Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?

LearsFool wrote: I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard. Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind.

As I said already, Fripp may be wrong or lying here:
Robert Fripp- wanted King Crimson to emulate the Beatles' proclivity for packing many strands of meaning into a song, so that a record could stand up to repeated listening: "The Beatles achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time." Fripp wished Crimson could "achieve entertainment on as many levels as that.

LearsFool wrote: I'd hate to rain on the preceding "Beatles-inspired-Crimson" parade, especially due to the truth within, but ultimately the Beatles weren't the chief influence on Crimson. Obviously Fripp, like many rock artists at the time, was inspired by their knack for experimentation, but what would go into Crimson's sound is instead indebted to an oft forgotten early prog band I've mentioned earlier in the thread: Clouds. Early in Clouds's career, when they were known as 1-2-3, they headlined the Marquee, where Fripp, Wakeman, and Emerson all watched them on multiple occasions. What Fripp was struck by in their sound was their penchant for inspiration from and use of orchestral and jazz styles and melodies, and this kind of composition would be key to early Crimson, easily covering In The Court, In The Wake, and even Lizard. Plus, it is known that when they got their mellotrons, their use of them was in light of Mike Pinder's use of it on The Moody Blues's records, not any of the Fab Four's uses of it. Also, there is no evidence that In The Court was constructed with Sgt. Peppers in mind.

SteveG wrote: ^I think that a Day In The Life is pretty prog but not symphonic. Even if it did feature the famous orchestra crescendos. Weird, huh?

Friday13th wrote: Interesting. I think "Mr. Kite" is squarely in the psychedelic realm. "A Day in the Life" is frightening though, which is something that psychedelic rock just isn't and baroque pop is rarely.

That intro and the way of singing in A Day in the Life is, let's say, "not enough symph" for these ears. 

emigre80 wrote: history nerd wrote: it bloomed out of the zeitgeist   Wow...you really are a history nerd.

Bah, Prog was not and never needed to be invented. It was not the product of some great men with a vision. No, it was formed by many people more or less independently, it bloomed out of the zeitgeist. A time and place where certain ideas and certain influences coalesced into a unique and distinguishable sound... When we look back we might label this or that Prog, but the artists did not set out with such grand and noble intentions. They played the music that the culture of their day created. It should then be no surprise that the Beatles, despite having made their name in earlier trends would be caught up in the spirit of the time. And we should all be happy they did!

Don't take it personally and you'll be fine.

So because Fripp was a fan of St Pepper's that makes it prog? The only argument you should make is based on the music itself. RPI has lots of classical influences, does that make classical music prog rock as well?

Edited by samus88 - July 10 2015 at 10:43

It is interesting, to say the least, that Court of the Crimson King (considered by many as THE prog album), was designed by Fripp, with Sgt Pepper in mind. Sgt Pepper was a massive progression, as far as the general public were concerned and Court was a progression again, with Sgt Pepper firmly in the mind of the composer.

^I think that a Day In The Life is pretty prog but not symphonic. Even if it did feature the famous orchestra crescendos. Weird, huh?