateral damage I am afraid.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 17:10
^ Still, I'd prefer the shrapnel coming from those who actually participate in the discussion.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 17:14
Most atheists are trolls.
How come at least half of Christians are just cool, while so many atheists have the need to spread it?
Is it the nature of the belief? Is it because religion is so established in society one has to try to get the atheist message out?

And I still maintain some key word some....atheists are just "edgy" people looking for attention.
But that is not you Mike. Those people would never have the will power to keep this going.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 18:17
I think it makes sense to post this here


And Ebert's piece on Hitch


Edited by KoS - August 14 2010 at 18:17
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 18:58
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Most atheists are trolls.
How come at least half of Christians are just cool, while so many atheists have the need to spread it?


Really? "Most atheists are trolls" - seems like a statement that's pretty difficult to prove. Jusging by this thread, even if you see me and Textbook as trolls, you still have atheists like Dean or The T who certainly qualify as "just cool".

As for the "need to spread it": It's one thread in a forum about progressive rock - it's not like I'm trying to mobilize the masses.

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Is it the nature of the belief? Is it because religion is so established in society one has to try to get the atheist message out?

And I still maintain some key word some....atheists are just "edgy" people looking for attention.
But that is not you Mike. Those people would never have the will power to keep this going.




In my case it's really just an honest fascination with the topic.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 19:01
Originally posted by KoS KoS wrote:

I think it makes sense to post this here


And Ebert's piece on Hitch


That's sad news indeed - ironically I just finished watching the debate between him and his brother.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2010 at 19:36
I don't mean you only Mike. In general. Why do so many Atheists get all intense about it.

Lots of Christians do as well of course, but I know just as many that...well just live. If it comes up or whatever sure, but they don't go around just talking about it all the time.
While most atheists, even if they are cool, logical, sane all that...tend to be more out with it.

I just wonder why.
And yes I'm generalizing people but its easier, since we all know we are individuals...no need to say it.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 02:16
^ I can only speak for myself though, and I'll have to say that in my day to day live Atheism plays a very minor role - I'm certainly not "intense" about it.

But who knows - even around where I live (Germany) there will come a time when people like me will have to stand up and make themselves heard ... IMO this time has come in some other "modern" countries. I don't want to appear to be paranoid or unrealistically negative, but it is relatively easy to undo the progress that we - as a species - made in the last two hundred years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 02:48


Like it or not, but such people exist, and they are in power in some countries. If I lived in Illinois and witnessed such events, I would most certainly try to educate people about Atheism.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 03:31
By the way congadulations (sic) at having a thread which will never answer the question posed. Rawks
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 04:46
Or might the question already have been answered?Wink

A few days ago I watched yet another interesting video (actually a whole series of videos) which presented - among other things - a really good line of reasoning that disproves Christianity. I'll post a summary of it - and a link to the video - later today, so there might be a chance to continue the discussion on topic.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 07:16
I haven't scrolled through the 81 pages of discussion and whatever else in this thread, so the odds of me saying anything new are remote. Nevertheless, there is something I want to articulate.

At some point on page one of this thread, you asked for reasons, besides references to scripture and personal revelations, that support God's existence. And I think this sums up very well something that atheists cannot accept (or maybe in some cases, understand) about believers. The fundamental idea behind religion is faith, which is subject to much attack for its lack of substance by cynics and atheists. But like it or not... that is the basic foundation for a God-fearing person's ideas, and they cannot prove it to you, anymore than you can disprove it for them. 

You've basically asked for theists to remove their two principal grounds for believing when explaining their views, and it's not going to wash. By all means feel dissatisfied with what may appear to you as a set of irrational propositions strung together, but the idea that God is beyond human logic is so central to many faiths, and so no amount of science and reason will overpower their standpoint.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 08:05
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Or might the question already have been answered?Wink

A few days ago I watched yet another interesting video (actually a whole series of videos) which presented - among other things - a really good line of reasoning that disproves Christianity. I'll post a summary of it - and a link to the video - later today, so there might be a chance to continue the discussion on topic.Smile

Mike I don't read every post in this thread, so maybe I'm a bit confused exactly and merging disparate topics into one in my head. However, isn't one of your prime qualms with Christianity the fact that it harbors beliefs which are not falsifiable? If so why do you talk of disproving Christianity?


"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 09:32
Each religion harbors beliefs that are not falsifiable. That's not typically christian. It's strange to prove or disprove religion by scientific methods or way of thinkings.

What I think is very sad is the fact that people almost always talk about atheism or monotheism. At least in our western world I have noticed that one believes in god or does not. It's always about proving one god or disproving him. Nobody talks about the possibilty of many gods, about polytheism though it has as well a right and even good arguments to be regarded in such discussions too.


Edited by Badabec - August 15 2010 at 11:07
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 10:58
Some aspects of Christianity are indeed unfalsifiable, but others aren't. Well, here's the thing in a nutshell:

Many modern, moderate Christians tend to accept Evolution as a scientific fact. This means that they also reject the story of Genesis as a literal account of how the world was created. Specifically, if you accept that we are the result of evolution by natural selection, there can't have been a single pair of humans (Adam and Eve) in the beginning.

So far, so good. Now fast forward to Jesus. What was the whole point of his dying on the cross? The answer: To redeem Adam's sin, when he ate from the tree of wisdom.

Now: If the whole story of Genesis is just a myth and not to be taken literally (which follows from accepting Evolution and the "old earth" theory, which should go without saying since it is required by Evolution), the whole foundation for the relevance of Jesus simply collapses. There is no original sin, and therefore no need for the whole idea of vicarious redemption.

For details I'll refer you to the following two videos, which are episodes 2 and 3 of an ongoing series.

Episode 2: Young Earth


Episode 3: Purpose of Christ



NOTE: I know that most of you (including Iván) would not claim to believe in the young earth theory (Creationism). The key point is really that the purpose of Christ requires the story of Creation to be literally true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 12:11
Thanks for clearing that up. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 12:28
BTW: I wouldn't really describe what I'm doing in the above post as trying to "disprove Christianity". I'm merely trying to show that the concepts that Christianity is built upon are not reconcilable with the scientific facts that we today know about the world. This is all the more important when you also take into account that many moderately religious people - or even the Vatican itself - accept these facts (e.g. old earth, evolution), probably not realizing the devastating implications that I outlined above.

If you watch the rest of the episodes the list of irreconcilable problems goes on, and of course these also apply to Islam and Judaism, since all these are based upon the Abrahamic tradition.

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - August 15 2010 at 13:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 13:06
Yes I agree. Religion irreconcilable with science are one form of religious beliefs I have a problem with. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2010 at 13:23
Christians can believe in evolution. That does not mean they admit the ape evolved into homo sapiens. You can seperate them. They have still not found the missing link.
 
On another note I have known atheists who suddenly become spiritual or request for spiritual guidance when confronted with death. Interesting that they baulk at the final hurdle from their atheist position. This is not a generalization more an observation. And you cannot answer whether you will either Mike when the time comes, because you cannot analyze how you will react when confronted with that situation. Your belief or unbelief is in the " Now" only. I wonder what your take is on that? Atheists doing a U-Turn at the final hurdle?


Edited by Chris S - August 15 2010 at 13:24
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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