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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ In the broadest possible sense, everything IS prog on my prog channel, including David Bowie, Deacon Blue, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout, and today, Karl Jenkins. Smile

That kind can make me being worried on behalf of "Progressive Rock". Confused

Hi,

AND, it should, because as it is right now, in almost all "definitions", there is NOTHING in it, that has not been done before, other than it being electrified and LOUDER to make sure we notice it!

And that is my issue with a lot of these definitions, that lack musical content and information other than a description that most do not get or understand (odd times/crazy chords/etc) ... because that is not, generally what we listen to or for.

The issue is that those definitions are not exactly what the music is about, otherwise, a lot of the solo stuff would make no sense whatsoever, and in some cases, it doesn't anyway. 

So, for me, making sure that a new book adds to the whole thing, and makes it more valuable and important as a musical art form, is far more important than concentrating on the same "formula" that is being used that belongs to the "top 5" and no one else! And there was music then, that was just as progressive that got ignored, and is appreciated today .... but many listeners won't go past the "top" in order to make sure they and their friends are on the same page! Like PA!
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David_D View Drop Down
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Nick, I think it's best to distinguish between "Progressive Rock" and "Progressive Music", the latter one being broader and including progressive parts of other "main genres" than those I mention in the proposed definition - such as Blues, Country or whatever there might be of roots/Traditional music around the world, or whatever one might want include. It's so vast, or at least potentially so, I even can't think about it. - But one could of course start to define it somehow, and then see how it could be broaden.

And Lewian, by the way, it doesn't seem meaningful to me to include Blues as one of "the main genres" in the proposed definition, as mainstream Rock and Rock as a hole traditionally is very Blues based so, a fusion of Rock and Blues doesn't sound progressive.


Edited by David_D - November 21 2021 at 05:01
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I've included Karl Jenkins on my Prog Britannia channel on the grounds that he's a former member of Soft Machine, and additionally, his Adiemus choral albums could be described as Symphonic Rock, so that makes him prog-related - at least in my eyes anyway. Wink

It was not so much Karl Jenkins, I was thinking about, Paul.
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ In the broadest possible sense, everything IS prog on my prog channel, including David Bowie, Deacon Blue, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout, and today, Karl Jenkins. Smile

That kind can make me being worried on behalf of "Progressive Rock". Confused
I've included Karl Jenkins on my Prog Britannia channel on the grounds that he's a former member of Soft Machine, and additionally, his Adiemus choral albums could be described as Symphonic Rock, so that makes him prog-related - at least in my eyes anyway. Wink


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - November 21 2021 at 03:30
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ In the broadest possible sense, everything IS prog on my prog channel, including David Bowie, Deacon Blue, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout, and today, Karl Jenkins. Smile

That kind can make me being worried on behalf of "Progressive Rock". Confused


Edited by David_D - November 21 2021 at 03:09
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ In the broadest possible sense, everything IS prog on my prog channel, including David Bowie, Deacon Blue, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout, and today, Karl Jenkins. Smile

Well, I don’t know who Karl Jenkins is, but all the others have certainly had prog moments. Most prog shows/channels/podcasts/whatever recognise that many non-prog artists have released prog songs and/or albums in their career, and will play them. And I’m glad they are, as I have been put onto some interesting things I might otherwise never would have heard (of).

Bad Religion, for example, are a band very few would ever associate with prog. At all. But I heard a song from their second album on a prog show, and it was a real surprise.
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^ In the broadest possible sense, everything IS prog on my prog channel, including David Bowie, Deacon Blue, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, Prefab Sprout, and today, Karl Jenkins. Smile
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Everything is prog these days. End of discussion.

If that would be the case, Prog wouldn't exist, it would disappear in all other music. 

He's kidding. 
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Everything is prog these days. End of discussion.

If that would be the case, Prog wouldn't exist, it would disappear in all other music. 
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In my point of view, Art-Rock fits to "Prog Related", together with such as Bowie and Queen.



Edited by David_D - November 21 2021 at 01:22
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


Does crossover prog exist?

I don't see Supertramp or Roxy Music in this kind of classification.

well it exists, crossover prog is more or less prog lite, music that might be catchy, or even easy to listen to for some, but still have a bit of experimentation, outside the box thinking, going beyond the pop-rock song patterns. 

If you can think of other categories Supertramp and Roxy Music fit better, open a thread to discuss and we could find a better place for them. 

My question was referring to David's proposed classification, which lacks the prog crossover genre.

Here on PA there are many genres and, if I had to say the changes I would make, they would mainly concern other genres, not the crossover prog which is good for framing pop music with prog passages. Often it is art-rock, another difficult theme to frame.

Certainly crossover prog is a very varied genre, which if desired could be integrated into eclectic prog, an even wider genre that includes a bit of everything. But for me it can stay that way. Incidentally, I love the first two Roxy Music albums and I think at least one of them should be at the top of the chart.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Another problem is:
Does crossover prog exist?

That thing didn't exist when I wrote this article, and anyway, I only operate with "main sub-genres". 
If Crossover Prog does fullfil the requirements of the proposed definition, it can be considered as Prog by this definition. If so, it could be a part of "my" Eclectic Prog.

Personally, I could imagine that quite a bit of the artists that are labelled Crossover, I would consider as a kind of Art Rock.

Yes, basically we are talkin about art-rock, and sometimes art rock is close to post rock.

Talk Talk, for example, with Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, are included in crossover prog but

arent they post rock? Or avantguarde?

We can admit the subgenre crossover prog or we can distribute the albums of that subgenre in the other genres, starting with the eclecti prog,





Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 20 2021 at 17:53
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

- Not all jazz-rock fusion is progressive: it is not that of musicians who come from jazz: Davis, Hancock, Di Meola, Mahavishnu 

Principially, I distinguish between "Jazz Fusion" and "Jazz-Rock". Jazz Fusion is obvious mostly Jazz oriented (say Bitches Brew), and thus can't be said being part of Rock, and then is not Prog (but can be a part of "Progressive Music"). Jazz-Rock, on the contrary, has strong Rock elements and can be considered as Prog (say Birds of Fire).

Edit:
In my point of view, the most important thing is not which genre the musicians come from but what kind of music they make at a certain point of time. The musical process is an evolution (right moshkito?). 

My point of view, when I ask myself if an album is prog, is this: what would prog lovers say if they saw it at the top of the prog album chart of all time?

Bitches Brew is definitely a groundbreaking jazz album, but it features on every jazz album chart. Undoubtedly we can speak of jazz rock, as well as jazz fusion, but it is jazz rock made by a jazz trumpeter with a jazz orchestra, however expanded.

It should be added that rock was born as rock songs: as songs withe vocals, not as an instrumental piece. The instrumental pieces have always been there but, the more you go towards the instrumental land, the more you move away from the specific field of the rock.

Now, therefore, I understand who wants to put Bitches Brew in the prog charts, undoubtedly it touches jazz rock and has influenced prog music, but in my opinion it remains jazz, it requires a completely different listening than the listening that requires prog-rock. (The same thing I can say for electronic music)

If you talk about McLaughin, it may be that his records are already less jazzed and more polluted by rock influences, we are on the border between genres, but I would not see any records of him in the first places of a prog chart.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I would move Ozric Tentacles from Eclec to Psych.

I think it's better only discuss more general questions in this blog, but nevetherless, I can say here that in my point of view "Eclectic" is a good labelling of Erpland, as this album contains many elements of non Western music.
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Everything is prog these days. End of discussion.
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Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

I think it is important to propose the characteristics of each of these genre's that differentiate it from the others. For example, use of djent, double-base percussion, and coarse raspy vocals would often indicate Prog Metal, but not Symphonic. Heavy use of synths with little or no vocals might indicate Electronic, or maybe Krautrock, but probably not Prog Folk.

I'd say your list can be very good to use as a more/rather exactly description of the different "sub-genres", but anything like that is by very purpose avoided in the proposed definition as it would have a limitating effect on which music could be included - the definition talks about what must be fulfilled to be called "Progressive Rock" and classified as the specified genres.


Edited by David_D - November 21 2021 at 01:35
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Another problem is:
Does crossover prog exist?

That thing didn't exist when I wrote this article, and anyway, I only operate with "main sub-genres". 
If Crossover Prog does fullfil the requirements of the proposed definition, it can be considered as Prog by this definition. If so, it could be a part of "my" Eclectic Prog.

Personally, I could imagine that quite a bit of the artists that are labelled Crossover, I would consider as a kind of Art Rock.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Again, my biggest concern is that few folks here are interested and can see an ARTISTIC POINT OF VIEW 

Well, I must say about my self that the very most important thing to me is the music, and that is albums. I don't even think much about the artists, as they are just something earthly while the music is almost something heavenly, or in the best cases really heavenly, magic.
- For me it's as simple as that the artists are almost an obstruction to reach something heavenly, their music - sorry.
Edit:
Even sometimes, I wonder about how it is possible to do such magic (and thus think about musicians), but then I'm pretty sure that if I begin to dig in that it'll spoil the magic because the magic first comes into being in my head!
So, when I say, I'm Prog aficionado, it's very literally meant (music not artists).

Edit 2:
And so, moshkito, you have your perspective, and that's fine, but other people may have another. Smile


Edited by David_D - November 20 2021 at 22:58
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

        Further, I propose following main sub-genres:

* Symphonic Prog, incl. Neo-Symphonic (Neo-Prog), and defined as Rock fused with Classical music from any  country in the entire world

* Progressive Jazz-Rock, incl. most of Canterbury

* Progressive Folk-Rock, defined as Rock fused with Traditional/Folk music from any country in the entire world

* Electronic Prog

* Avant-Prog/RIO and Zeuhl

* Psychedelic Prog, incl. Progressive Space-Rock

* Progressive Metal, defined as all the sub-genres of Metal which can be considered Progressive

* Eclectic Prog

* Krautrock

and finally

* Progressive Post-Rock, defined as the more avant-garde influenced part of Post-Rock

   and Prog is here of course short for Progressive Rock.


I think it is important to propose the characteristics of each of these genre's that differentiate it from the others. For example, use of djent, double-base percussion, and coarse raspy vocals would often indicate Prog Metal, but not Symphonic. Heavy use of synths with little or no vocals might indicate Electronic, or maybe Krautrock, but probably not Prog Folk.

My thinking on this topic (several years ago) gave me a tentative list of musical characteristics that could be used to help differentiate genres. (This list is just a starting point -- it certainly needs work)

Timing Characteristics:
Tempo (low to high)
Time signatures (stable, varied)
Rhythm complexity (none, mono- or poly-rhythmic)
Notable rhythmic structure (timing of down/back beat, reggae, soca rhythm, syncopation, etc)

Melody Characteristics:
Note modulation (none, slow bending, rapid bending, sustained, droned)
Melody (none, pleasant, angular, experimental, noisy)
Atmosphere (bright, dark, harsh, deep, shallow, resonant, tinny, soft, harmonic, ambient)

Instrumentation Characteristics:
Instrument composition (acoustic, electric, ethnic, brass, string, synthetic, etc)
Use of odd instruments (violin, sax, mellotron, flute, steel drums, nature sounds)
Guitar style (lead, vamping, chord strumming, repetitious, shred, etc)
Guitar effects (sustain, echo, fuzz, overdrive, djent)
Percussion (none, basic, virtuoso, double bass)
Electronics (synthesizers, sequencers, MIDI, looping, etc)
Instrument mastery (basic, advanced, virtuoso)

Structural Characteristics:
Composition complexity (low to high)
Composition type (melodic, melody/harmony, counterpoint, etc)
Density/layering (low to high)
Song structure (verse/chorus, chord progressions, 12-bar blues, experimental, etc)
Dynamics (low to high)
Musical Scale (Std western, blues, mid-eastern, eastern, atonal, etc)
Lead/Solos (none, some, many, alternating)

Vocal Characteristics:
Lyrical style (none, romantic, sci-fi, story telling, poetic, meaningless, invented language)
Vocal effects (none, autotune, distortion, scream, twangy, synthetic, etc)
Vocal type/style (solo, group, operatic, melismatic, spoken, rhythmic, torch, instrumental, chant, shout, etc)

Emotional Characteristics:
Energy level (low to high)
Mood (sad, neutral, happy)
Ethnic Influence (western, eastern, asian, european, multiple)
Cultural Influence (drugs, violence, sex, historic, fables, fantasy, etc)

I think for every genre you propose, you could evaluate how each of these characteristics apply. After all, when you put various artists/albums into a genre, you must have felt, perhaps subconsciously, that they all shared one or more similar characteristics. What I'm proposing is that you (we) work on defining what those characteristics are.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I don't generally read fiction - apart from Labour Party manifestos. Wink

LOL
Which doesn't mean, I agree with it, but it's funny. 


Edited by David_D - November 20 2021 at 16:19
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