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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

... 
That the record industry was welcoming to oddball acts was just due their own drive to find the next big thing, when there was an era in pop music when the old "cookie cutter" musical trends of 50s were temporally put on hold until new "cookie cutter" trends evolved and took hold in the late 70s. A practice that still exists up to this day, albeit with different music trends.

Steve, please watch the TOM DOWD special ... you will then see this completely different.

Since the 1910's and 1920's ALMOST ALL OF THE MUSIC RIGHTS AND REGISTERING was owned by the MOVIE STUDIOS ... and this means that a lot of artists after the war and in the 1950's that were recorded and released, were done for the studio artists and folks ... and Tom Down even goes so far as to say that this created a horrible problem for black artists ... who managed to survive ... but could not get distributed anywhere beyond their city, for the most part.

That the whole thing began crumbling down in the 1970's is not a surprise ... once The Beatles and Rolling Stones let out that ... guess what ... we don't own our music! ... and all of a sudden you got many bands creating their own registry system for the music ... and soon enough to own their own albums and productions ... but there was a problem ... they needed record company money (from other losing bands!) to be able to tour!

BS is not a trailblazer for anything, except the "image" of something dark, because of a cover and a sound that was registered lower than usual ... and btw, our favorite FM station had the turntables turned down 1% ot so ... which you can't quite hear, but it sure makes that bass sound heavier! Try it on one of those Stanton turntables ... oh yeah ... BS is heavy ... !!!!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

... 
That the record industry was welcoming to oddball acts was just due their own drive to find the next big thing, when there was an era in pop music when the old "cookie cutter" musical trends of 50s were temporally put on hold until new "cookie cutter" trends evolved and took hold in the late 70s. A practice that still exists up to this day, albeit with different music trends.

Steve, please watch the TOM DOWD special ... you will then see this completely different.

Since the 1910's and 1920's ALMOST ALL OF THE MUSIC RIGHTS AND REGISTERING was owned by the MOVIE STUDIOS ... and this means that a lot of artists after the war and in the 1950's that were recorded and released, were done for the studio artists and folks ... and Tom Down even goes so far as to say that this created a horrible problem for black artists ... who managed to survive ... but could not get distributed anywhere beyond their city, for the most part.

That the whole thing began crumbling down in the 1970's is not a surprise ... once The Beatles and Rolling Stones let out that ... guess what ... we don't own our music! ... and all of a sudden you got many bands creating their own registry system for the music ... and soon enough to own their own albums and productions ... but there was a problem ... they needed record company money (from other losing bands!) to be able to tour!

BS is not a trailblazer for anything, except the "image" of something dark, because of a cover and a sound that was registered lower than usual ... and btw, our favorite FM station had the turntables turned down 1% ot so ... which you can't quite hear, but it sure makes that bass sound heavier! Try it on one of those Stanton turntables ... oh yeah ... BS is heavy ... !!!!
I watched it mosh, what's your point?
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

...
I watched it mosh, what's your point?

Sad ...  there is nothing in it that was valuable to your history ... the cookie cutter lives in many ways, and you can see some battles (Taylor Swift recently and others) about it ... but they do not "dominate" the industry that much anymore ... although it seems like it because the numbers are so big ... but in essence what it really says is that there are more "fans" out there, than before, and it is much more visible, and has been since the days of The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. And even Elvis! (... and specially when the record companies cheated, lied and distorted numbers so they could make some more money!)

But artistically, it's not even a discussion.

I think, and consider, our "job" to help artists that we love and appreciate for their great music ... not yet another version of a pop song with a tuned down instrument ... but your concern is about putting me down, instead of discussing the point shown/given ... and you skipped the part about the record to platter directly in the special, which was almost all done from black music!

The lack of respect and appreciation for the work that so many great people have done ... to keep the music going ... just so you could make your comment about me! Progressive ... indeed!


Edited by moshkito - February 19 2020 at 07:57
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I've said it often enough, and it bears repeating: in the late 60s through about the mid-70s, bands with any ability did whatever the hell they wanted, whenever they wanted, because the record industry lost a lot of control during that time period.
 
The idea that the record industry "lost control" in that era is laughable to me, especially when iron fisted rulers like Ahmet Ertegen controlled labels like Atlantic Records. He put Neil Young together with CSN in order to make a super group and sunk big money into Yes And Genesis, who he stole from Charisma Records, because he felt that progressive bands were the next big thing. He also put a ton of promotional money into a little blues rock group called Led Zeppelin. He's just one example of many. The Beatles may have been the first to launch their own vanity label, but it had no bearing on the wealth of EMI records, who they were stilled signed to while the Beatles were losing their minds as well as their own money. And while Led Zep manager Peter Grant negotiated for 90% of the concert gate and more points for record sales, Atlantic never ceded total artistic control to the group.That's why Zeppelin album covers are quite tame when contrasted with the music that's on the record groves.
 
That the record industry was welcoming to oddball acts was just due their own drive to find the next big thing, when there was an era in pop music when the old "cookie cutter" musical trends of 50s were temporally put on hold until new "cookie cutter" trends evolved and took hold in the late 70s. A practice that still exists up to this day, albeit with different music trends.

Slow your roll there, Chachi. I wasn't referring to copyrights and catalog ownership, which has always been a deplorable near-slavish aspect of the record industry ever since Jellyroll Morton was plinking the ivory,  I was referring to the blithe release of material that was decidedly anti-establishment, creative-in-the-extreme, and about as non-pop as you can get, and said material was inexplicably (how else can one define it?) allowed to compete with your aforementioned cookie-cutter and knock-off assemblages of bands emulating the more crazy stuff in a more sedate and politically correct manner. And for a brief period in music history, the crazy sh*t was marketed well enough and appeared on enough underground FM stations to sell as many or more units than the conventional crap. As I inferred previously, Zappa makes clear the modus operandi of how this incendiary material made its way on the airwaves:




Edited by The Dark Elf - February 19 2020 at 22:03
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

...
And for a brief period in music history, the crazy sh*t was marketed well enough and appeared on enough underground FM stations to sell as many or more units than the conventional crap. As I inferred previously, Zappa makes clear the modus operandi of how this incendiary material made its way on the airwaves:



And that "brief period" probably lasted until the mid 70's ... and what a lot of folks might consider the golden period of the music ... however, this was the case in America and England, a lot more than anywhere else in the world ... Germany (with the old guard still controlling things -- well shown in the book Future Days), France, Italy, Spain and many other places did not lose the spirit of the music ... they kept it alive, more or less and added their own cultural touch. 
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I've said it often enough, and it bears repeating: in the late 60s through about the mid-70s, bands with any ability did whatever the hell they wanted, whenever they wanted, because the record industry lost a lot of control during that time period.
 
The idea that the record industry "lost control" in that era is laughable to me, especially when iron fisted rulers like Ahmet Ertegen controlled labels like Atlantic Records. He put Neil Young together with CSN in order to make a super group and sunk big money into Yes And Genesis, who he stole from Charisma Records, because he felt that progressive bands were the next big thing. He also put a ton of promotional money into a little blues rock group called Led Zeppelin. He's just one example of many. The Beatles may have been the first to launch their own vanity label, but it had no bearing on the wealth of EMI records, who they were stilled signed to while the Beatles were losing their minds as well as their own money. And while Led Zep manager Peter Grant negotiated for 90% of the concert gate and more points for record sales, Atlantic never ceded total artistic control to the group.That's why Zeppelin album covers are quite tame when contrasted with the music that's on the record groves.
 
That the record industry was welcoming to oddball acts was just due their own drive to find the next big thing, when there was an era in pop music when the old "cookie cutter" musical trends of 50s were temporally put on hold until new "cookie cutter" trends evolved and took hold in the late 70s. A practice that still exists up to this day, albeit with different music trends.

Slow your roll there, Chachi. I wasn't referring to copyrights and catalog ownership, which has always been a deplorable near-slavish aspect of the record industry ever since Jellyroll Morton was plinking the ivory,  I was referring to the blithe release of material that was decidedly anti-establishment, creative-in-the-extreme, and about as non-pop as you can get, and said material was inexplicably (how else can one define it?) allowed to compete with your aforementioned cookie-cutter and knock-off assemblages of bands emulating the more crazy stuff in a more sedate and politically correct manner. And for a brief period in music history, the crazy sh*t was marketed well enough and appeared on enough underground FM stations to sell as many or more units than the conventional crap. As I inferred previously, Zappa makes clear the modus operandi of how this incendiary material made its way on the airwaves:


You and I must have different definitions for "losing control". But I agree that it was a brief "anything goes" time in pop music, and the catalyst for so much musical experimentation. Something we'll never see again, I'm afraid.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 they took blues-rock to a whole other level, widened musical boundaries, indulged in lengthy complex tracks, and expanded their live performances like no one of their time ... or any time.   Each album was different, showed highly technically skilled arrangements for the time, experimented with all number of styles, and took cues from no one.   In other words, prog rock.


You could be describing the Allman Brothers or the Grateful Dead here. (even The Sensational Alex Harvey Band reductio ad absurdum) Both of us know full well that Zep were added on PA solely as click-bait to attract their fanbase with the bauble of a Prog Related képi blanc to bolster membership. That's a smart move by a site owner whose exploiting unfettered musical snobbery to further his own fiscal ambitions.


Edited by ExittheLemming - February 20 2020 at 07:45
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^ I was told that this was s a non for profit music site. Damn, I want my sign up fee back! With interest. Wink
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

It was what it was progressive underground hard rock but it wasn't prog rock.


Agreed. I come from a metal and hard rock background, with over a decade of recording and live experience. and I will say I never, ever viewed Sabbath as progressing anything other than the heaviness of certain styles of rock and metal riffing. Sabra Cadabra was their closest IMHO. In fact, Sabbath is very one-trick pony beyond the tunings and slower paced riffs IMO. That's a logical progression someone would've stumbled upon, and falls prey to the "they did it first" fallacy, which is always BS.
 

Agreed. I'm the same, hard rock and metal has been my main drive, since forever. Never ever thought of Sabbath having anything to do with prog in anyway at all, the same applies to Queen and in fact all the 60s and 70s hard rock bands. The fact that so many prog fans like them, and incorrectly identify and appropriate hard rock and metal elements as prog is irrelevant. Prog is not the only fruit.   

The fact that their anomaly "Paranoid" was such an underground hit does not make them a psych or prog band. In the same way that Jethro Tull winning that metal award in 89 does not make them a metal band. 

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Edited by LAM-SGC - February 20 2020 at 13:18
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 they took blues-rock to a whole other level, widened musical boundaries, indulged in lengthy complex tracks, and expanded their live performances like no one of their time ... or any time.   Each album was different, showed highly technically skilled arrangements for the time, experimented with all number of styles, and took cues from no one.   In other words, prog rock.
You could be describing the Allman Brothers or the Grateful Dead here. (even The Sensational Alex Harvey Band reductio ad absurdum) Both of us know full well that Zep were added on PA solely as click-bait to attract their fanbase with the bauble of a Prog Related képi blanc to bolster membership. That's a smart move by a site owner whose exploiting unfettered musical snobbery to further his own fiscal ambitions.

Whew, there's some buckshot in that !  

Largely true of course.  But I'm a shameless Zephead.  Someone has to be.
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The Big Three:

Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin


And only DP had some prog in them.

If you call LZ a prog band, then so is every other rootsy blues rock band of the 60s and 70s.
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

The Big Three:

Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin


And only DP had some prog in them.

If you call LZ a prog band, then so is every other rootsy blues rock band of the 60s and 70s.


Nobody calls LZ prog, although they had a few prog songs.
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

If you call LZ a prog band, then so is every other rootsy blues rock band of the 60s and 70s.

Not at all: 
- Cream was not a prog band (simple,quick songs; almost no emphasis on complex arrangements or technicality) though they had a big influence on proto- and heavy prog.
- Janis & the Holding Co. was not a prog band for the same reasons Cream wasn't, though they contributed greatly to both Psych and Heavy Blues.
- Johnny Winter, Blind Faith, Canned Heat, same thing

Zeppelin were a totally different animal: much more interested in, and capable of, high musicianship.   They progressed blues/blues-rock rather than just celebrating it like everyone else, and recreated their music almost every night.   The other bluesrock artists of the time can't really say that.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

If you call LZ a prog band, then so is every other rootsy blues rock band of the 60s and 70s.

Not at all: 
- Cream was not a prog band (simple,quick songs; almost no emphasis on complex arrangements or technicality) though they had a big influence on proto- and heavy prog.
- Janis & the Holding Co. was not a prog band for the same reasons Cream wasn't, though they contributed greatly to both Psych and Heavy Blues.
- Johnny Winter, Blind Faith, Canned Heat, same thing

Zeppelin were a totally different animal: much more interested in, and capable of, high musicianship.   They progressed blues/blues-rock rather than just celebrating it like everyone else, and recreated their music almost every night.   The other bluesrock artists of the time can't really say that.




You may have a point, you seem to know your stuff and so I won't argue with that. But you are hearing something in their music that I don't hear then. Don't get me wrong I love a lot of LZ but I don't hear anything proggy in them, in fact as you mentioned Cream, I hear a lot of invention and genius on Disraeli Gears. The first two LZ albums are not my cup of tea at all.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 they took blues-rock to a whole other level, widened musical boundaries, indulged in lengthy complex tracks, and expanded their live performances like no one of their time ... or any time.   Each album was different, showed highly technically skilled arrangements for the time, experimented with all number of styles, and took cues from no one.   In other words, prog rock.
You could be describing the Allman Brothers or the Grateful Dead here. (even The Sensational Alex Harvey Band reductio ad absurdum) Both of us know full well that Zep were added on PA solely as click-bait to attract their fanbase with the bauble of a Prog Related képi blanc to bolster membership. That's a smart move by a site owner whose exploiting unfettered musical snobbery to further his own fiscal ambitions.

Whew, there's some buckshot in that !  

Largely true of course.  But I'm a shameless Zephead.  Someone has to be.




Just for clarity, I consider you one of the least snobbish progressive music fans on here
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

The Big Three:

Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin


And only DP had some prog in them.

If you call LZ a prog band, then so is every other rootsy blues rock band of the 60s and 70s.


Nobody calls LZ prog, although they had a few prog songs.

So did Deep Purple but I would argue that LZ had just as many if not more. Come to think of it all three had prog songs but that doesn't make any of them prog bands. It's not like they all put out full blown prog albums like even Pink Floyd, Kansas or Rush(bands who some say aren't prog). 
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 they took blues-rock to a whole other level, widened musical boundaries, indulged in lengthy complex tracks, and expanded their live performances like no one of their time ... or any time.   Each album was different, showed highly technically skilled arrangements for the time, experimented with all number of styles, and took cues from no one.   In other words, prog rock.
You could be describing the Allman Brothers or the Grateful Dead here. (even The Sensational Alex Harvey Band reductio ad absurdum) Both of us know full well that Zep were added on PA solely as click-bait to attract their fanbase with the bauble of a Prog Related képi blanc to bolster membership. That's a smart move by a site owner whose exploiting unfettered musical snobbery to further his own fiscal ambitions.

Whew, there's some buckshot in that !  

Largely true of course.  But I'm a shameless Zephead.  Someone has to be.




Just for clarity, I consider you one of the least snobbish progressive music fans on here

I guess my posts go unnoticed or I don't post enough because no one on here is less snobby than me. I listen to frigging pop(some anyway) and arena rock for crying out loud and defend bands like Asia, Journey and Styx not to mention neo prog. You can't get any less snobby than that. Wink  Anyone who listens to a wide variety of music and not just prog is typically not a prog snob.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 23 2020 at 22:45
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

The Big Three:

Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin


And only DP had some prog in them.

If you call LZ a prog band, then so is every other rootsy blues rock band of the 60s and 70s.


Nobody calls LZ prog, although they had a few prog songs.

So did Deep Purple but I would argue that LZ had just as many if not more. Come to think of it all three had prog songs but that doesn't make any of them prog bands. It's not like they all put out full blown prog albums like even Pink Floyd, Kansas or Rush(bands who some say aren't prog). 
Rush have always been a Hard Rock band to me and not a Prog-Rock band, but I'm glad they're here on ProgArchives. Smile
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 they took blues-rock to a whole other level, widened musical boundaries, indulged in lengthy complex tracks, and expanded their live performances like no one of their time ... or any time.   Each album was different, showed highly technically skilled arrangements for the time, experimented with all number of styles, and took cues from no one.   In other words, prog rock.
You could be describing the Allman Brothers or the Grateful Dead here. (even The Sensational Alex Harvey Band reductio ad absurdum) Both of us know full well that Zep were added on PA solely as click-bait to attract their fanbase with the bauble of a Prog Related képi blanc to bolster membership. That's a smart move by a site owner whose exploiting unfettered musical snobbery to further his own fiscal ambitions.

Whew, there's some buckshot in that !  

Largely true of course.  But I'm a shameless Zephead.  Someone has to be.




Just for clarity, I consider you one of the least snobbish progressive music fans on here

I guess my posts go unnoticed or I don't post enough because no one on here is less snobby than me. I listen to frigging pop(some anyway) and arena rock for crying out loud and defend bands like Asia, Journey and Styx not to mention neo prog. You can't get any less snobby than that. Wink  Anyone who listens to a wide variety of music and not just prog is typically not a prog snob.


The 'least snobbish progressive music fan' is hardly anything to aspire to. It can't be dissimilar to 'tallest dwarf in the village award'
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

The Big Three:

Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Led Zeppelin


And only DP had some prog in them.

If you call LZ a prog band, then so is every other rootsy blues rock band of the 60s and 70s.


Nobody calls LZ prog, although they had a few prog songs.

So did Deep Purple but I would argue that LZ had just as many if not more. Come to think of it all three had prog songs but that doesn't make any of them prog bands. It's not like they all put out full blown prog albums like even Pink Floyd, Kansas or Rush(bands who some say aren't prog). 
Rush have always been a Hard Rock band to me and not a Prog-Rock band, but I'm glad they're here on ProgArchives. Smile
I don't know, Paul. 2112 is so prog that an Argentine prog band named themselves 2112.
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