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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2016 at 03:05
Ah-ha! Found me a proper Northern English/Nordic connection. Approve

Previously I had read that "whinney" was derived from an Old English word meaning "thorn" and took that as true, I now believe this is false. 

A Whin or Whynne is a Middle English word that means Gorse or Furze so Whinney-Muir now refers to a gorse moor, which makes a lot more sense than the given translation of thorny moor - gorse moors are common in England and particularly in Yorkshire, which is famous for its moors. "Whin" is of Old Norse origin (hvein) which ties-up with the Northern English connection and there is a pub just outside Wakefield called The Whinney Moor which may have taken its name from the song for all I know but it is a Yorkshire connection at least. 

This still doesn't fix the song in the Medieval of course as the transition from Middle English to Modern English didn't happen over night or across the whole country at the same time so a lot of the [now obsolete words in the] Middle English vocabulary would have persisted for some time, especially in remote areas.


Edited by Dean - September 21 2016 at 03:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2016 at 04:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I have to say I'm not wholly convinced either. 

If ever thou gav'st silver and gold,
Every nighte and alle,
At t' Brig o' Dread thou'lt find foothold,
And Christe receive thy saule.

For the pagan explanation it is believed that the Brig o' Dread is the Bifrost of Nordic mythology and the sliver and gold would be an advance payment for crossing the bridge. A toll by nightly subscription is starting to sound a bit flaky already, in Greek, Roman and thus early Roman catholic christian religions payment for entering the underworld was a one-off payment based on the myth of Charon requiring payment to ferry the dead over the rivers Styx and Acheron, but this is not a Nordic or Germanic tradition. And there is another slight problem with the Bifrost explanation, and that is Heimdallr the Nordic god who guards the bridge, since he doesn't demand payment and as 'the whitest of white' gods he's pretty much unbribable - gold and silver isn't going to get you across the Rainbow Bridge to Aesgard. 

 

Yes, this is my view also. Mentioning and recording the "Brig o' Dread" in the 1600's would have the same effect as the expression "pay the ferryman" or "crossing the river Styx"  in the present day. An archaic phrase or expression doesn't necessarily have to derive from it's original place of origin and carry down through the years, or in this case, the centuries. 
Good show, and quite an interesting discussion.

Edited by SteveG - September 21 2016 at 04:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2016 at 07:06
^ Also that verse doesn't appear in every version of the song, for example The Pentangle version omits both 'silver and gold' verses (as does the Mediæval Bæbes version - however, as much as I admire Katherine Blake's vision for the Bæbes, no one is ever going to hold them up as an example of medieval authenticity).

This also contains the only vaguely Yorkshire dialect bit, which is of course the contracted "the" in 'At t' Brig o' Dread thou'lt find foothold,' but unfortunately that doesn't ring true for me as "the" isn't contracted for any of the other occurrences of "the" - this lack of consistency in the text is puzzling but since that verse appears in some versions and not others there maybe another explanation, for example the version posted on page 3 is a hybrid and the two verses that mention silver and gold are lifted from elsewhere, which is very possible as the use of 'thou'lt' is also inconsistent with the other verses where 'thee' is used instead.

Also, it's not how Yorkshire is generally spoken anyway but a caricatured misconception often used for comedic purposes. Depending on the region of Yorkshire (it's a big county and there isn't one accent or dialect) the "t" is either seldom, if ever sounded (though a silent pause or 'uh' sound may be added) or it is tacked onto the end of the previous word, for example 'down pit' or 'downt pit' so since 'At' already ends in a "t" then the dialect form could more accurately be written as 'At   Brig o' Dread...' <Monty Python fans may recall the Northern Playwright sketch - Graham Chapman never uses the contracted 't'>.



The use of the double-negative ('thou ne'er gav'st nane' -> 'thou never gave none' = 'you gave none' or 'you never gave any') could give an indication of either (medieval) Middle English or at least (early modern) Yorkshire Northern English, but double-negatives were (and still are) commonplace all over England  - Shakespeare uses them and they appear in the King James bible so cannot be used to push the date back further than the late 16th/early 17th century. Rather than being the grammatical error we regard them as today, they were used more as an emphasis - 'no not never not no how' emphatically means 'no' regardless of how many negations there are.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2016 at 13:48
^Kudos on your excellent research into the "rogue verse" of Lyke Wake Dirge. Aside from being a nifty bit of scholarship, it does bring to mind why this type of critical scholarship is not employed in the studies of music histories more often. This is probably the reason why we won't accept some these "historical conclusions", as is the case with Lyke Wake Dirge being a song that predates European Christianity, on face value.
Btw, the two truncated versions of Lyke Wake Dirge were probably a coincidence. It's not unusual for a song of this type of repetitive sounding verses to be edited. The "silver and gold" verse sticks out like a sore thumb and was probably an easy candidate to be tossed away.
 
Again, I really enjoyed your research into this vague, almost unknown, but extremely perplexing song.


Edited by SteveG - September 21 2016 at 13:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2016 at 03:39
^ alas I'm one of those grumpy old men who 'shouts at the telly' when watching popular history and science programmes if a tv historian/scientist/professor makes a conclusive statement based on scant evidence. I'm not someone who takes anything at face value.

Ironically reading Lyall Watson's 'Supernature' as a teenager set me off on a forty year hobby of debunking pseudoscience and that has taught me to view all science with a critical eye (that some would see as cynicism). The double irony is pseudoscience exists because science can be (and should be) questioned yet doesn't survive scrutiny itself.

When history is science (which mostly it is) then every statement is open to scrutiny, especially when those statements deal with conclusions of sociological nature - it would be an exaggeration to say that historians hold up a small pot shard and then deduce a whole social story around it as there is always a wealth of background data and knowledge to support them that we do not get to see (that separates them from the pseudos) - that data creates a context for the shard from where their conclusion was derived... except this isn't the result of deductive reasoning, it's abductive reasoning (post hoc ergo propter hoc) - i.e., it's not the only explanation but it is the most likely explanation.

We are never going to have conclusive proof that Lyke Wake Dirge is medieval or has pagan roots, they are likely explanations but but not necessarily the most likely. The evidence does lean towards a Yorkshire or at least a Northern English origin for the first documented version but that's as far as that goes as it doesn't mean that the song originated there in the first place.


Talking of TV and truncated versions of Lyke Wake Dirge, it is used in this form as the theme tune to BBC's The Living and The Dead tv drama as sung by Howlin' Lord (and not Andrew Bird And Matt Berniger as YouTube claims - though their versions is practically identical). I've yet to find a recorded version of the full song.


Edited by Dean - September 22 2016 at 03:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2016 at 07:03
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Again, I really enjoyed your research into this vague, almost unknown, but extremely perplexing song.
There is a possible reason why this song is 'almost unknown' and that relates back to the earlier post Dave made in response to Pedro's comment about England not being a catholic country. Had England remain catholic then it is possible that given the hymnal like phrasing of the song it would have preserved it as a hymn and not forgotten it as a folk song - however, it is equally possible that it wouldn't have existed at all for the same reason.

This is because the song deals with purgatory, which is a medieval catholic concept that is rejected by all protestant religions. Yet anglican protestants didn't completely deny the basic premise of purgatory and limbo. The anglican church of England officially rejected the idea of purgatory over the period between 1563 and 1571 for several reasons, (but not the same ones Luther gave for European protestants), where putting an end to the commercialisation of salvation by the monasteries was one of them and the excommunication of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I by the Pope being another. However belief in it didn't go away as it takes more than an official dictate to dispel a superstition (having once believed something it's quite difficult to then unbelieve it). 

The population continued to believe in restless spirits and still prayed for the dead even though officially such prayers had been removed from the book of common prayer in 1571. For example writing in 1600 Shakespeare places the ghost of Hamlet's father in purgatory and evidence of Lyke Wake Dirge existing in 1616 and 1686 further indicates that belief in purgatory continued in protestant England, albeit as a folk tradition rather than an officially condoned religious one. The removal of prayers for the dead from the book of common prayer could be why Lyke Wake Dirge existed at all and why no evidence of its existence can be found prior to 1571. Historians will note that the period between 1616 and 1686 (specifically 1643 to 1660) is not insignificant and marks a time of anti-catholic and anti-anglican puritanism in England that denounced the concept of purgatory completely, which could indicate a different, but not dissimilar, reason for its existence. That's not to say it didn't exist before then or that it wasn't based upon an earlier song but goes someway to explain why we have evidence for it from that particular post-medieval time. 

This also gives us a different perspective with which to view those two tricky 'silver and gold' verses and why two different versions of it exist - with them it's catholic and without them it's anglican. The structure of the song strongly suggests that the catholic-leaning version pre-dates the anglican-leaning version but it still does not make it medieval in origin. Regardless of whatever religion the songwriter practiced at the time of writing it, if it was written between 1571 and 1616 then it is highly probable that they would have been born catholic so would have included those rogue verses.

...food for thought. Smile



Edited by Dean - September 22 2016 at 08:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2016 at 13:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:



When history is science (which mostly it is) then every statement is open to scrutiny, especially when those statements deal with conclusions of sociological nature - it would be an exaggeration to say that historians hold up a small pot shard and then deduce a whole social story around it as there is always a wealth of background data and knowledge to support them that we do not get to see (that separates them from the pseudos) - that data creates a context for the shard from where their conclusion was derived...

We are never going to have conclusive proof that Lyke Wake Dirge is medieval or has pagan roots, they are likely explanations but but not necessarily the most likely. The evidence does lean towards a Yorkshire or at least a Northern English origin for the first documented version but that's as far as that goes as it doesn't mean that the song originated there in the first place.



I agree that historians work with data to create a context with which to work in. Findings supported by that data are quite alright with me as these findings rely, as you stated, on a wealth of background data  along with the accepted methodologies used to determine that data. It's only the speculative findings that induce any ire in me, and that happens quite a lot, it seems.

I also agree that conclusive proof is lacking in the case of Lyke Wage Dirge being medieval with some pagan roots, but I still suggested it as a possible medieval song that found it's way to prog, as no conclusive proof exists to prove that it's not.

What's enjoyable to me, personally, is being able to challenge and question some of these speculative conclusions from time to time. Or in the case of this song, enjoying the efforts of someone else taking up that challenge and making a good show of it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 01:01
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I also agree that conclusive proof is lacking in the case of Lyke Wage Dirge being medieval with some pagan roots, but I still suggested it as a possible medieval song that found it's way to prog, as no conclusive proof exists to prove that it's not.

I'd say "found it's way onto an album by a Prog band" because while Basket of Light is The Pentangles most successful and most Jazz-Rock-Pop-Blues-Folk album, it's not really a Prog Rock album. Also Lyke Wake Dirge is the most traditional sounding (no-Jazz, no-Rock, no-Blues) track on the album albeit sounding more Elizabethan rather than Medieval (wherever the tune came from, it was probably much later than any written copy of the lyric).

However, that's all splitting hairs really - whether it's 1780, 1680, 1580 or 1080 make little odds, it's bloody old and was used by, (dammit I'm going to come right out and say it), the most influential Jazz-Rock-Pop-Blues-Folk band in Prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 03:10
However, this song continues to intrigue me.

Another thing that goes against any pagan origin is that Northern European pagan religions have no need for the song. The myth of the Bifrost->Heimdall->Aesgard->Valhalla route was only for warriors - Odin populated Valhalla with warriors to fight with him at Ragnarok so chose them for their heroism and not for their charitable deeds or morality - everyone else went to Helheim (the hidden home) when they died ... while the emergent christian religion adopted this as their "Hell", for the Norse and other Germanic pagan peoples this was a morally neutral place, how you acted in life had no bearing on how you were treated in the afterlife. In most non-Abrahamic religions Hell is not a place of punishment as there is no distinction between heaven and hell - the fate of dead who failed to gain access was annihilation or, in certain circumstances, return to the land of the living. 

So the only fear of the afterlife the newly bereaved experienced was if the dead failed to get there at all and so returned as draugr (a living corpses, literally "again walker") to wreak some dreadful revenge on the living as a revenant - in that respect a pre-christian corpse-watch (lychwake) was not to aid the soul on its journey, but to ensure the bugger stayed dead, and if they didn't then someone would be ready to stake their heart or lop off their head. Similarly obstacles along the route to Helheim were not there to test the worthiness of the dead as all dead souls were allowed to pass, but to hinder any living attempting to gain access. For example in a Danish saga of the death of Baldr:

Quote Meanwhile, Hermod rode nine nights through ever darker and deeper valleys on his quest to rescue the part of Baldur that had been sent to Hel. When he came to the river Gjoll (Gjöll, “Roaring”), Móðguðr, the giantess who guards the bridge [Gjallarbrú, "Bridge of Roaring"] asked him his name and his purpose, adding that it was strange that his footfalls were as thundering as those of an entire army, especially since his face still had the colour of the living. He answered to her satisfaction, and she allowed him to cross over into Hel’s realm.

Norse and Germanic stories of journeys to the underworld strongly parallel Greek mythology (Orpheus et al) so it was inevitable that the medieval concept of purgatory would draw heavily from these myths but the ideas of purging, atonement, salvation and absolution are uniquely christian. While there is no denying the pagan origin of the medieval concept of purgatory that consequently resulted in the soul's journey depicted in the dirge, it doesn't justify a pagan origin for the song itself.


Edited by Dean - September 23 2016 at 03:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 04:22
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


I'd say "found it's way onto an album by a Prog band" because while Basket of Light is The Pentangles most successful and most Jazz-Rock-Pop-Blues-Folk album, it's not really a Prog Rock album. Also Lyke Wake Dirge is the most traditional sounding (no-Jazz, no-Rock, no-Blues) track on the album albeit sounding more Elizabethan rather than Medieval (wherever the tune came from, it was probably much later than any written copy of the lyric).

However, that's all splitting hairs really - whether it's 1780, 1680, 1580 or 1080 make little odds, it's bloody old and was used by, (dammit I'm going to come right out and say it), the most influential Jazz-Rock-Pop-Blues-Folk band in Prog.
Agreed. Accuracy is always welcome. It is indeed an Elizabethan styled song that found it's way onto a jazz/folk/blues/rock "fusion" album (for lack of a better description) and is not representative of the other material on the album Basket of Light. However, it does seem to add a bit more mystery to this already enigmatic song.
 
The origins of purgatory are far more interesting that the origins of heaven and hell, and point to the eternal possibility of regret, change and redemption. Something that human beings can actually aspire to in this life. And, obviously the "after walker" and it's remedy has survived through the ages in the in the eastern European vampire lore, which found it's way into Bram Stoker's Dracula.
 


Edited by SteveG - September 23 2016 at 04:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 04:40
^ the idea of purgatory as a means to get people to think about how they act in this life (karma) is noble enough, but unfortunately that you could buy this through 'silver and gold' tainted it somewhat for many non-catholic christians (from Luther through to CS Lewis). It is nobler still to do that in this world without the promise of reward (or threat of punishment) in the next  - once you get past that there is little need for a next world at all. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 04:44
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

It is nobler still to do that in this world without the promise of reward (or threat of punishment) in the next  - once you get past that there is little need for a next world at all. Wink
I agree 100%. There's nothing more that I can add to this statement.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 04:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 06:26
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The origins of purgatory are far more interesting that the origins of heaven and hell, ...

Purgatory exists, and I passed through it very recently Wink:

Purgatory

But I'm not in heaven. Not yet Smile.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 08:59
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

...
So much for Mosh's anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Hardly. The only thing I'm critical of, is that group's extermination of the arts for almost 1000 years, to ensure that they survived and other arts/cultures didn't. The folks further away, suffered a lot less, to some extent, I imagine.


Edited by moshkito - September 23 2016 at 09:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 09:46
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

 

Purgatory exists, and I passed through it very recently Wink:
But I'm not in heaven. Not yet Smile.
Shocked Does that mean you're in the other place?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 09:50
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

 

Purgatory exists, and I passed through it very recently Wink:
But I'm not in heaven. Not yet Smile.
Shocked Does that mean you're in the other place?

No, fortunately LOL. It only means that I was in that part of Sicily less than a week ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2016 at 13:27
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

 

Purgatory exists, and I passed through it very recently Wink:
But I'm not in heaven. Not yet Smile.
Shocked Does that mean you're in the other place?

No, fortunately LOL. It only means that I was in that part of Sicily less than a week ago.
Darn! I had all these questions I was going to ask you! Oh well. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 09:23
So now we've had the historical prelude, hands up how many people believe that a large number of prog rock musicians sat down and made a detailed historical study of English medieval music and politics before flipping the power switch on a Mellotron ? 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2016 at 09:50
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

So now we've had the historical prelude, hands up how many people believe that a large number of prog rock musicians sat down and made a detailed historical study of English medieval music and politics before flipping the power switch on a Mellotron ? 


Probably none at all.

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