Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Prog musicians juggling music career and work?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Prog musicians juggling music career and work?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
Message
Awesoreno View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 07 2019
Location: Culver City, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2020 at 23:39
I was talking to a producer/writer friend of mine who was giving my music partner and I some pointers on the biz. Two things really stuck with me that are kind of intertwined. If you want the money, you have to play live. Too many fresh musicians make their album, and maybe even sink a lot of money into it, and then go "where are my fans?" The Internet certainly makes it easier for people to access your music, but it also makes it easier to get lost. Having an exciting live scene makes you stand out. This is hard right now because of the pandemic, but liveSTREAMING is a thing. My music partner and I hope to get on that (once we get some more members hopefully). The other thing he said, which kind of goes hand in hand with the previous point, is that people nowadays are bored of most popular music right now and they don't even know it. So many interesting sub-genres are either being rediscovered or repurposed from the 70s-90s, and other fresh ones are emerging. So many people are actually open-minded to something new, but they have so many places to listen to it that it kind of bores them. This is why jazz is having a rebirth in this interesting, avant/pop/hip-hop/R'n'B way. And plenty of fresh prog groups are taking pages out of the book of outfits like Dirty Loops, Snarky Puppy (both of which should be on PA), Louis Cole, Thundercat, Esperanza Spalding. All these really sick players who have FUN. Seeing people perform on stage is exhilarating when they're playing at such a level of virtuosity and musicianship as these guys, and watching them have fun with it makes it even more accessible. My partner and I would have these backyard concerts in college (we just graduated so the last three years) called Hot Loads of Jazz. We inherited this tradition from the previous house owners (as well as the hilarious name). But it grew into much more than a jazz fest. We played all kinds of stuff, and people loved it. People whom I thought would NEVER listen to this stuff. People who went crazy for my partner's amazing prog music (he's on PA, Jarod Fedele, check him out) AND for Snarky Puppy AND for Freddie Hubbard AND Tadd Dameron. There's interest for interesting stuff out there, you just have to grab people's attention. 

TL;DR - The Internet helps ands hurts. Play live (or livestream) and have fun and you'll build a fanbase of people who are tired of the mainstream.
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Online
Points: 8298
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2020 at 23:43
^Snarky puppy aren't rock or prog enough for PA. They are too funky and too jazzy. I suggested them and they have been suggested before but got shot down. 
Back to Top
Awesoreno View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 07 2019
Location: Culver City, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2020 at 23:47
Oh well. (Also if anyone wants to join a band in the Los Angeles area, hit me up. Looking to play prog with a lot of jazz influence with hints of metal. We already have an LP's-worth of music written. Maybe it's a long-shot, but hey, I might as well use the Internet wisely. I know there are other threads for this, and I'll go there too eventually, but seeming as how I have some peoples' attention...)
Back to Top
Forgotten Son View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1343
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Forgotten Son Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2020 at 10:15
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

  You are 100% wrong on both points. I have been recording music for over 35 years. Once you own the equipment, it costs nothing. If you book a studio sure, but no one does that anymore. If you make CD's or LP's there are expenses. But most unknown artists realease digital only to avoid these costs.

And here is what you can google about Spotify..."Spotify pays whoever holds the rights to a song anywhere from $0.006 to $0.0084 per play. The rights “holder” can then split these earning between the record label, producers, artists, and songwriters, which means splitting pennies between many parties." This is nowhere near 500 times higher as you suggested. I also know how much I get paid through my cdbaby artist account. The streaming amount I gave is accurate.


There are potentially some costs involved in mastering, artwork and the cost of a publicist if you want your music to get any attention and don't have the time/patience to do it yourself. You're broadly correct that making music now is considerably cheaper than it was in the past though.

You're very wrong about streaming revenue though, on your own terms. If you're obviating the costs of a studio, producer etc and recording an album at home with your own equipment, then revenue is only going to be split with bandmates, if at all. Assuming a 5 piece band, that would be  ~0.1-0.2 cent per play per member. Even if you were signed to an indie label with a 50% share between band and label, that would be 0.05-0.1 cents per play per person. This obviously isn't brilliant by any stretch of the imagination, but it's far from 0.001 cents per play.
Back to Top
ginodi View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: September 13 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 62
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ginodi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2020 at 10:40
I have often wondered how musicians have adapted to the heart of what this topic entails, and I have seen the proof here. I often wonder how any musician can earn something back for all the intellectual effort they put in to craft a song...day jobs are a must...a far cry from the old days and dreams of becoming a full-time musician. Add to that this awful virus, which has pretty much cut into money to be earned playing live. I give credit and support to anyone doing this. 

I am currently working on my sixth album as a pure hobbyist, and I pay Soundcloud $16 per month to post all the work I have done. I can't complain about that, for I am doing this as...I guess my legacy...something to remain after I "kick the bucket". There are, indeed, great joys in doing this strictly as a hobby, for from my first album I keep trying to improve the mixing/mastering, and it is definitely there. When somone gives my work a listen that is a great feeling. Like another mentioned...I wish I could post to YouTube...not good with video. 

Do I wish I could do the playing in the band thing again? At 61? Oh YES! Keeping the day job though...


Edited by ginodi - August 15 2020 at 10:41
Back to Top
Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 09 2017
Location: Now
Status: Offline
Points: 5031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 00:44
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Recording an album no longer costs much. A laptop, interface, headphones and instruments. Anyone can make an album. Problem after that is how are you going to interest people to listen. It used to be the job of the record company or manager to push your music to get played on the radio to get exposure. They would pay radio stations to play a song so many times a day. Now the artist has to wear all hats and many of them don't have the patience, time and money to do that. There are too many musicians trying to juggle work and music. I can't think of many that are successful enough to quit their day job. And sales from albums are nothing unless you sell millions. Most weekend prog musicians are lucky to sell 100 copies of an album. Streaming revenue pays even less. The artist gets approximately 1/1000 of a cent for one play. Very dismal. By touring and merch sales maybe the artist can break even, but if your job pays more, and covers health insurance, it seems like you would take that over poverty for your passion.

Ever played or been involved with a band signed on a label and recorded bass for their debut record IN their living room?

As someone that's been in dozens of bands (I'm bass on Zealotry's 2013 debut tech/extreme prog from Boston!), recorded hundreds of tracks, dealt with record labels, tours, and etc. - the ability to make a record at home is still not super easy nor insanely cheap, initially for the correct gear, if you want something that actually commercially stands out, be it for literally commercials or advertising, etc.

In regards to being in a musical project, if you're expecting profit, you will still have a struggle. If you're just in it to have fun and pump out sick songs from your house with no expectation of success or affection from others, you will be in heaven!

Lying on the hill; crawling over the windowsill into your living room...
"What is Prog?"-verslibre
Back to Top
Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 09 2017
Location: Now
Status: Offline
Points: 5031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 00:49
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Recording an album no longer costs much. A laptop, interface, headphones and instruments. Anyone can make an album. Problem after that is how are you going to interest people to listen. It used to be the job of the record company or manager to push your music to get played on the radio to get exposure. They would pay radio stations to play a song so many times a day. Now the artist has to wear all hats and many of them don't have the patience, time and money to do that. There are too many musicians trying to juggle work and music. I can't think of many that are successful enough to quit their day job. And sales from albums are nothing unless you sell millions. Most weekend prog musicians are lucky to sell 100 copies of an album. Streaming revenue pays even less. The artist gets approximately 1/1000 of a cent for one play. Very dismal. By touring and merch sales maybe the artist can break even, but if your job pays more, and covers health insurance, it seems like you would take that over poverty for your passion.

As someone that's been in dozens of bands (I'm bass on Zealotry's 2013 debut tech/extreme prog from Boston!), recorded hundreds of tracks, dealt with record labels, tours, and etc. - the ability to make a record at home is still not super easy nor insanely cheap, initially for the correct gear, if you want something that actually commercially stands out, be it for literally commercials or advertising, etc.

In regards to being in a musical project, if you're expecting profit, you will still have a struggle. If you're just in it to have fun and pump out sick songs from your house with no expectation of success or affection from others, you will be in heaven!

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

  You are 100% wrong on both points. I have been recording music for over 35 years. Once you own the equipment, it costs nothing. If you book a studio sure, but no one does that anymore. If you make CD's or LP's there are expenses. But most unknown artists realease digital only to avoid these costs.

And here is what you can google about Spotify..."Spotify pays whoever holds the rights to a song anywhere from $0.006 to $0.0084 per play. The rights “holder” can then split these earning between the record label, producers, artists, and songwriters, which means splitting pennies between many parties." This is nowhere near 500 times higher as you suggested. I also know how much I get paid through my cdbaby artist account. The streaming amount I gave is accurate.
 

Yes I don't disagree - keyword though is ONCE YOU OWN it, and that's assuming you could afford quality gear in the first place. The initial cost to get started with home recording, though cheaper than renting studio time in the long run, is still way way outside the budget of the average musician working for hourly pay, assuming you don't go into credit card debt for stuff.

How many units are you moving a month though, and are you only paid out after a threshold or quarterly? If the goal is to make money with music, your initial point is kind of moot regarding cost being down. Cost being down = everyone is doing it = larger pool of competition = less money spread over more people unless you get something lucrative.

I don't disagree with the points you made, either; curious as to your reasoning w unit sales vs the pennies you get, when all sales are meh atm...unless you're killing it moving units on CDBaby which IS possible if you have a dedicated fan base!

It was expensive as HELL do that Zealotry record because we had to pay the drummer from Defeated Sanity (Lile Gruber) to track drums from Germany. Add in artwork costs not covered by the label. In the end the label pays for half and you pay for half, there is no advance on indie labels you take a risk for exposure. I left said band shortly after recording because I could see they had no means to perform live and as a bass player that's how I'm paid most/highest.


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - August 16 2020 at 00:52

Lying on the hill; crawling over the windowsill into your living room...
"What is Prog?"-verslibre
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: Macclesfield
Status: Offline
Points: 2213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 02:51
I'm on about my sixth album. There is a cost involved in terms of some hardware and software, but it's really not much. Occasionally on PA, you used to see bands trying to get a Kickstarter funded (for $30,000, in one case) to fund recording of an album - one word - "crooks". 

Streaming will get you precisely no money - it's a complete insult - and touring and merchandise sales will not make you anything either, as everyone, and that includes most members of PA, think that music is free. I've got years of analytic stats and, simply put, there are very few fans left, but a great number of freeloaders. 

Touring won't get you any money, there are not enough prog rock fans out there to fill a venue. Factor in PA, light hire, venue hire and publicity and you have a major outlay which will probably result in five people and a dog turning up. 

What we've been talking about here is "money". Prog is no longer commercial music, people play it for the love of it and not the cash, which is actually probably a good thing. Music is arguably best when separated from commercial considerations. It becomes art and not product. 

I've got a full time job in IT, it leaves me very little time to write music. I'd write more if there were people actually buying it, instead of hoovering up free releases and albums when I drop the price down to nothing. As I've perpetually said on this forum, if you don't support music, people stop producing it: it's a two way process. I'm not interested in the money but neither am I interested in being used by non fans. 

It's very much like sitting in a traffic jam and complaining about the amount of traffic, when you're a part of the traffic. Hey, there's no music coming out, no touring bands, no more free releases ! - ask yourself why. 

Edited by Davesax1965 - August 16 2020 at 02:53
MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Online
Points: 8861
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 05:37
Originally posted by GolfBoi GolfBoi wrote:

It's no secret that for most artists engaged in it, progressive music isn't a source of great wealth and fame. How do underground legends and aspiring musicians manage to get by when the sole process of recording an album demands great costs?

The major prog acts of old have no doubt succeeded to guarantee themselves an extravagant lifestyle through the sales of legendary albums, but how do those who operated in niche regional scenes (e.g. Rock Progressivo Italiano) fare? I would imagine music production and songwriting for more mainstream acts to be two common career paths?

Curious to hear the input of those well-versed in prog lore from reading numerous biographies and interviews as well as users who produce music in this style themselves. 

As AFlowerKingCrimson mentioned, the choice is either between a non-music job and a music job (like teaching or production).  Adam Neely (not prog) is a good example of a musician who wears many hats but all of which are music-related.  He works as a hired gun for various jazz outfits, teaches music, does production work for other musicians and is also a very popular Youtuber.  One of my friends too has a job as a music teacher that at least pays enough to subsist while he pursues making albums and performing live with his band. But his ex-drummer works in IT and has held this job the whole time - ten years or so - that he was in the band.  A colleague and friend of mine who plays drums for three bands (all different genres of rock going from extreme metal to old school rock) is an accountant like me. 

The only prog musicians who don't have to work other music jobs (that is, the band is their full time job) must be those who broke through a long time ago and get enough fans live to make it a profitable affair.  And that is a very, very exclusive club as of today. Prog-metal bands that got popular BEFORE the advent of streaming, basically.  Think Dream Theater, Symphony X, Mastodon. Only a very few of the classic prog outfits.  The Rush and Yes juggernauts are over; Hackett seems to have a great thing going on.  Even Renaissance wouldn't figure in the list of bands who make a whole lot from live gigs.  They have to crowdfund just to record one concert out of a dozen or so for DVD, think about that. 
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4357
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 06:54
Times change, tastes change, and technology always drives change in music....

I knew some fine musicians (Genesis cover band) who used to make ends meet by playing live music at weddings....that business has largely dried up with competition from DJs.  I've seen some amazing wedding reception DJs using laptops and MP3s, giving the crowd a nearly infinite selection of their favorites.  No live band can compete, unless the hosts prefer live music (there are some of these of course). 

As far as tastes....we know that prog is not the most popular musical form out there.  All music goes through peaks and valleys....big band, barbershop quartet, "boy band" a cappella etc.   Even classical is in a dry period these days, and COVID-19 doesn't help.  

It's never been easy to make money in music, probably going back to before Bach!  One of the worst things to happen to popular music was file-sharing via NAPSTER.  This was, in my opinion, the beginning of the end.  I know some who downloaded music (stole music, actually) and justified this because "the music industry was always abusive to artists."  Well, stealing their music outright was the ultimate in abuse.  

Support your musicians as best you can.  See them if possible....COVID-19 wrecked many, many live tours (King Crimson's 50th amongst others), and we may never recover.  Prog will always survive in some form, as does traditional & big band jazz, but I think the halcyon days of rock music are over.   Sorry to be glum.


Edited by cstack3 - August 16 2020 at 06:56
I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 10355
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 07:43
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

...
It's very much like sitting in a traffic jam and complaining about the amount of traffic, when you're a part of the traffic. Hey, there's no music coming out, no touring bands, no more free releases ! - ask yourself why. 

Hi,

I really think that this is all a part of a change in the "system" ... the days of record company controls are long gone, and the handouts are definitely gone, so a band expecting something from a record company is not likely to ever get anything.

I agree, that something in the process is not right ... and I think that folks doing this "out of the bedroom" (so to speak, not literally!), are the ones that have flooded the music market and helped junk it as much as possible, and you and I know from history that the only solution is complete change ... a new type of music and something new that will get everyone looking and going for it.

Touring, to make some money ... has always been a joke ... I was with GONG for several months and did a lot of photos on their first and 2nd West Coast tours, and the one thing I know for sure from the bus driver, was that none of them had received any money, and they "company" was a month behind in their payments, although they kept making sure that the gasoline was paid for the bus to be able to go up and down I-5 (freeway between San Diego and Anchorage) on time and all that. AND, I know that Sean Ahearn took a literal bath in losses on the 1999 SF International Music Festival ... which he likely paid for himself ... the bands got their money and travel arrangements, but the rest? Sean probably lost anywhere from 50K to 75K on the whole thing ... they needed a few more fans, and ... well the band choices were good, although I question some things ... Brand X was sad ... Buckethead was over blown and not that great ... things that could have been improved, I think. It was, otherwise a very fine show with outstanding performances, many of which were IGNORED by a lot of "progressive music" fans ... for example, Lana Lane and the Rocket Scientists did the most professional and clean show of the 2 evenings (aside from Magma) and only a few folks watched, and many even said ... too much LA metal! You and I would go .... ?!?!?!?!?!?! on that one!

My issue is that the "progressive music" fan, is not a MUSIC fan at all ... like all the commercial stuff, all they like is the groups they like ... and some things in the show were not appreciated ... Bondage Fruit was very good, despite likely not being known at all, Per Lindh was magnificent ... but hardly heard because some of it was hard rock bass driven ... Porcupine Tree was OK, but I don't think that SW did them any favors, by not explaining that they had lost a keyboard that they needed badly and could not find a replacement or part ... instead he joked about Richard Barbieri's old equipment ... 

A lot of these things have the tendency to take the taste of the "progressive music" fan out of my mouth and it is one of the reasons why I do not like to use the jargon, or kiss up to the FAN that posts the same thing over and over in this board ... they show no appreciation for DAVESAX any more than they do the anything else in music ... and for me this hurts the whole thing and the process ... 

If it were THE MUSIC, Dave, even you would have gotten a little more attention ... and sadly, as you say, just not enough to make a difference ... in my own case, please excuse me on my age, the meager earnings from Social Security have pretty much cut down about 90% of anything I would normally have bought! For example, I have NEVER reviewed anything UNLESS I owned the CD ... and the chances I had to write a review for some things, off downloads, I simply could not do it.

I don't have an answer, but sooner or later the traffic jams have to change ... we can't continue adding more cars to it ... it's a dead end for destruction and madness!

(See Ravel's Bolero done in ALLEGRO NON TROPPO film, a sort of Fantasia from Italy, but more for adults than the kiddies!)
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 10355
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 07:45
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Times change, tastes change, and technology always drives change in music....
...

Hi,

Ohhh yeah ... the folks that were "tekkies" became DJ's and now consider themselves MUSICIANS! And many of them are now saying their music is "progressive".

Embarrassed

Confused
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JR/F/Canterbury & Eclectic Teams

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 8940
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 07:56
Anybody have any idea what happened to CD Baby? This once excellent site has pretty much pulled the plug on its artists but still shows up in search results. It's perplexing and a great loss for many indie acts.

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
Snicolette View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 08:13
They closed their online store.  They still manufacture and distribute to their partners like Amazon, but no longer have an online presence for direct purchase.  I moved the product I represent over to Bandcamp, as have many other artists and companies.

Edited by Snicolette - August 16 2020 at 08:13
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: Macclesfield
Status: Offline
Points: 2213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 10:30
This is how it goes. 

Day job. I'm the Sales and Marketing (yep, "marketing") manager of a software company in Manchester, England's second city. (Arguable statement). I have 23 years experience, so please assume I understand marketing. I've also been a musician for nearly 45 years, so please assume I also understand that as well. 

Here's the statement: live music is DEAD. The "fans" - and the internet, but mainly the "fans" have killed it through greed. 

Whilst everyone was delighted to pay subscriptions for streaming music sites which paid musicians nothing, and felt more than happy pirating music off YouTube etc with rippers, guess what ? No money went back to musicians. Now, it's not all about music, but most proper musicians need some kind of relationship and respect from the fans, and that dried up. So. Most actual musicians gave up. 

What's left is a mass of people with very little talent who wanna be famous. Those kind of people aren't musicians, and they certainly don't play prog rock. Or any music which requires talent and dedication. 

Whilst many proper musicians aren't in it for money, they need money to do live gigs and for fans to actually turn up and *support the band*. Even in a big city like Manchester, the costs of putting on a single gig, let alone touring, are prohibitive. Most non musicians have utterly no idea how expensive or difficult it is to keep a band going - even if you're not semi-famous. It is *impossible*. The costs of venue hire, PA, lighting and publicity are such that only mass market music can afford to take the risk in doing a gig. Otherwise, throw your money down a drain when no one turns up. It's virtually financial suicide to do so without hundreds of local fans in the area. It's prog rock, people, you don't get hundreds of local fans. 

If you do some kind of crap mass market pop music - aka "not music but entertainment", you may be in with a chance. But specialised music ? Zero chance. 

So the vast majority of all proper musicians work a day job. They always had to, but now the situation has become so impossible due to the greed of the fans - in fact, the lack of the fans and the rise of the freeloader ripping music off - that virtually every musician I know has given up or just plays with other musicians for their own amusement and says stuff the "fans", there aren't any left. 

Fans support bands. If 99% of all "fans" don't support bands properly, supply and demand, the bands just give up. And this is the world which most "fans" out there have created. They have inevitably killed music with their greed, selfishness and shortsightedness.

No more decent bands, no more live gigs. Only a morass of crap, talentless wannabe's. The only bands with a fan base out there are charging a fortune for gig tickets. Why ? Well. (a) partially down to gig promoters and producers are creaming off a fortune and (b) recouping money from "fans" who just pirate all their music. 

So that's the world of music. I go back to work, luckily I work with three other musicians, so we play amongst ourselves. I occasionally do a few releases for my own amusement as there are some decent people here and elsewhere who enjoy them and positive comments are always nice. I give 90% of my music away for $0. I have a day job. I'm lucky. I wouldn't mind being a full time musician, but it'll never happen.

All of a sudden, all that "free" music you've downloaded, all those CD's you've not bought but pirated instead, all those cheap streaming services you've signed up for suddenly come with a price of "no more music". It's an inevitability. And no, you'll come back and say "But I do buy music !" Perhaps you do, good for you if that's the case. But 99% of fans don't - and look around you for the proof of that. 


MACCLESFIELD ILLUMINATI
https://brotherhoodofthemachine.bandcamp.com/
Back to Top
Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 09 2019
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 2240
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 11:04
^Well said.
Back to Top
Meltdowner View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE Team

Joined: June 25 2013
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 9736
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Meltdowner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 11:30
It's been difficult to juggle between my music and my job as a programmer, especially since I have to spend a lot of time on my computer to make music, which is the last thing I want to do at the end of the day.

My head is constantly swarming with new ideas but since I do everything on my own and it takes a very long time to get things done, they keep piling up. I was just programming drums but it's so tedious.

I'm fine if people stream it, I'm actually glad if someone listens to it, but owning the music even as a download, should never be free in my opinion. I think it devalues completely the art. All the money I made on Bandcamp (not much but a lot more than Spotify for sure) actually went to other musicians.

I've been trying to find other musicians around me but no one seems to want to make music for the sake of it.
Listen to my music and hear what it can do
Back to Top
Snicolette View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 11:41
I hear you on any money made goes back to other musicians and then some, for me.  I do believe in supporting artists.  I look at Bandcamp etc as a place to screen the music before I purchase, much like the old record stores that had listening booths.  If I go back for a second listen, it's because I didn't make up my mind, but after that, it's buy or don't play.  I don't have anything on Spotify that I don't own, unless it's not available any other way (and there are one or two of them).  

I used to make a very good living in the touring industry, running buses.  I am glad to be out of that business now, since I started in 1986, it had been harder and harder for bands to make money touring and of course the current situation makes that impossible.

My late husband played music and composed music all of his life and held a music composition degree.  When he married the first time and had a child, he cut off his hair and went to work to support that family.  He never stopped playing and writing, though.  At the end of his working days, he was a machinist in a Starbucks roasting plant, but came home every late night and still sat down with his guitars or keyboards.  

I agree that it's impossible for musicians to make money because of what has happened to the industry, and it's a shame.  But I don't think it will stop music from being made (and I'm not talking about the commercial pap), it just isn't very likely many people will make a living from it anymore.  And I will continue to buy music when I've found it worth hearing more than a couple of times, as long as that option is available to me.  
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
Back to Top
Awesoreno View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 07 2019
Location: Culver City, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 519
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 12:20
This is a very important thread and has given me much to think about.

I think it's also worth mentioning that with all the saturation and freeloading that the Internet provides, it is imperative to any musicians that really want to break out to STAND OUT in a crowd of others. As I said before, many people are bored of the music they listen to and have no idea. It explains why we have loops of music just to study to, it's just there as a way to help you concentrate on something else. It sucks to say it, but if you're playing a rehash of Yes or Marillion or Led Zeppelin or The Foo Fighters or Rush, etc., then you won't get much attention. Groups like Haken and Snarky Puppy have drawn crowds for the last couple years because they tried to be different. So there is success to be had with prog/fusion/experimental music, you just might actually have to be progressive with it.

This is not a personal attack on anyone here. I'm not about to say any of you experienced musicians are doing the wrong things because I haven't listened to your music yet. I won't assume it's dated, it could be on the bleeding edge of music. In any case, it's hard to make it as a musician, and even harder (almost impossible) to do it in a prog outfit. But let's face it, The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard probably wouldn't have been as popular if they started in, say 2009. And that's not JUST because of streaming (though that would certainly contribute, no question).

Also, I think Nu Jazz and Metal off-shoots have been and will be the new the playground for aspiring progressive musicians who really want to break out. Music that lends itself to being an interesting live experience is going to win out. Not only is it a more captivating experience for the distracted masses of today, but there is still more money in it than trying to sell an album and/or being a studio session player (as cstack mentioned). Sure it's not a lot, and it can be very expensive, as Davesax has elucidated and as I am coming to experience myself. But it's one of the reasons Haken is successful and An Endless Sporadic (a project between two dudes) is not, good as they BOTH are.

Nu Jazz and Metal have wider fan pools, so if you can tap into those, then one could feasibly lure them to the prog. Almost tricking them into being interested and inoculating them to your proggy ways (sorry for being so whimsical but I felt obliged to have something light in this downer of a discussion, despite it being the hard truth). But this sucks for musicians who don't want to play that kind of stuff. I guess, as Mosh said, you can't be successful if you're doing it for the love of the art form anymore. 


Edited by Awesoreno - August 16 2020 at 12:21
Back to Top
MortSahlFan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: March 01 2018
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 1207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2020 at 13:02
I just avoid spending money so I don't have to get a "regular" job
https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.105 seconds.