Karen Carpenter and Janis Joplin |
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Fischman
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Posted: October 23 2019 at 10:03 |
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Karen got forced out from behind the drum kit and in front of the mic because the record company saw $$. NO surprise there. The big surprise was that she actually was one of the greatest voices to ever adorn vinyl. Not processed, just pure beauty through and through. She brought incredible depth into even the most mundane of pop songs, and for the songs that actually had some depth to begin with, she took them totally off the charts (no pun intended). Her combination of stunningly gorgeous vocal timbre and hauntingly plaintive, achingly emotive delivery made her truly one for the ages. I will always appreciate her sacrifice in that regard. How ironic that a money grab accidentally ended up being one of the greatest artistic decision in music history.
I never really cared for Ronstadt though, mostly due to a lack of appreciation for the material. However, this is one stunning piece right here (rather surprisingly penned by none other than Michael Nesmith of Monkees fame)
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Psychedelic Paul
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Linda Ronstadt - "Dreams To Dream" (From "Fievel Goes West")
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rogerthat
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Whilst I agree with the gist of what you said, I would point to you that the thread itself is about the diminishing popularity of Carpenter and Joplin and that cannot be answered without discussing trends in the mainstream. Edited by rogerthat - October 23 2019 at 00:49 |
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Prog Sothoth
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Talent is talent. What is promoted doesn't mean talent. This ain't the 70's or before. External factors often mean more.
I'd love it if wonderful beauties like Weyes Blood can live all comfy off their music and not worry about crap, though I also like seeing my fav current performers at a cool club rather than some stadium in which the tickets were already bought by bots from scumbag re-sellers. Nothing made me happier than seeing these scalpers desperate to sell off their Katy Perry 2017 tickets for pennies. Hilarious. The modern "it" scene is such a mess that no-one knows what works. I wanted to like Billie Eilish just for her soft vocals and demeanor...I just wish that I could stand her album before getting annoyed after two songs. No soul-wails or nasal-drills, but damn, her brother sucks. It's better not to think about mainstream preferences, and just look around a little bit concerning groups similar to your favs. Cool stuff can pop up,and if it'd by an earnest artist with not a lot of YouTube clicks or other crap, let them know you're a fan. Just do it.
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rogerthat
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Thanks for sharing that song of Weyes Blood, nice, evoked British folk singers of the 70s more than Karen, but yeah low range and serene sounding. Re Janis, there was Beth Hart but she went through some problems and by the time she got back on track, the industry had moved on. The appetite for rock music was gone. That is the weirdest thing I have seen in the last 10 or so years. People have been writing about rock's demise for years but around the time I was getting into rock (2005-06), there was still a lot of rock around (and even more metal). Maybe some or even a lot of it was of questionable quality but it was popular for sure. What I've noticed, though (and this ties in with the point I made earlier), is the reality TV shows discourage rock singers. In season 7 of American Idol, Michael Johns actually got eliminated after a terrific performance of Dream On as Cowell and Randy manufactured flimsy reasons to suggest he shouldn't have taken on that song. As much as us musos pay no heed to these shows, their impact on the GENERAL populace cannot be underestimated and they have served the purpose of streamlining the mainstream sound to a narrow band revolving around R&B. Makes it predictable and consistent for them, I guess. For sure there are plenty of wonderful singers, male and female, flying just under the radar. It's what is above it that is not very edifying. As an example, Floor Jansen's performance of Shallow at Beste Zangers notched up well over a million views on Youtube. Totally mainstream, right? Except the Lady Gaga performance of it at Oscars got over 200 million views. And it isn't an Oscar effect. Her hit songs generally average in the hundreds of millions of views. That is, somebody who may come across as a star in OUR orbit is actually still flying way under the radar. As Liam Gallagher put it eloquently once, "If you are not on the charts, you don't exist".
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Prog Sothoth
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Singers with a range similar to Karen Carpenter are out there, but yeah, assembly-line entertainment doesn't pay much attention (more into air-raid sirens and nasal Eponine wannabes). One singer with that style is Weyes Blood, who probably won't be performing on SNL anytime soon, but has garnered a massive cult following. Her latest album has a 91% on metacritic, and the enormous attention given to her on RYM (currently at #2 with a slew of reviews for 2019) tells me the general public are missing out, but there's a hunger for that style of singing by music fans. I saw her live this year; she interchanged from playing keyboards and guitar (not drums though!), and sang superbly throughout. Plus her mere presence was amazing. As for Janis, for whatever reason, I think if the mid-late 90's female singer/songwriter boom was allowed to continue without the label conglomerates eventually dumping most of the artists for female-hating nu-metal and alt-metal bands, her style could've made a comeback. If I dug around, I feel that I can find some plugging away these days. There's a lot of cool female singers/musicians under the radar.
Edited by Prog Sothoth - October 21 2019 at 17:38 |
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Finnforest
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Great thoughts about Karen's voice.
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Icarium
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Psychedelic Paul
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I'm a big fan of Linda Ronstadt too. I have her rare album of lullabies in my CD collection, titled "Dedicated to the One I Love"
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rogerthat
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Yes, this is the one I mentioned above. Yet to watch it. Didn't release here and waiting to find it on one of the apps.
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Finnforest
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This is the brand new feature film documentary! Have you all heard about this? Edited by Finnforest - October 21 2019 at 10:13 |
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rogerthat
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Yes, I respect her a lot for her versatility. Emotionally I don't connect much with her singing but her willingness to experiment and repeatedly step out of her comfort zone to stay ahead of the times is very worthy of admiration. Have yet to see the new documentary about her.
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Finnforest
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Yes, that another great point! She didn't want to be the "frontperson." She considered herself a drummer-first and wanted to be the drummer who sang, think Don Henley. But, again, family and management forced her into that role. Ronstadt seems very different in that she was "in charge" in a big way. I haven't read her story, but it sure appears that she did what she wanted, when she wanted, and called all the shots.
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rogerthat
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To be fair, her voice WAS one in a million. And Phil Collins had to find a work around too once he became Genesis' vocalist so drummers who sing well tend to have a problem of plenty. The more troubling part about the Carpenter saga is Richard and the label insisting she ought to keep her voice always in that low contralto-ish range. Understand...she wasn't REALLY a contralto. Her lowest notes aren't much lower, if at all, than a legit soprano like Annie Haslam (OK Annie has mezzo-ish depth low but still...). That is, Karen Carpenter was a mezzo who was made to sing like a contralto to conform to a certain image. Richard disliked it when she recorded Don't Cry For Me Argentina but I find nothing wrong with that version. You can find other versions like Elaine Page where the interpretation is arguably more apt for the material but the insinuation from the Richard camp that the song exposed how weak Karen's high notes were is...I don't even know where that comes from. Duh, when a woman gets into her head voice, it is going to sound a little different from her chest voice, that's very normal. And it's not something only women have to do, even a metal God like Rob Halford can't get his Ripper voice up into the fifth octave. One can observe not only from the Little Girl Blue book Finnforest mentioned but also various documentaries, a tendency by Richard and Agnes to control Karen Carpenter and shape her career in a way THEY wanted and not necessarily what she sought out. This is also why the solo album drove Richard crazy; the very idea of Karen swinging freely to disco was too much for him to take. No, Karen HAD to be the homely nightbird singing in that precocious manner and nothing else would do.
Edited by rogerthat - October 21 2019 at 10:05 |
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rogerthat
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I have read that book too! It's brilliant and also devastating to read, unfortunately. By the way, haven't seen you here in ages! Howdy?
Edited by rogerthat - October 21 2019 at 10:04 |
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rogerthat
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This was particularly saddening in Karen Carpenter's case (given it drove her to anorexia) because she wasn't even ugly by any yardstick. She was just being held up against a very unrealistic and narrow minded idea of physical beauty. And speaking of, a common criticism of her solo album is her singing sounded 'sexless'. Eh, she had had a fair few affairs by the time she recorded the album, so why did these critics assume she knew nothing about sex? Or did they mean they wanted to hear that particular oooh aaah kind of sound in her singing when she sang disco and wouldn't respect her attempt to preserve her own style and identity even as she ventured out of her comfort zone? The entire saga around her solo album is shocking and more so for how easily the fans rationalise the decision of A&M. All these men deciding on her behalf that the album was no good (albeit it has the very poignant If We Try performed very much in the tried and tested Carpenters tradition) and she wouldn't be able to bear the humiliation when it tanked. Funnily enough, without much promotion, the album, upon being released way late in the 90s, went platinum.
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Icarium
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I feel the story of Judty Garland, Karen Carpenter and Linda Ronstadt is also an expression of the buisness and whos in control. Ive been around in my time at the university and humaniora circels, from music and feminisme minded frieds whom made me awere when focus is on female artist, that its not only focusing on femals as front figures, that is good in itself, but i also like to highlight when females had a large role as lead instrumentařist and makes a name for themselvs in what is seen as male dominated feelds. So Karen as a vocalist is not enough in describing Karen as a musician as she also was a drummer whom got told to drum less and sing more, yet she thought of herself as drummer first. When one is rejected from doing snd express oneself through ones passion also is not good for the psychy
I now im my friendzone know plenty of stellar female drummers, bass players, guitarists and so on, when i see them i think of Karen and other female lead rythem instrumentalists |
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Finnforest
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True. It bums me out because she seemed such a good person in many ways. And not that she didn't care about money because she obviously enjoyed the fruits of success, but I believe her heart was in the right place, at least based on the books I've read.
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Snicolette
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A story that repeats itself often when greed is the motivating factor behind those close to artists....Karen's has some additional sad twists.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Finnforest
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Oh, another thing with Karen...apparently, being a wife and mother was the thing she wanted most. She did want the white picket fence thing, and she told her friends this constantly. In a sad irony, it is her art and the containment of her family/management that hindered her ability to find the husband/children she wanted. I can only imagine the frustration and turmoil that caused. What finally broke her was hurriedly marrying a complete a****le who she didn't vet, a man who dangled the carrot of the family dream in front of her only to yank it away about 10 minutes after the "I Do's." He was apparently just after her money and despite being warned about him, she made the wrong choice. It ended up being the last straw for her, along with her company's decision to shelve her solo career because it might negatively affect the Carpenters bottom line. Her story is sadly much more tragic than anorexia when you read about it. She was never able to have the life she really wanted, and her family seemed oblivious to her needs until it was too late.
Edited by Finnforest - October 21 2019 at 09:29 |
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