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Progosopher View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 14:28
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

^Fine, I will take some time tomorrow to re-formulate my speech (I can't watch TV, browse the forum and play a game in the same time).

Just one thing: if prog fans have so much "high expectations", I wonder why they don't drop progressive rock in favor of composers such as Xenakis, Scelsi, Stockhausen or Anthony Braxton.
 
Just exploring some ideas, mon ami, and much of that based on a little joke.  Are Proggers really more discriminating than Metalheads?  Perhaps site members can clarify that for us.  This is a forum after all.  I can only truly speak for myself.  Of the composers you mention, I am only familiar with Stockhausen by reputation and the others not at all.  Not all Proggers listen to Classical from early to contemporary times.  Each listener has a different approach and different sets of appreciations and expectations.  I tend to compare Prog music to Classical because one of the aspects of Prog that distinguish it from other forms of Rock is its careful and often studied composition.  In this way it is similar to Classical but it is still Rock.  I also adjust my expectations depending on the genre I am listening to.  A poor Classical composer may be a great Rock musician.  A good rocker may not excel at composing.  I don't expect Joe Satriani to sound like Beethoven, or Yes to sound like Mastodon.  Each has a unique set of standards, but we can say some are higher than others, and I do think good Prog requires higher standards than good Metal.  There is plenty of room for overlap of course.  And no, not all Metal bands are equally image conscious.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 15:40
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

Just exploring some ideas, mon ami, and much of that based on a little joke.  Are Proggers really more discriminating than Metalheads?  Perhaps site members can clarify that for us.  This is a forum after all.


I think prog fans are much less divisive than metal fans.  Look, there is that infamous battle about what is "true" (often spelled "trve") metal among metalheads.  I haven't seen such a debate about "true prog".  Sure, many prog fans value some styles of prog higher than others, but most prog fans, it seems to me, are into prog in general, and do not dismiss anything as "false prog".

(Alas, I may be an exception.  There is music that is often called "prog" which I don't consider prog - but who am I to say that that was "false prog"?  Words mean what they are used for, and there may be more than one meaning of "prog".  Things can be "progressive" in many ways, and even in electronic dance music, there is a notion of "progressive" that has nothing to do with progressive rock.)

Quote I can only truly speak for myself.  Of the composers you mention, I am only familiar with Stockhausen by reputation and the others not at all.  Not all Proggers listen to Classical from early to contemporary times.  Each listener has a different approach and different sets of appreciations and expectations.


Yep.  Stockhausen's influence on prog and on rock avant-gardes in general is IMHO vastly overrated.  Many people say that Krautrock was strongly influenced by Stockhausen, but these two don't really have that much in common.  The Krautrockers were heavily into improvisation; Stockhausen meticulously and often pedantically planned everything.

Quote I tend to compare Prog music to Classical because one of the aspects of Prog that distinguish it from other forms of Rock is its careful and often studied composition.  In this way it is similar to Classical but it is still Rock.


Fair.  Prog is where actual musical composition happens these days.  Most other rock avant-gardes, from Velvet Underground to San Francisco to Krautrock, were more into improvising on minute musical formulae, if not outright noodling on a single chord.  Jazz is similar.  I even dare say that many contemporary academic composers do not really compose in the classical sense; rather they compute music based on series and algorithms, something that can be done (and sometimes is done) on a computer.  Film music is mostly genuinely composed music, but it rarely works without the film.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 16:05
^Thanks for sharing your insightful and wise thoughts, WeepingElf! And very interesting what you point out about Krautrock, a music genre that I have not yet dug into, albeit so praised and so talked about.

Edited by Rick Robson - March 07 2015 at 16:19


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 16:16
But I have to say that I think somehow differently regarding a point of the previous post, to be honest it makes more sense for me that good Prog requires more varied musical tastes than good Metal.

Edited by Rick Robson - March 07 2015 at 16:25


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 16:36
The whole question is a bit of a nonstarter, if you ask me. Prog and metal are not two separate things. These aren't two conflicting genres. I don't know how better to write it than that one is a massive, widespread genre and the other is an applicable style or approach. In my mind, you have the giant Venn diagram of different genres of music, with your rock and metal and jazz and rap and classical (not sure if that's a fair genre, but you get my drift) and so on, and the point where they overlap is where prog comes in. 

I have yet to meet someone that is primarily a fan of metal who doesn't appreciate some form of progressive metal (though many prog fans I've met can't stand prog metal or even metal in general). And I honestly, as a 26 year old dude, do not see anyone thinking that being a metal fan is cool or that being a prog fan is uncool. But I'm from the hipster generation, and we also grew up listening to classic rock--which means we all already know Yes and Genesis and ELP and Jethro Tull, and many of us know quality songs of theirs from the 70s. It's not weird to us.

I dunno. I haven't really seen anything new since I started into listening to prog over a decade ago. I mean, it's all been new to me, but I can't think of anything that appeared in the last twelve or so years that introduced something new in the prog scene. That sounds more cynical than I mean. All I mean is that it's all there and has always been there, so I haven't watched anything change away from what I wanted it to be. And I think that's a big difference between guys like me and the previous generation. There is no "golden era" where everything was going just right! There is just fifty years or so of the most varied and entertaining music ever invented laying around no further than a CD store (okay, there's the nostalgia) or amazon or something. I haven't watched as a movement as a whole I've been attached to has grown or changed or been subverted or enlightened or whatever. I wonder if that's part of it.

I got up and did some house cleaning partway through my response. It's entirely possible I forgot what I was writing about and wrote something non sequiter. Oh well. I'm gonna submit without double checking, just because I don't want any of my work to go to waste.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 19:29
Originally posted by WeepingElf<br>I think prog fans are much less divisive than metal fans.  Look, there is that infamous battle about what is true (often spelled trve) metal among metalheads.  I haven't seen such a debate about true prog.  Sure, many prog fans value some styles of prog higher than others, but most prog fans, it seems to me, are into prog <em>in general</em>, and do not dismiss anything as false prog.<br><br>(Alas, I may be an exception.  There is music that is often called prog which I don't consider prog - but who am I to say that that was false prog?  Words mean what they are used for, and there may be more than one meaning of prog.  Things can be progressive in many ways, and even in electronic dance music, there is a notion of progressive that has nothing to do with progressive rock.)<br><br>[/QUOTE WeepingElf
I think prog fans are much less divisive than metal fans.  Look, there is that infamous battle about what is true (often spelled trve) metal among metalheads.  I haven't seen such a debate about true prog.  Sure, many prog fans value some styles of prog higher than others, but most prog fans, it seems to me, are into prog in general, and do not dismiss anything as false prog.

(Alas, I may be an exception.  There is music that is often called prog which I don't consider prog - but who am I to say that that was false prog?  Words mean what they are used for, and there may be more than one meaning of prog.  Things can be progressive in many ways, and even in electronic dance music, there is a notion of progressive that has nothing to do with progressive rock.)

[/QUOTE wrote:


 
But we do debate what Prog is. Wink
 
Thanks for the reply!
 
But we do debate what Prog is. Wink
 
Thanks for the reply!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 09:31
Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

...
I think prog fans are much less divisive than metal fans....
 
I would probably re-word this. Metal, today, is/was not something completely different and loud ... what became known as "progressive" was not mainstream and it was extremely different from the best selling stuff. By comparison, "metal" is "recognizeable", and a lot of the things that we call "progressive" were not exactly VISIBLE around the other stuff. Folks had no idea what Soft Machine was doing, either!
 
Prog/Progressive didn't succeed because the media in the world is about sales and top ten only. They only support the money they can make off it. The rest is just talk.
 
SOAP BOX DEPT:
i really wish that some folks would realize that yesterday -- 40 years ago -- things were not the same as today to make these simplistic comparisons! Just only yesterday we didn't have cars ... we had carriages! And in London in 1910 they were making jokes that women would never drive because they do not have the strength to depress a clutch pedal ... (that doesn't even exist today with automatics!) ... or thomen were not smart enough to even vote! .... In the end these questions are just showing how un-studied it really is. That same person is not asking why we don't think that baroque crap is not being played or loved by fans, today and they are buying death metal instead! Such insolence, hey?   Times, music, anything ... it has all changed ... and you need to look at the time they came up ... because it is not the same as TODAY ... not even close!


Edited by moshkito - March 08 2015 at 09:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 13:46
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

...
I think prog fans are much less divisive than metal fans....
 
I would probably re-word this. Metal, today, is/was not something completely different and loud ... what became known as "progressive" was not mainstream and it was extremely different from the best selling stuff. By comparison, "metal" is "recognizeable", and a lot of the things that we call "progressive" were not exactly VISIBLE around the other stuff. Folks had no idea what Soft Machine was doing, either!
 
Prog/Progressive didn't succeed because the media in the world is about sales and top ten only. They only support the money they can make off it. The rest is just talk.
 
SOAP BOX DEPT:
i really wish that some folks would realize that yesterday -- 40 years ago -- things were not the same as today to make these simplistic comparisons! Just only yesterday we didn't have cars ... we had carriages! And in London in 1910 they were making jokes that women would never drive because they do not have the strength to depress a clutch pedal ... (that doesn't even exist today with automatics!) ... or thomen were not smart enough to even vote! .... In the end these questions are just showing how un-studied it really is. That same person is not asking why we don't think that baroque crap is not being played or loved by fans, today and they are buying death metal instead! Such insolence, hey?   Times, music, anything ... it has all changed ... and you need to look at the time they came up ... because it is not the same as TODAY ... not even close!
 
Excellent point in the soap box.  The situation has changed.  In the 70s Black Sabbath was the height of metal, Yes and ELP received major radio airplay, and Rock included Fleetwood Mac and Led Zeppelin.  Digital recording did not exist, John Lennon, Frank Zappa, Keith Moon, and John Bonham were still alive, and Donny and Marie Osmond had a popular television show.  The biggest selling album ever was Frampton Comes Alive at a still respectable 14 million.  Home computers were still a vague idea and nobody under 30 was born yet.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 18:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
SOAP BOX DEPT:
i really wish that some folks would realize that yesterday -- 40 years ago -- things were not the same as today to make these simplistic comparisons! Just only yesterday we didn't have cars ... we had carriages! And in London in 1910 they were making jokes that women would never drive because they do not have the strength to depress a clutch pedal ... (that doesn't even exist today with automatics!) ... or thomen were not smart enough to even vote! .... In the end these questions are just showing how un-studied it really is. That same person is not asking why we don't think that baroque crap is not being played or loved by fans, today and they are buying death metal instead! Such insolence, hey?   Times, music, anything ... it has all changed ... and you need to look at the time they came up ... because it is not the same as TODAY ... not even close!
 
Right on Pedro, interesting matter, and a point here reminded me of a work coleague who has been interchanging some prog in mp3 with me, she also loves rock, prog rock and knows quite a few metal bands, enjoying pretty much some of the more modern ones. But what's the point then? She loves baroque music a lot! - I guess that there is always more people like her than we can imagine, with power to change today's best selling stuff. It's somewhat like saying the social environment can change you, but you also can change it.


Edited by Rick Robson - March 08 2015 at 18:45


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 19:58
This bit of script from "This Is Spinal Tap" spells out my opinion of heavy metal succinctly....

Marty:  Let's talk about your music today...uh...one thing that puzzles me
        ...um...is the make up of your audience seems to be ...uh...
        predominately young boys.

David:  Well it's a sexual thing, really isn't it.  Aside from the 
        identifying the boys do with us there's also a re-reaction to the
        female.....of the female to our music.  How did you put it?

Nigel:  Really they're quite fearful - that's my theory.  They see us on
        stage with tight trousers we've got, you know, armadillos in our
        trousers, I mean it's really quite frightening...

David:  Yeah.

Nigel:  ...the size...and and they, they run screaming.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 20:10
^ LOL
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2015 at 23:01
I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 09:11
Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.
 
ohhh dear ... baroque never had a culture! Romantic never had a culture! Surrealism never had a culture! Dadaism never had a culture! Metal'ism -- I guess, has something that the world has never seen or experienced ...
 
What kind of BS is that?
 
Welcome to the board, btw ... the comment is not meant to give you a scare! But you got to use your noodles!
 
 


Edited by moshkito - March 09 2015 at 09:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 10:24
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.
 
ohhh dear ... baroque never had a culture! Romantic never had a culture! Surrealism never had a culture! Dadaism never had a culture! Metal'ism -- I guess, has something that the world has never seen or experienced ...
 
What kind of BS is that?


Sure, there are those metalheads you can tell they are metalheads by what they look and what they wear; this is more difficult with prog fans, whom you can only tell if they wear a t-shirt with a band logo on it - but then, you must be a prog fan to know the band ;) But the metal audience certainly is wider than those obvious metalheads, and mainstream pop also doesn't have a "subculture" associated with it, and they sell a lot of records ...

Perhaps the low esteem of prog in the general public is due to the fact that it is intellectual, and contemporary leisure culture has a strong anti-intellectual bias: if you are cool, you spend your leisure in the gym, not in the library.  Hence, prog is music for "geeks" and thus uncool.  Sure, classical and modern jazz are intellectual, too, but they have prestige to a much higher degree than prog, so they are OK ...

But frankly, I don't know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 10:39
Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.
 
ohhh dear ... baroque never had a culture! Romantic never had a culture! Surrealism never had a culture! Dadaism never had a culture! Metal'ism -- I guess, has something that the world has never seen or experienced ...
 
What kind of BS is that?


Sure, there are those metalheads you can tell they are metalheads by what they look and what they wear; this is more difficult with prog fans, whom you can only tell if they wear a t-shirt with a band logo on it - but then, you must be a prog fan to know the band ;) But the metal audience certainly is wider than those obvious metalheads, and mainstream pop also doesn't have a "subculture" associated with it, and they sell a lot of records ...

Perhaps the low esteem of prog in the general public is due to the fact that it is intellectual, and contemporary leisure culture has a strong anti-intellectual bias: if you are cool, you spend your leisure in the gym, not in the library.  Hence, prog is music for "geeks" and thus uncool.  Sure, classical and modern jazz are intellectual, too, but they have prestige to a much higher degree than prog, so they are OK ...

But frankly, I don't know.

That all depends on who you ask.

And kids who spend their leisure time in the library are more in line with the soft side of indie rock and their poetic influences, like Joy Division and The Smiths (but not Patti Smith - must be too punk for them).

They don't even listen to The Feelies, let alone any prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 11:08
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Cuz metal doesn't have to be complicated or alienating. 

I more and more see metal as those two descriptions (and don't call me cuz).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 11:29
Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.


I think that's a good observation. Most metal fans know they're metal fans and spend their hard earned cash on paraphernalia and take part in the festivals devoted to metal music. For many it's a lifestyle.
Whereas most prog fans have no idea that the kind of music they listen to is called prog. I certainly didn't until I found this board, neither did my friends until I told them. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 11:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.
 
ohhh dear ... baroque never had a culture! Romantic never had a culture! Surrealism never had a culture! Dadaism never had a culture! Metal'ism -- I guess, has something that the world has never seen or experienced ...
 
What kind of BS is that?
 
Welcome to the board, btw ... the comment is not meant to give you a scare! But you got to use your noodles!
 
 


Just a few questions:
 - How many people from the lower classes were aware of Bach, Purcell or Monteverdi at the times of Baroque? I can believe that Monteverdi's first operas had some success among the "popular classes", but I still have some doubt about the other musical works of these times.
 - Was Surrealism followed by a huge audience (not to talk about the Dada movement)? Did "Un chien andalou" gather thousands of people at the movies?
 - Same for Romantism: how many people in the XIXth century have read Madame de Staël, the young Victor Hugo or Byron? Were these writers connected with the composers of their times?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 13:09

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:


...
 - How many people from the lower classes were aware of Bach, Purcell or Monteverdi at the times of Baroque? I can believe that Monteverdi's first operas had some success among the "popular classes", but I still have some doubt about the other musical works of these times. 
...

There is no way to tell. History books are not detailed enough on these things, and we all have this historical view that is more of an upper class thing than otherwise, although we do know, for example, that the majority of audiences for Shakespeare were not the courts ... and that may have given us the first CLEAR indication that the courts and upper class were becoming less and less the definition of the arts and the like. This is not the case in painting where the church spent years destroying everything, so history in that area is really harsh and one sided!

Likewise, Moliere, who spent most of his life making fun of the upper class ... it would be unlikely that his biggest audiences were the courts and the upper class.

Today, this is different. The sales and commercial development of the popular and public class, have out-numbered the "classical" and these (supposedly) higher elements in music so much, that tomorrow, guess who the new rich and upper class will be? That will change the culture of music and its definitions forever!

We're in the middle of the "public" revolution and in about 30 to 40 more years we might have a better run/knowledge of where these things might go for a few years.

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:


...
 - Was Surrealism followed by a huge audience (not to talk about the Dada movement)? Did "Un chien andalou" gather thousands of people at the movies?
...

Actually it went backwards and the likes of Jean Cocteau helped bring attention to these things backwards because all of a sudden the church was putting them all down ... and that means everyone went to see it. This concept, btw, only ended with the famous film "Deep Throat". Nowadays if the church says anything, everyone laughs and ignores it!

Surrealism, when it hit, came at the worst possible time, but also the best time. Worst because of the massive economic problems and stock market crashes that really created havoc with many economies and that meant no one could exactly afford a book or a movie. The 30's in America are a very interesting time, but also one that shows how most arts sufferent and did not go very far. Weird part is that Surrealism continued, probably because of the European side of it, while the newspaper plays and other American designs were lost in the process, but they, eventually, gave rise to things like Orson Wells!

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:


...
 - Same for Romantism: how many people in the XIXth century have read Madame de Staël, the young Victor Hugo or Byron? Were these writers connected with the composers of their times?

Which is the reason why I always say ... as far as we know ... since those are the only things listed and shown. I taught a class on Gothic Horror and started it with Horace Walpole in the 1750's (Castle of Otranto) ... and by the time I got to 1850, I had already mentioned over 100 books, and get this ... most of them have had a movie taken from them! But if you read a compendium on Romantic Literature it lists Lyricism, Nationalism, Gothic, and maybe one or two others, and then dies ... and the examples are weak and not complete.

Same thing for studying "progressive music" and why I want to take out things that are musical/musician trickery that has nothing to do with the music itself, even though it adds a mood or two ... maybe! Our definition has to be smarter than just ... gotta have keyboards, time changes, and more bs ... which all music has anyway! Ohhh wait ... orchestras did not have keyboards ... no one could afford an organ in a hall, and harpsichords would get buried ... ohhh dang ... that's what all the string instruments were supposed to be!



Edited by moshkito - March 09 2015 at 13:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2015 at 15:41
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Originally posted by Terakonin Terakonin wrote:

I would say that one of the many reasons metal is more successful is because there is a reasonably sized subculture associated with it, and that's something prog doesn't have. It's purely about the music.


I think that's a good observation. Most metal fans know they're metal fans and spend their hard earned cash on paraphernalia and take part in the festivals devoted to metal music. For many it's a lifestyle.


Sure.  There is a notion of "being metal" which goes beyond listening to the music.  There is not much of a notion of "being prog" going beyond listening to the music.

Quote Whereas most prog fans have no idea that the kind of music they listen to is called prog. I certainly didn't until I found this board, neither did my friends until I told them. Wink


Huh?  Most prog bands are unknown to people who aren't aware of "prog".  There may be some Pink Floyd fans who aren't aware of "prog", and there may have been some Marillion fans in the 80s who weren't aware of "prog", but these days, most prog fans do have an idea that the kind of music they listen to is called "prog".  But this may vary by country; I can only speak of Germany here.


Edited by WeepingElf - March 09 2015 at 15:42
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."

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