Karen Carpenter and Janis Joplin |
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Icarium
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Posted: October 15 2019 at 16:32 |
Female power of rock music.
This is a topic im farely intrigued about. On the presentation and promotation of the voices of rock and pop music. Both in terms of vocals and instrumentational. Two images of female expression in popular music, in rock, jazz, country and pop. With differnet voices whom became victims of the pressure of stardome and expectations. Ill fated and misguided goals in terms of how stars were treated. The relevance of Karens and Janises in todays female fronted bands or gendre equal focused bands is forgotten. People remembers Joni, Kate snd Bjork. But the eternal power of Janis and grace of Karen is gone. had they but lived longer... eh. folly dreams yet how lineage makes sounds more relevance. Looking on Karens drumming is in 2010s a revalation and Janis integraty is so heartfelt. So a scream and support out for the Janises and Karens of pop/rock today. |
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Atavachron
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^ Quite agree. Janis was a more compelling performer but Karen had that voice... one in a million. |
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Icarium
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the word intrgued is some how not filling IT. in fareness I have in general started to rework my "eyes" and "ears" in terms of appreciation of art. More in how female rock is vied in different terms in 2010s in contrast of 60s and 70s media focus.
Edited by Icarium - October 15 2019 at 16:50 |
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micky
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*spits pre-debate beer all over monitor* how to really compare them..
musically? hah!!! nah...
but... oh yeah.. easy vote...Janis... I bet she was a freak in the sack... and had good taste in whiskey as well. Was my poison of choice... |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Snicolette
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Completely different worlds. Janis for me.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Easy Money
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Karen Carpenter was also a very good drummer. The original Carpenters were a jazz trio with Karen on drums.
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http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Offline Points: 34805 |
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If this was a poll. my vote would go to Karen Carpenter.
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Icarium
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I could not for the sake of competition justify a poll. I moore so is interested in the musicology |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Perhaps it feels that way on a prog forum but trust me, in the wide world of rock and pop music outside, Karen and Janis are way more well known, especially if you're talking Bjork or Kate. At least Joni has some pop standard like songs like Both Sides Now or I Don't Know Where I Stand. If anything, two connected trends in pop music that have nothing to do with wonderful solo songwriters like Kate Bush or Joni Mitchell have had a greater role in pushing singers like Karen Carpenter or Janis Joplin a little into the background. First, the mainstreaming of the concept of a pop diva singing mostly riffs over almost-screamed fifth octave notes (Whitney/Mariah/Celine). This has become so popular as to be assumed to be the only acceptable or at least the best way to sing in pop music. The only alternative (and this was the last credible resurgence of a different style in pop music) is Amy Winehouse like contralto mumbling. Adele sort of bridged both styles but essentially leans towards the Winehouse side of things and Lana Del Rey is very much a Winehouse clone. All this leaves very little room for Karen Carpenter's soothing and soaring singing within a mid-range (as opposed to going really high) and emphasising textual interpretation and phrasing over technical gymnastics. It is also thought of as kinda wimpy or too 'feminine' by those who think only flat out belting throughout a song is powerful. Basically, the range of expressions considered valid for a female pop singer have been narrowed dramatically even whilst the mainstream believes they are leading an epic female emancipation or whatever. There is none of the diversity you had in the 70s. The other which goes hand in hand with the first trend is treating only black-dominated genres and styles as valid. I have noticed that my Indian-American cousins listen almost exclusively to black artists. I have never interrogated them about this for fear of stepping on a PC landmine, lol, but it has always struck me as strange coming from a perspective where I just listen to the audio and react instinctively at first and later find out all about the race, nationality or ethnicity of the artist. The few white artists my cousins like tend to appropriate and imitate black genres (Ariana Grande). As you may well know, outside the safe space of progarchives or other forums where a spectrum of opinions is tolerated without being a mouthpiece for only one side, basically all rock music is just white male supremacy (oh, and also homophobic even though it championed gay artists long before pop). Janis Joplin is then a gross misfit in this kind of reading of popular music culture. They can't even...what was this lady doing rocking out with white dudes. In this way, both Karen Carpenter and Janis Joplin don't fit into certain narratives that 'liberal' media seeks to champion about music and these narratives in turn completely ignore how powerful an example these two ladies set by blazing a trail for many female artists to come. I am sure if you ask actual female musicians and singers, they would have a very different take about the two and would whole heartedly extol their example but that, apparently, is not what we're supposed to do. Thankfully, because the two are women, the media can't go after them and attack them but they do seem to find it uncomfortable as to what exactly they are supposed to do with them and would prefer to spin them as 'cautionary' tales (nevermind that the same could likewise be said of Whitney or Amy Winehouse too).
Edited by rogerthat - October 21 2019 at 00:57 |
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Icarium
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I actually like Lana del Ray alot, she has a cooĝ ecperimentive atmosphere. My favourite female artist in 80s is Suzand Vega, whom like Karen have that talking, soothing voice, with jazzy/folk band, sharp as a knife music and arrangemnts. We need more champions of soothing voices.
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rogerthat
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Oh, I didn't mean to disparage Lana Del Rey. I am simply categorising the different female vocal styles in pop music. Another oddball I am watching out for is the British black artist Lianne La Havas. She combines that soul voice with Amy like staccato phrasing and avoids excessive melismatics. Listen to her second album. It shows how much space gets opened up for nuances of expression once a singer eschews the temptation to pass off melismas as the entire song. Oh, and she is a talented songwriter too. But she has only been moderately successful, which makes me fear that perhaps tastes have been spoiled beyond redemption now. |
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Psychedelic Paul
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Rumour has it that Rumer sounds very much like Karen Carpenter.....
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Snicolette
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Well thought out post re pop female vocalists, rogerthat......Personally, I find the diva penchant of as many notes as possible sung for every syllable predictable and boring, not to mention just plain irritating!
Speaking of pop as well in particular, but not exclusively in that realm, one of the things that has remained for female artists is the preference that they possess physical beauty (not unheard of for male artists, either, but more likely to get away with it, if they are not so blessed). In Janis' and Karen's cases, Janis often mourned that she wasn't "prettier," in her interviews and Karen went so far as to commit slow suicide to try and attain "beauty," and perfection. |
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Finnforest
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In addition to the beauty aspect of Karen's illness, I believe that another important facet was control and rebellion. Karen was surrounded by an intensely controlling family and management. Hell, she was a grown woman in her 20s, and her family is telling her who she can date! Her mother also made Richard the center of her life while seemingly looking right through Karen but not really seeing her. So I think part of her illness was around a need to push back at these people in the only way she felt she had any control, which became what she would put into her body. Just my opinion after reading Little Girl Blue, but the author documents some of the this stuff in a pretty compelling way.
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Finnforest
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Nice to see a thoughtful thread on classic female vocalists. Another woman who deserves much praise imo is Linda Ronstadt. I'm doing a deep dive now through her 28 studio albums, and I feel like a fool for not paying more attention sooner. She is an amazing vocalist with great musical instincts, and her albums are, at different times, diverse, fun, moving, surprising.
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Snicolette
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Well spoken in both posts, Finnforest.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Finnforest
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Oh, another thing with Karen...apparently, being a wife and mother was the thing she wanted most. She did want the white picket fence thing, and she told her friends this constantly. In a sad irony, it is her art and the containment of her family/management that hindered her ability to find the husband/children she wanted. I can only imagine the frustration and turmoil that caused. What finally broke her was hurriedly marrying a complete a****le who she didn't vet, a man who dangled the carrot of the family dream in front of her only to yank it away about 10 minutes after the "I Do's." He was apparently just after her money and despite being warned about him, she made the wrong choice. It ended up being the last straw for her, along with her company's decision to shelve her solo career because it might negatively affect the Carpenters bottom line. Her story is sadly much more tragic than anorexia when you read about it. She was never able to have the life she really wanted, and her family seemed oblivious to her needs until it was too late.
Edited by Finnforest - October 21 2019 at 09:29 |
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Snicolette
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A story that repeats itself often when greed is the motivating factor behind those close to artists....Karen's has some additional sad twists.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Finnforest
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True. It bums me out because she seemed such a good person in many ways. And not that she didn't care about money because she obviously enjoyed the fruits of success, but I believe her heart was in the right place, at least based on the books I've read.
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Icarium
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I feel the story of Judty Garland, Karen Carpenter and Linda Ronstadt is also an expression of the buisness and whos in control. Ive been around in my time at the university and humaniora circels, from music and feminisme minded frieds whom made me awere when focus is on female artist, that its not only focusing on femals as front figures, that is good in itself, but i also like to highlight when females had a large role as lead instrumentaĝist and makes a name for themselvs in what is seen as male dominated feelds. So Karen as a vocalist is not enough in describing Karen as a musician as she also was a drummer whom got told to drum less and sing more, yet she thought of herself as drummer first. When one is rejected from doing snd express oneself through ones passion also is not good for the psychy
I now im my friendzone know plenty of stellar female drummers, bass players, guitarists and so on, when i see them i think of Karen and other female lead rythem instrumentalists |
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