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Topic ClosedWhy did Roger Waters never get beyond The Wall?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2015 at 22:34
Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

I still think "The Endless River" has been the best Pink Floyd album without Roger Waters, and I'd even put it above "Animals" and "The Wall".
It does seem Roger's writing dried up. "The Pros And Cons of Hitch-hiking" was also demoed around the time he'd demoed The Wall, so that's both late 70's.
"Radio Kaos" had a germ of a good idea but it was let down by no real musical ideas and terrible writing.
"Amused To Death" was a return to form though. But then Roger just... Drifted off. 
I haven't heard his opera, not really an opera person. And although his recent tour of "The Wall" was successful, it's still material from the late 70's. 
I'm hoping when he finally gets around to releasing "Homeland" it'll show there's life beyond "The Wall".

But what Pink Floyd really needed was a manager to point out how well they worked together, and how the band was bigger than the four of them. So that meant Roger winding himself back in a bit and David being a bit more open to ideas.
The fact they didn't rally round and help Rick Wright when he was having problems is quite sad. He deserved better than to be frozen out. 
I'm not expecting Pink Floyd to become all touchy-feely. Frankly, that would be terrifying!
But they could have done more.

Where's a music based Jeremy Kyle series when you need one! Tongue


Well, I believe David did a lot to help out Rick... just perhaps he was a bit late. For some reason he didn't during the time of The Wall (though we don't really know that, do we? We only know that Waters made hell with him and fired him, why Gilmour didn't or couldn't stop it, we don't know), but then he got Wright back on his feet for A Momentary Lapse of Reason. How much of it was for marketing and how much was for friendship, we don't know either, but Gilmour strikes me like a person who does cares for his friends... Rick was actually barely present on Momentary Lapse, as I understand it, but on the tour he did come back, and he was again working nicely for The Division Bell. And even if Wright still had doubts about himself, David did invite him for the semi-acoustic shows he did (releases on David Gilmour on Concert), and then for the tour of On An Island, in which I believe Rick was actually surprised at the reactions the public showed for him. I believe Gilmour had him on tour to help him out (of course, so that Rick would help Gilmour out, too).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 22:36
Waters' solo output turned deeply acerbic and is so intensely political he gives people a lot to disagree with, especially as he descended into what a lot of people consider intense antisemitism. I think Pros and Cons flew over too many people's heads to be highly successful, and Radio KAOS suffered from some dodgy ideas coupled with some poor timing as the wall fell and nuclear threats no longer seemed so immediate. Amused to Death is, IMHO, by far his best solo effort, but he exudes a level of anger and complaint that doesn't exactly attract people. Plus, the presentation turns muddy during the last few tracks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 23:10
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

I still think "The Endless River" has been the best Pink Floyd album without Roger Waters, and I'd even put it above "Animals" and "The Wall".
It does seem Roger's writing dried up. "The Pros And Cons of Hitch-hiking" was also demoed around the time he'd demoed The Wall, so that's both late 70's.
"Radio Kaos" had a germ of a good idea but it was let down by no real musical ideas and terrible writing.
"Amused To Death" was a return to form though. But then Roger just... Drifted off. 
I haven't heard his opera, not really an opera person. And although his recent tour of "The Wall" was successful, it's still material from the late 70's. 
I'm hoping when he finally gets around to releasing "Homeland" it'll show there's life beyond "The Wall".

But what Pink Floyd really needed was a manager to point out how well they worked together, and how the band was bigger than the four of them. So that meant Roger winding himself back in a bit and David being a bit more open to ideas.
The fact they didn't rally round and help Rick Wright when he was having problems is quite sad. He deserved better than to be frozen out. 
I'm not expecting Pink Floyd to become all touchy-feely. Frankly, that would be terrifying!
But they could have done more.

Where's a music based Jeremy Kyle series when you need one! Tongue


Well, I believe David did a lot to help out Rick... just perhaps he was a bit late. For some reason he didn't during the time of The Wall (though we don't really know that, do we? We only know that Waters made hell with him and fired him, why Gilmour didn't or couldn't stop it, we don't know), but then he got Wright back on his feet for A Momentary Lapse of Reason. How much of it was for marketing and how much was for friendship, we don't know either, but Gilmour strikes me like a person who does cares for his friends... Rick was actually barely present on Momentary Lapse, as I understand it, but on the tour he did come back, and he was again working nicely for The Division Bell. And even if Wright still had doubts about himself, David did invite him for the semi-acoustic shows he did (releases on David Gilmour on Concert), and then for the tour of On An Island, in which I believe Rick was actually surprised at the reactions the public showed for him. I believe Gilmour had him on tour to help him out (of course, so that Rick would help Gilmour out, too).
The only lyrical track is sad to be honest one really misses Waters and it also feels unfinished, anyway I am so happy they finally released another album thus good or bad, I'll take it Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 23:13
Waters went beyond the wall into the final cut (last Waters Floyd Album) and here is an example: Pink Floyd Final Cut (6) - The Gunner's Dream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIJN6WWf3Rg&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw&index=82
Heart
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 03 2015 at 23:18
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Waters went beyond the wall into the final cut (last Waters Floyd Album) and here is an example: Pink Floyd Final Cut (6) - The Gunner's Dream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIJN6WWf3Rg&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw&index=82x
Heart
listen to the most perfect crescendo at 2.11 vocals added and continued by the saxophone xxxx
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 04:06
Waters: Why did I fire Rick? Because he was not prepared to cooperate in making the record. (Wearily) What actually happened was The Wall was the first album where we didn't divide the production credit between everybody in the band. At the beginning of the process, when I said I was going to bring Bob Ezrin in and he was going to get paid, I said, "I'm going to produce the record as well, so is Dave, so we're going to get paid as well, but Nick, you don't actually do any record production, and Rick, neither do you. So you're not going to get paid." Nick said fair enough, but Rick said, "No, I produce the records just as much as you do." So we agreed we would start making the record and we would see. But who would be the arbiter? We all agreed on Ezrin. 

So Rick sat in the studio -he would arrive exactly on time, which was very unusual, and stay to the bitter end every night. One day Ezrin said to me - he was slightly irked by this brooding presence very occasionally going "I don't like that" - "Why's Rick here again?" I said, "Don't you get it? He's putting in the time to prove he's a record producer. You talk to him about it." So he did. After that Rick never came to another session, unless he was directly asked to do keyboard tracks. And he became almost incapable of playing any keyboards anyway. It was a nightmare. I think that was the beginning of the end. 
But in the end of the end, since you ask, we had agreed to deliver the album at the beginning of October and we took a break in August to go on holiday. I sat down with a bunch of sheet music and paper and wrote out all the songs and what was needed and made up a schedule, and it became clear to me that we couldn't get it finished in the time available. So I called Ezrin, "Would you be prepared to start a week earlier on the keyboard parts with Rick in Los Angeles?" Eventually he went, "All right. Thanks, pal," -because of the idea of doing keyboard tracks with Rick. I said, "Look, you can get another keyboard player in as well in case it's stuff he can't handle, but if you get all that keyboard overdubbing done before the rest of us arrive we can just about make the end of the schedule." 
A couple of days later I got a call from O'Rourke. I said, "Did you speak to Rick?" "Yeah. He said, 'Tell Roger to f**k off.'" Right, that's it. Here I was doing all this work and Rick had been doing nothing for months and I got "f**k off." I spoke to Dave and Nick and said, "I can't work with this guy, he's impossible," and they both went, "Yeah, he is." 
Anyway, it was agreed by everybody. In order not to get a long drawn-out thing I made the suggestion that O'Rourke gave to Rick: either you can have a long battle or you can agree to this, and the 'this' was you finish making the album, keep your full share of the album, but at the end of it you leave quietly. Rick agreed. So the idea of the big bad Roger suddenly getting rid of Rick for no reason at all on his own is nonsense.

Gilmour: (Sigh) I did not go along with it. I went out to dinner with Rick after Roger had said this to him and said if he wanted to stay in the band I would support him in that. I did point out to Rick that he hadn't contributed anything of any value whatsoever to the album and that I was not over-happy with him myself - he did very very little; an awful lot of the keyboard parts are done by me, Roger, Bob Ezrin, Michael Kamen, Freddie Mandell - but his position in the band to me was sacrosanct. My view, then and now is, if people didn't like the way it was going it was their option to leave. I didn't consider that it was their option to throw people out.

Waters: I had a meeting with Dave in my garden in the South of France at which Dave said, "Let's get rid of Nick too." I bet he doesn't remember that. How inconvenient would that be? I went "Ooh, Dave, Nick's my friend. Steady!"


http://www.pinkfloydz.com/artmojodec99thewall.htm

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 11:56
Maybe because Waters thought that his fellow bandmates were lesser than him? The Final Cut was basically just a solo album.
http://fryingpanmedia.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 20:42
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

With Pink Floyd you still have Gilmour's brilliant guitar work.
 
Beyond Gilmour's guitar (this being a big reason I preferred Gilmour post-Wall over Waters), I think it was also that David balanced Roger's eccentricities. Waters was the more manic and shrieking voice, whereas Gilmour has the more calm, mellifluous vocals -- this no better displayed than in the dual vocals of "Comfortably Numb" and "Dogs".
 
Gilmour once referred to himself as "a fatalist, but a happy fatalist", and I think this comes across in Floyd post-Waters. There is hope and at least a search for happiness, whereas Waters remains forever cynical, forever negative: no balance.
Cooee! Roger Waters albums Amused to death had Jeff Beck and Pros and cons of hitchhiking had Eric Clapton!
 
The Dark Elf Hug help please Smile 
 
oh wait! No balance you said? To the naughty corner for you! Pinch


Edited by Kati - July 04 2015 at 20:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 20:43
Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Maybe because Waters thought that his fellow bandmates were lesser than him? The Final Cut was basically just a solo album.
Final cut was brilliant and fact is after Waters left, their last two albums were not nearly as good.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 20:52
A quick reminder just in case anyone thinks Clapton is too fluffy, here is Roger Waters with a track from Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking, Clapton starts and sensitively kills it from 1.25 min here on this track awww... : Roger Waters - 5.06 (Every Stranger´s Eyes) (Official Video with lyrics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgymnUs-OsU&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw&index=6
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 23:24
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

I still think "The Endless River" has been the best Pink Floyd album without Roger Waters, and I'd even put it above "Animals" and "The Wall".
It does seem Roger's writing dried up. "The Pros And Cons of Hitch-hiking" was also demoed around the time he'd demoed The Wall, so that's both late 70's.
"Radio Kaos" had a germ of a good idea but it was let down by no real musical ideas and terrible writing.
"Amused To Death" was a return to form though. But then Roger just... Drifted off. 
I haven't heard his opera, not really an opera person. And although his recent tour of "The Wall" was successful, it's still material from the late 70's. 
I'm hoping when he finally gets around to releasing "Homeland" it'll show there's life beyond "The Wall".

But what Pink Floyd really needed was a manager to point out how well they worked together, and how the band was bigger than the four of them. So that meant Roger winding himself back in a bit and David being a bit more open to ideas.
The fact they didn't rally round and help Rick Wright when he was having problems is quite sad. He deserved better than to be frozen out. 
I'm not expecting Pink Floyd to become all touchy-feely. Frankly, that would be terrifying!
But they could have done more.

Where's a music based Jeremy Kyle series when you need one! Tongue


Well, I believe David did a lot to help out Rick... just perhaps he was a bit late. For some reason he didn't during the time of The Wall (though we don't really know that, do we? We only know that Waters made hell with him and fired him, why Gilmour didn't or couldn't stop it, we don't know), but then he got Wright back on his feet for A Momentary Lapse of Reason. How much of it was for marketing and how much was for friendship, we don't know either, but Gilmour strikes me like a person who does cares for his friends... Rick was actually barely present on Momentary Lapse, as I understand it, but on the tour he did come back, and he was again working nicely for The Division Bell. And even if Wright still had doubts about himself, David did invite him for the semi-acoustic shows he did (releases on David Gilmour on Concert), and then for the tour of On An Island, in which I believe Rick was actually surprised at the reactions the public showed for him. I believe Gilmour had him on tour to help him out (of course, so that Rick would help Gilmour out, too).

The only lyrical track is sad to be honest one really misses Waters and it also feels unfinished, anyway I am so happy they finally released another album thus good or bad, I'll take it Wink


Indeed Louder than Words is really missing some better lyrics... and music overall. Also, I'm glad they did release that last album, and despite that last song (and the one with the sax that I didn't really like very much either), I found the album really good and I enjoy it a lot.

Edited by Dellinger - July 05 2015 at 22:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 23:28
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:


Waters went beyond the wall into the final cut (last Waters Floyd Album) and here is an example: Pink Floyd Final Cut (6) - The Gunner's Dream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIJN6WWf3Rg&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw&index=82x
Heart
listen to the most perfect crescendo at 2.11 vocals added and continued by the saxophone xxxx


I do like The Final Cut (I mean, I do like just about every Pink Floyd album), but The Gunners Dream was never a favourite of mine on that album. I have read about the efect of the vocals continued by the sax, but I never thought it sounded so great... perhaps because it's very easy to distinguish when the sax starts and when the vocals end. When I've read this argument, I always think about the song Sheep, in which something very similar happens with the vocals and the synth... but in this case I do have a very hard time to distinguish the moment in which the vocals end, and they do seem to morph into the synths, and in this case I do love the effect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 23:31
Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

<strong style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: small; line-height: normal;">Waters:<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: small; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 204;"> </span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: small; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 204;">Why did I fire Rick? Because he was not prepared to cooperate in making the record. (Wearily) What actually happened was The Wall was the first album where we didn't divide the production credit between everybody in the band. At the beginning of the process, when I said I was going to bring Bob Ezrin in and he was going to get paid, I said, "I'm going to produce the record as well, so is Dave, so we're going to get paid as well, but Nick, you don't actually do any record production, and Rick, neither do you. So you're not going to get paid." Nick said fair enough, but Rick said, "No, I produce the records just as much as you do." So we agreed we would start making the record and we would see. But who would be the arbiter? We all agreed on Ezrin.</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: small; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 204;"> </span><p ="style39 style40" style="font-size: small; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 204;">So Rick sat in the studio -he would arrive exactly on time, which was very unusual, and stay to the bitter end every night. One day Ezrin said to me - he was slightly irked by this brooding presence very occasionally going "I don't like that" - "Why's Rick here again?" I said, "Don't you get it? He's putting in the time to prove he's a record producer. You talk to him about it." So he did. After that Rick never came to another session, unless he was directly asked to do keyboard tracks. And he became almost incapable of playing any keyboards anyway. It was a nightmare. I think that was the beginning of the end. 
But in the end of the end, since you ask, we had agreed to deliver the album at the beginning of October and we took a break in August to go on holiday. I sat down with a bunch of sheet music and paper and wrote out all the songs and what was needed and made up a schedule, and it became clear to me that we couldn't get it finished in the time available. So I called Ezrin, "Would you be prepared to start a week earlier on the keyboard parts with Rick in Los Angeles?" Eventually he went, "All right. Thanks, pal," -because of the idea of doing keyboard tracks with Rick. I said, "Look, you can get another keyboard player in as well in case it's stuff he can't handle, but if you get all that keyboard overdubbing done before the rest of us arrive we can just about make the end of the schedule." 
A couple of days later I got a call from O'Rourke. I said, "Did you speak to Rick?" "Yeah. He said, 'Tell Roger to f**k off.'" Right, that's it. Here I was doing all this work and Rick had been doing nothing for months and I got "f**k off." I spoke to Dave and Nick and said, "I can't work with this guy, he's impossible," and they both went, "Yeah, he is." 
Anyway, it was agreed by everybody. In order not to get a long drawn-out thing I made the suggestion that O'Rourke gave to Rick: either you can have a long battle or you can agree to this, and the 'this' was you finish making the album, keep your full share of the album, but at the end of it you leave quietly. Rick agreed. So the idea of the big bad Roger suddenly getting rid of Rick for no reason at all on his own is nonsense.

<p ="style39 style40" style="font-size: small; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 204;">Gilmour: (Sigh) I did not go along with it. I went out to dinner with Rick after Roger had said this to him and said if he wanted to stay in the band I would support him in that. I did point out to Rick that he hadn't contributed anything of any value whatsoever to the album and that I was not over-happy with him myself - he did very very little; an awful lot of the keyboard parts are done by me, Roger, Bob Ezrin, Michael Kamen, Freddie Mandell - but his position in the band to me was sacrosanct. My view, then and now is, if people didn't like the way it was going it was their option to leave. I didn't consider that it was their option to throw people out.

<p ="style39 style40" style="font-size: small; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 204;">Waters: I had a meeting with Dave in my garden in the South of France at which Dave said, "Let's get rid of Nick too." I bet he doesn't remember that. How inconvenient would that be? I went "Ooh, Dave, Nick's my friend. Steady!"

<p ="style39 style40" style="font-size: small; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-weight: bold; line-height: normal; : rgb255, 255, 204;">

<p ="style39 style40" style=": rgb255, 255, 204;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="line-height: normal;">http://www.pinkfloydz.com/artmojodec99thewall.htm</span>



Very nice, this really helps understand things a bit. Of course, the lack of Rick's contributions to The Wall are perhaps the reason I feel this album is already a step below to the previous Floyd masterpieces (even if that was Rick's own fault). However, I do find it strange the part of Dave saying that they should get rid of Nick too... I would like to think that if it did happen, he was being sarcastic... though I guess we'll never know for sure.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 23:37
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

With Pink Floyd you still have Gilmour's brilliant guitar work.

 
Beyond Gilmour's guitar (this being a big reason I preferred Gilmour post-Wall over Waters), I think it was also that David balanced Roger's eccentricities. Waters was the more manic and shrieking voice, whereas Gilmour has the more calm, mellifluous vocals -- this no better displayed than in the dual vocals of "Comfortably Numb" and "Dogs".
 
Gilmour once referred to himself as "a fatalist, but a happy fatalist", and I think this comes across in Floyd post-Waters. There is hope and at least a search for happiness, whereas Waters remains forever cynical, forever negative: no balance.

Cooee! Roger Waters albums Amused to death had Jeff Beck and Pros and cons of hitchhiking had Eric Clapton!
 
The Dark Elf Hug help please Smile 
 
oh wait! No balance you said? To the naughty corner for you! Pinch



Well, I do agree that Gilmour helped balance the albums from just Roger Waters. And indeed Jeff Beck and Eric Clapton may have worked on Waters albums, but they were in only as session musicians. I wish they had contributed something at least on arrangements. And even so, Gilmour is still my favourite guitar player of the three (even if the other two may be viewed with more awe outside of the prog world). And I read just a little while ago how Waters liked being a solo artist because there was no one to second guess him or tell him to do things otherwise... all session musicians would have to do just as he told them... however, in the end, he did need someone second guessing him and helping him make the music even better.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2015 at 23:40
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Maybe because Waters thought that his fellow bandmates were lesser than him? The Final Cut was basically just a solo album.

Final cut was brilliant and fact is after Waters left, their last two albums were not nearly as good.


Well, this is a matter of taste. Conceptually, indeed The Final Cut is much more brilliant than anything Floyd did without him... but musically... I guess I would rate it about the same as Momentary Lapse of Reason, and sigificantly below Division Bell, and even The Endless River. However, as I said before, that's a matter of taste.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 02:37
When I read the "the big bad Roger" part, for some reason, I couldn't help but picture Waters cloning himself with various facets of his personality during the sessions then, once he was done with them, putting them in that giant meat grinder from The Wall movie.


He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 04:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Everyone , I'm sure, is aware of the break of Roger Waters with Pink Floyd after the album The Final Cut. He was still the same songwriter, but his following solo albums suffered in sales and, generally, were not well received by Floyd fans. Why?
And as for the albums produced by Pink Floyd after Water's departure, they were no longer biting concept pieces with brilliant lyrics. Why were they still so popular and sold in the millions?


my first guess is that Waters is not really as rich as the rest of Floyd, because Floyd was rather broke by the time of the early 80's (when he was ejected by some rather scandalous court decision) ... I mean, he spent years saving the Floyd ship  all alone (Mason was racng his cars, Wright having a nervous breakdown) and Gilmour almost doing diddley/squat), and when he wanted to close the ship, it was still afloat, but not doing great.

However despite two very weak albums (the atrocious AMLOR and the slightly better TDB >> with High Hopes to save it), money started rolling in like mad  (mega-tours sponsored by multi-nationa firms)... And Waters didn't get hus fair share, despite doing all the groundwork in the bad years.

Soooooooo, it's only natural that he scurries and exploits The Wall as much as he can....

But saying he never got beyond the wall is a big travesty of the truth.... but the public won't have much to do with his solo stuff (Amused to Death is brilliant)



BTW: Roger said recently that he's halfway done with his next solo album, foreseen for release  in roughly 18 months.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 04:09
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Maybe because Waters thought that his fellow bandmates were lesser than him? The Final Cut was basically just a solo album.
Final cut was brilliant and fact is after Waters left, their last two albums were not nearly as good.


TFC is not quite as good as anything that came before it (it's an album where organ & piano dominates, as opposed to the synths of Animals & The Wall), but indeed, the atrocious AMLOR is totally unworthy of Floyd and TDB is only saved by Gilmour's one valid track for Floyd and his solo career, since Numb (the intros of AMLOP and TDB are OK, but rip-offs of/from Shine On You CD)







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Kati View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 07:04
to be honest I do not know any album David Gilmour released outside Pink Floyd never interested me to be honest. However, I do know, love and own two albums Roger Waters made after that tho' Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 05 2015 at 14:07
Which one's do you have? With the exception of Syd's stuff, I'm not too familiar with Floyd's solo work, but I have been thinking of picking up Gilmour's self titled debut and Water's Amused To Death.  
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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