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Has The Archives lost it's way?
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Hugh Manatee View Drop Down
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

In fact, I would posit that PROG has lost its way.  

The quality of composition and musicianship, and level of inspiration, seems to be "meh" to me  in 2023.  Only a few artists/bands seem to be carrying the load.  

I do listen to the new stuff, and younger artists, but it mostly sounds derivative to my ears.  There are a few promising bands and musicians on the horizon, but for the most part, I just don't participate. 

Nothing wrong with PA, members report accurately and fairly. 

Prog used to astound, astonish and amaze me.

Now I am far less taken by surprise by music in general.

It's probably more to do with me than the music.
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Prog is meant to be Progressive, and that seems to be lacking in much of today's releases, for me at least, some of the better sounding records have been purposefully retro sounding, Prog Rock isn't progressive anymore, at least.. the records I've heard aren't, but a lot of the progressive stuff tends to come from Progressive Electronic
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Some people been listenin to too much The Flower Kings. Prog is happenin y'all. It's ok to not like stuff that has more metal in it, but come on. There's some great stuff out there. And Wobbler isn't the pinnacle. They're just rehashing in a more authentic way than TFK.

Also, Dream Theater doesn't count as new, and have been on the decline for years to my ears. Plenty more ground-breaking stuff out there that isn't just doing Yes/Genesis/KC/PF again.


Edited by Awesoreno - November 01 2023 at 20:46
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Yeah there's a ton of great new stuff out there.
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Some people been listenin to too much The Flower Kings. Prog is happenin y'all. It's ok to not like stuff that has more metal in it, but come on. There's some great stuff out there. And Wobbler isn't the pinnacle. They're just rehashing in a more authentic way than TFK.

Also, Dream Theater doesn't count as new, and have been on the decline for years to my ears. Plenty more ground-breaking stuff out there that isn't just doing Yes/Genesis/KC/PF again.

If you're talking about me, I don't even like TFK lol
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Quote Some people been listenin to too much The Flower Kings.
I don't think it's a bad thing. I enjoy TFK and listen to them every day lol. As I said, I tend to listen to the music I find appealing. I don't give a fuсk if it's groundbreaking or a total shamelss rehash. Is it really that big of a deal if a band uses a technique or a sound that's more of a 70's thing rather than a superprogressive hypermodern djentmetalcore-trap never hear before technique? No. If it sounds good, it is good! B)
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^I agree, about the 'not caring whether it's experimental or not'

Edited by Frets N Worries - November 01 2023 at 21:19
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Quote The quality of composition and musicianship, and level of inspiration, seems to be "meh" to me  in 2023
In terms of popular music and rap... you're absolutely right.
In terms of prog... I SOOOOOOOO STRONGLY DISAGREE!!!!! The level has stayed the same for a few years and even though you might stumble upon a lot more subpar artists recently, due to the internet streaming algorithms, the good stuff is as good as ever. And retro prog is absolutely fine, as long as the composition, not on the who does it sound like, what is it inspired by, is it retro is it not, but rather on the chords/melody/arrangement/performance level touches my heart.

You're confusing derivative with bad! B)


Edited by Hrychu - November 01 2023 at 21:25
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Go ahead, suggest away.  I'm listening.  


Thanks, but no thanks. I'm a mere mortal LOL
I'll throw Tosin Abasi (Animals as Leaders) out there. Not at all derivative.

As for jazz fusion yeah it's hard to beat Brand X and Goodsall, but Eyeless Owl, FAT, The Aristocrats, The Filibuster Saloon, Mats Öberg, Nova Collective, Panzerballett, Owane, Special Providence, and Plini are decent.

Do you have any music you could share?

Sure!  Fareed Haque was chair of guitar studies at Northern Illinois University, and his projects include Garaj Mahal, Fareed Haque Group, and various solo projects.   He brings variety to the stage, mixing conventional rock instrumentation with Eastern instruments such as tablas, oud and others.  

Here, he's performing with California Guitar Trio, playing the Moog electric guitar.   They are doing a cover of Mahavishnu Orchestra's "Dance of Maya."   Fareed puts the burners on about 2:35 in this clip. 
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Go ahead, suggest away.  I'm listening.  


Thanks, but no thanks. I'm a mere mortal LOL
I'll throw Tosin Abasi (Animals as Leaders) out there. Not at all derivative.

Completely agreed in regards to Tosin, that guy's an absolute monster on guitar. I'd like to give a special mention to Animals as Leaders' album The Joy of Motion, as it so effortlessly blends prog metal, jazz fusion, and electronic music... amazing stuff Big smile
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Animals as Leaders are great but no one talks about them and the last album largely went by unnoticed. Its funny that Amplifier and Dream The Electric Sleep have come and gone this year but no one seems to care about them either. There are actually a lot of great and unique bands out there but that's the problem in a way, its almost too much. Too few people with niche tastes discussing too many bands. I had a listen to 35 Tapes yesterday thanks to the New Releases report thread. That's not derivative is it it? Or is it just not angular and edgy enough? Damned if I know. I get fed up with all the rules supposedlu surrounding what is 'progressive' or isn't. No one actually knows but loads love to pretend they do!
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Animals as Leaders are great but no one talks about them and the last album largely went by unnoticed. Its funny that Amplifier and Dream The Electric Sleep have come and gone this year but no one seems to care about them either. There are actually a lot of great and unique bands out there but that's the problem in a way, its almost too much. Too few people with niche tastes discussing too many bands. I had a listen to 35 Tapes yesterday thanks to the New Releases report thread. That's not derivative is it it? Or is it just not angular and edgy enough? Damned if I know. I get fed up with all the rules supposedlu surrounding what is 'progressive' or isn't. No one actually knows but loads love to pretend they do!

Thanks, Richard!  Let me explain by what I mean as "derivative...." 

With very few exceptions, the bands (I said, bands) discussed on PA are based upon a very old formula of, basically, 6 string guitar, bass guitar, drum kit, keyboardist and vocalist.  This can be mixed around a bit, but the great majority of bands on PA follow this formula.  

Dream Theater?  Check.  Rush?  Uh-huh.  Yes?  You betcha.  And so forth.  I fail to see what is so progressive about this formula being repeated. 

One of the most progressive concerts I've seen in recent times was King Crimson, 26 September 2014, at the Chicago Theater in Chicago.  The stage is shown (before the band came out).  Three drummers, most of whom played other instruments such as a Mellotron app on i-Pad.  Fripp had his usual high-tech electric guitar rig complete with PC, as well as a conventional keyboard of some kind.   Levin played his typical collection of bass guitar and Chapman stick.  This was the set list: 


This pushed convention and boundaries.  First time I saw KC was LTIA show in Chicago, 20 April, 1973.  I've seen every iteration of the band since, and this one was stunning.   RIP Bill Rieflin.  
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Quote pushed convention and boundaries.
This is the kinda approach I'm personally indifferent about. I like conventional stuff. Familiarity speaks to the emotions. :)
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Has The Archives lost it's way?


No, but the discussion about what is or isn't prog was already boring and flogged-to-death 15 years ago.
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Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:


With very few exceptions, the bands (I said, bands) discussed on PA are based upon a very old formula of, basically, 6 string guitar, bass guitar, drum kit, keyboardist and vocalist.  This can be mixed around a bit, but the great majority of bands on PA follow this formula.  


Well, it's even worse. The vast majority of all the music we listen to is based on only 12 notes. How boring! I guess we can stop listening now.Party
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Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Prog used to astound, astonish and amaze me.

Now I am far less taken by surprise by music in general.

It's probably more to do with me than the music.
Everything is more exciting when you are first exposed to it. After years of listening to music, you have acquired a large memory bank of music and any new music will compete with what you already heard. As humans we also change as the years go.

Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

Prog is meant to be Progressive, and that seems to be lacking in much of today's releases, for me at least, some of the better sounding records have been purposefully retro sounding, Prog Rock isn't progressive anymore, at least.. the records I've heard aren't, but a lot of the progressive stuff tends to come from Progressive Electronic
Some aim for the retro sound, but that's not true for the majority. If you listen to the same kind of music as they made in the 70's, of course it won't sound progressive. You have to go beyond what is known and explore other genres. They may not be to your liking, but that's the only option if you want something different.

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

With very few exceptions, the bands (I said, bands) discussed on PA are based upon a very old formula of, basically, 6 string guitar, bass guitar, drum kit, keyboardist and vocalist.  This can be mixed around a bit, but the great majority of bands on PA follow this formula.  

Dream Theater?  Check.  Rush?  Uh-huh.  Yes?  You betcha.  And so forth.  I fail to see what is so progressive about this formula being repeated. 
Not all progressive rock is progressive, that's for sure. The term "progressive" has become a bucket for various sub genres that fit certain styles of music.

Have you explored other genres? For me, the genres -if it they be called such- that has interested me the most after listening to most of the most common genres on PA the last 20 years, is avant-garde, RIO and zeuhl. I feel like that's the genres where they put music that has connections to traditional progressive rock, but is also succeeding in being progressive and not sounding like the early bands at all. These bands also typically make use of a variety of instruments and sounds that you won't hear in music following the formula you presented.

Now and then I check out a Neo, Crossover, Symphonic or whatever album on PA, and it's not as exciting or interesting anymore. It's good music, it's just lost some of the appeal it originally had. Most also follow the formula you complain about. When checking out bands in the Avant/RIO bucket, I have absolutely no idea what I'm getting.

That's the kind of music I would really call progressive contemporary, even if a lot of it bare little resemblance to the defining bands of progressive rock from the 70's, but that's the entire point is it not? To experiment, to progress, to create something entirely new.

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

With very few exceptions, the bands (I said, bands) discussed on PA
This may be part of the problem. The experimental and progressive bands are discussed a lot less in here. I find the members of Progressiveears a lot more inclined towards that kind of music. You can't make a good assessment of what is out there based upon this forum. There are some Avant/RIO, Jazz-Fusion etc. found on the top lists of PA, but it's dominated by genres that follow the formula more closely.

Here's a search on PA limited to Avant/RIO, Eclectic, Jazz/Fusion and Zeuhl from the last 24 years. If all of that sounds derivative I give up. There's still tons of music that doesn't turn up there, but it's a start.
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^This is a brilliant response, Zeph. Bravo!
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Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

Prog is meant to be Progressive, and that seems to be lacking in much of today's releases, for me at least, some of the better sounding records have been purposefully retro sounding, Prog Rock isn't progressive anymore, at least.. the records I've heard aren't, but a lot of the progressive stuff tends to come from Progressive Electronic

Hi,

I think that the addition of bands to the "club" is going downhill. Too many bands are being added, based on their sound, a lot of which is copied from previous things. The "originality" is gone, as if different notes and chords on the guitar made it a special solo ... that is not what "progressive" was all about.

The idea that it isn't "progressive" any more, is something that will make the record companies very happy ... look the fans are too stupid, and we can sell our bands! We still, REFUSE to understand that "progressive" never died, but we continue to post and play, nothing but the well known bands that do not need any more words about them.

As an example, the posting about those three bands from Argentina, is being ignored ... and no one can post anything about it ... and that is just ridiculous, and insane at the same time, then we go about saying the records aren't progressive, and that no one knows progressive anymore ... LOOK IN THE MIRROR at the person saying that ... 

Progressive, and ALL OF THE ARTS never died and went to heaven ... only the folks that didn't have an ear for music anyway, never bothered to listen to something else. And help the record companies continue to "punish" the independents and the ones that have the talent and ability to stand up ... 

What isn't progressive anymore is not the music ... it's the fans! I'm still wondering if the faux-pas witches are now dressing as Switfties for another YES concert! The whole thing is getting just boring and sick!
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Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

...
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

With very few exceptions, the bands (I said, bands) discussed on PA

This may be part of the problem. The experimental and progressive bands are discussed a lot less in here. I find the members of Progressiveears a lot more inclined towards that kind of music. You can't make a good assessment of what is out there based upon this forum. There are some Avant/RIO, Jazz-Fusion etc. found on the top lists of PA, but it's dominated by genres that follow the formula more closely.
...

Hi,

This has been my biggest comment, and thought for a long time, but some folks at PA think it is a comment on what I think of the PA admins. However, I can not say that DamoX is not different and special, since he has for many years posted a lot of music, AND VERY DIFFERENT, from the Japanese quarter ... and Andrea has continually posted Italian material.

It's impossible to make a good assessment, as you stated, about PA, but it is very easy to see how many folks in PA actually listen to different things, other than their top ten ... which is part of the problem. I realize that PA needs the folks and the posts to make ends meet, but the majority of folks not even bothering to listen to something different is a serious issue, but one that not many folks at PA give a damn about ... and another thread about Rush, or JT, or the top 5 (throw up!) ... or who has the greatest solos ... is exactly what the "progressive music" was not about in the first place ... but the admins, and folks in charge of PA would not want someone like me next to them ... because I am the cancer, when I am much more of a philosopher and historian (not a great one!) when it comes to the HISTORY of progressive music, something that too many folks on PA don't give a merde about whatsoever ... and they will never understand that part of the big surge of progressive in the late 60's was STEREO on the VERY INDEPENDENT FM radio stations in America, a dreamsurge that lasted for 10 years before the great corporate RAPE bought all the stations out and turned them all into "classics" which they still are today ... !!!

Until our idea of progressive gets away from the silly description, that is not even "musical", I don't think that this can get any better ... the definition is about the solos, and a format ... something that didn't exist way back when ... and we still don't get it!

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(Someday we will get our ears about that!!! We still think that it is the stupidest thing ever said about music!)
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I think grammar and spelling lost their way in the thread title - aaaaahhh, those homophones (its & it's) - can someone fix that? It bothers me more than the thread premise. LOL

Edited by Cristi - November 02 2023 at 08:44
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