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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2024 at 23:57
Originally posted by STRSHPS STRSHPS wrote:

In The Hot Seat was the best last ELP studio album.

Are you joking, baiting? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Zappastolethetowels Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 07:22
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Peter Banks was a better guitar player than Steve Howe.  

Yes, yes he was
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 10:49
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by STRSHPS STRSHPS wrote:

In The Hot Seat was the best last ELP studio album.

Are you joking, baiting? Confused

I think it was intended as a joke. If you take out the word 'last' from the sentence then it would be ridiculous Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 10:56
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by STRSHPS STRSHPS wrote:

In The Hot Seat was the best last ELP studio album.

Are you joking, baiting? Confused

I think it was intended as a joke. If you take out the word 'last' from the sentence then it would be ridiculous Smile

I thought he meant later day. Confused
Anyway... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 16:26
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:


I never found that much of a problem with the short tracks on Fragile... really, the only one I think could be better is Cans for Brahms, which I have read Wakeman actually intended to use what became Catherine of Aragon instead... it even features the whole Yes in 6 Wives... and that single change would have helped the album so much. We Have Heaven doesn't bother me at all, and it actually segues nicely into South Side of the Sky, so it doesn't really hurt the continuity of the album. Five Percent is so short that if you get distracted you won't even notice that it passed. The Fish segues so nicely from Long Distance Runaround, that I don't feel that song is complete without the other. And Mood for a Day is actually a beautiful piece of music.


Listening to the album now, still feel the album lacks flow (just my opinion).

"The Fish segues so nicely from Long Distance Runaround, that I don't feel that song is complete without the other." - that is true, I agree, it should have been one song. They played it live like that.


OK, maybe if you were up to an experiment. Make a list on whatever you might (possibly) commonly use (ITunes, Apple Music, Spotify, whatever), include the whole Fragile, then change Cans for Brahms for Wakeman's Catherine of Aragon and leave out Five Percent for Nothing and give it a listen, let's see how it works for you then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 16:28
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by STRSHPS STRSHPS wrote:

In The Hot Seat was the best last ELP studio album.

Are you joking, baiting? Confused

I think it was intended as a joke. If you take out the word 'last' from the sentence then it would be ridiculous Smile

I thought he meant later day. Confused
Anyway... 

It wasn't a funny joke fair to say but clearly that wasn't what he intended. Even if it was then Black Moon isn't exactly classic ELP so thinking ITHS is better woulnd't be that 'out there'. I quite like some tracks on ITHS , mainly Hand Of Truth and what was actually a Greg Lake solo song (no other members played on it) Gone Too Soon. Mostly it's sterile AOR from a band that was running on fumes. They reformed a few years after for a South American tour which went well and not suprisingly they played nothing of it. Says it all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2024 at 23:19
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

 
I never found that much of a problem with the short tracks on Fragile... really, the only one I think could be better is Cans for Brahms, which I have read Wakeman actually intended to use what became Catherine of Aragon instead... it even features the whole Yes in 6 Wives... and that single change would have helped the album so much. We Have Heaven doesn't bother me at all, and it actually segues nicely into South Side of the Sky, so it doesn't really hurt the continuity of the album. Five Percent is so short that if you get distracted you won't even notice that it passed. The Fish segues so nicely from Long Distance Runaround, that I don't feel that song is complete without the other. And Mood for a Day is actually a beautiful piece of music.


Listening to the album now, still feel the album lacks flow (just my opinion). 

"The Fish segues so nicely from Long Distance Runaround, that I don't feel that song is complete without the other." - that is true, I agree, it should have been one song. They played it live like that. 


OK, maybe if you were up to an experiment. Make a list on whatever you might (possibly) commonly use (ITunes, Apple Music, Spotify, whatever), include the whole Fragile, then change Cans for Brahms for Wakeman's Catherine of Aragon and leave out Five Percent for Nothing and give it a listen, let's see how it works for you then.

It's fine, we don't have to agree on everything. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 16:09
Hot take: RPI is not a subgenre in the slightest. The reason for this label to exist and especially still include contemporary brand new spanking bands is just silly, purely judgmental, and has a tinge of xenophilia based on cultural fetishism and prejudice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 16:44
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Hot take: RPI is not a subgenre in the slightest. The reason for this label to exist and especially still include contemporary brand new spanking bands is just silly, purely judgmental, and has a tinge of xenophilia based on cultural fetishism and prejudice.

I'm no expert admittedly but Italy is a special place for music and culture. I hear a lot of modern(ish) RPI bands still obviously proud of their heritage and putting it in their music. Their is purity that is less obvious elsewhere, at least to my ears. We could also remove Krautrock on your reasoning. In fact Crossover and Neo are also silly sub genres. It's all music after all regardless of any label. They only exist for convenience sake. It's like going into a library and finding no seperate book sections for fiction/ non-fiction etc . Why would anyone want that?
Perhaps though the most arbitary label is 'eclectic'. Basically everyone wants to be in that one. It's the least obvious in terms of what it is and most made up one of the lot!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 17:04
Pointing out other similar problems is not a way to solve a problem. \_(ツ)_/ That's a logical fallacy.

But anyway, going by your "library analogy". Let's say: I'm looking for a sci fi book and can't find it under sci fi. Oh! It's in the 'Italian Speculative Fiction' section that used to be called 'Italian retro sci fi'!

Edited by Hrychu - February 13 2024 at 17:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 17:09
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by GodzillaStan GodzillaStan wrote:

Yes only made 3 amazing records (TYA, Fragile & CTTE), although the others have their moments.

Prog doesn't need to have complex time signatures, or virtuosic members.

Genesis was still making great progressive music well into the late 80's.

Derek Sherinian was just as good as Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess.

The only good part of Tubular Bells is the beginning.

Return to Forever > Mahavishnu Orchestra  

The only truly amazing ELP record is the first one.

Not sure about the word 'amazing'. Are we talking 'original', 'ground breaking' 'unique' or something like that? Often 'consistency' is considered important by many but that doesn't mean 'amazing'. In terms of great playing then all Yes albums from TYA to 90125 have that. ELP likewise goes as far as Works.

Prog doesn't need complex time signatures. True. Dave Stewart (the prog one) was a already parodying this idea with his band Egg back in 1970 with 'Seven Is A Jolly Good Time'. Check it out.

Genesis made some good tracks in the 80's such as Dodo, Domino and Home By The Sea. 'Great progressive music' is a stretch. More throwing a bone to their few remaining prog fans!

The Dream Theater one is hardly a revelation. 

Tubular Bells is mostly recognised for the opening section but it is mostly very inventive and highly original music that drew on some wider influences. Maybe his later albums are 'better' but are they just better organised?

I so don't care about Jazz fusion where its 'how many angels dance on the head of a pin' type arguments. Both bands had incredible players disappearing up their own backsides a lot of the time. Personally I reckon the British band Colosseum made the only jazz rock stuff that is worth listening to.


I disagree with your "take" on jazz fusion. Colosseum are one of the best, but not the best, for that you need to look at Continental Europe with Italy's "Dedalus"  and "il Baricentro" and from Germany "Passport" and "Giger Lenz Marron" (the latter not accepted by PA, but , oh, well)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 17:12
Speakin' of jazz fusion here's a super hot take: I have no problem with and even quite like jazz fusion with vocals!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 17:17
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Pointing out other similar problems is not a way to solve a problem. \_(ツ)_/ That's a logical fallacy.

But anyway, going by your "library analogy". Let's say: I'm looking for a sci fi book and can't find it under sci fi. Oh! It's in the 'Italian Speculative Fiction' section that used to be called 'Italian retro sci fi'!

It's only a problem in your mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 17:38
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by GodzillaStan GodzillaStan wrote:

Yes only made 3 amazing records (TYA, Fragile & CTTE), although the others have their moments.

Prog doesn't need to have complex time signatures, or virtuosic members.

Genesis was still making great progressive music well into the late 80's.

Derek Sherinian was just as good as Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess.

The only good part of Tubular Bells is the beginning.

Return to Forever > Mahavishnu Orchestra  

The only truly amazing ELP record is the first one.

Not sure about the word 'amazing'. Are we talking 'original', 'ground breaking' 'unique' or something like that? Often 'consistency' is considered important by many but that doesn't mean 'amazing'. In terms of great playing then all Yes albums from TYA to 90125 have that. ELP likewise goes as far as Works.

Prog doesn't need complex time signatures. True. Dave Stewart (the prog one) was a already parodying this idea with his band Egg back in 1970 with 'Seven Is A Jolly Good Time'. Check it out.

Genesis made some good tracks in the 80's such as Dodo, Domino and Home By The Sea. 'Great progressive music' is a stretch. More throwing a bone to their few remaining prog fans!

The Dream Theater one is hardly a revelation. 

Tubular Bells is mostly recognised for the opening section but it is mostly very inventive and highly original music that drew on some wider influences. Maybe his later albums are 'better' but are they just better organised?

I so don't care about Jazz fusion where its 'how many angels dance on the head of a pin' type arguments. Both bands had incredible players disappearing up their own backsides a lot of the time. Personally I reckon the British band Colosseum made the only jazz rock stuff that is worth listening to.


I disagree with your "take" on jazz fusion. Colosseum are one of the best, but not the best, for that you need to look at Continental Europe with Italy's "Dedalus"  and "il Baricentro" and from Germany "Passport" and "Giger Lenz Marron" (the latter not accepted by PA, but , oh, well)

I've not looked that much to be honest. It is a very personal 'take' and I'm sure not helpful in general but is jazz fusion just really a continuation of jazz music but using modern rock instruments? (at that time). How much of it was it's own thing? I'm not sure at all. At school there were certainly some fans of Billy Cobham knocking around. He could do ridiculous things on a kit but I still struggle to understand the point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 17:40
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Hot take: RPI is not a subgenre in the slightest. The reason for this label to exist and especially still include contemporary brand new spanking bands is just silly, purely judgmental, and has a tinge of xenophilia based on cultural fetishism and prejudice.

I'm no expert admittedly but Italy is a special place for music and culture. I hear a lot of modern(ish) RPI bands still obviously proud of their heritage and putting it in their music. Their is purity that is less obvious elsewhere, at least to my ears. We could also remove Krautrock on your reasoning. In fact Crossover and Neo are also silly sub genres. It's all music after all regardless of any label. They only exist for convenience sake. It's like going into a library and finding no separate book sections for fiction/ non-fiction etc . Why would anyone want that?
Perhaps though the most arbitrary label is 'eclectic'. Basically everyone wants to be in that one. It's the least obvious in terms of what it is and most made up one of the lot!
The only difference being that Krautrock is more of a style of music and not strictly defined by German nationality, as snooker legend and Utopia Strong member Steve 'interesting' Davis will tell you. Smile


 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 18:06
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

It's only a problem in your mind.
That's why it's essentially a hot take! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 19:47
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by GodzillaStan GodzillaStan wrote:

Yes only made 3 amazing records (TYA, Fragile & CTTE), although the others have their moments.

Prog doesn't need to have complex time signatures, or virtuosic members.

Genesis was still making great progressive music well into the late 80's.

Derek Sherinian was just as good as Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess.

The only good part of Tubular Bells is the beginning.

Return to Forever > Mahavishnu Orchestra  

The only truly amazing ELP record is the first one.

Not sure about the word 'amazing'. Are we talking 'original', 'ground breaking' 'unique' or something like that? Often 'consistency' is considered important by many but that doesn't mean 'amazing'. In terms of great playing then all Yes albums from TYA to 90125 have that. ELP likewise goes as far as Works.

Prog doesn't need complex time signatures. True. Dave Stewart (the prog one) was a already parodying this idea with his band Egg back in 1970 with 'Seven Is A Jolly Good Time'. Check it out.

Genesis made some good tracks in the 80's such as Dodo, Domino and Home By The Sea. 'Great progressive music' is a stretch. More throwing a bone to their few remaining prog fans!

The Dream Theater one is hardly a revelation. 

Tubular Bells is mostly recognised for the opening section but it is mostly very inventive and highly original music that drew on some wider influences. Maybe his later albums are 'better' but are they just better organised?

I so don't care about Jazz fusion where its 'how many angels dance on the head of a pin' type arguments. Both bands had incredible players disappearing up their own backsides a lot of the time. Personally I reckon the British band Colosseum made the only jazz rock stuff that is worth listening to.


I disagree with your "take" on jazz fusion. Colosseum are one of the best, but not the best, for that you need to look at Continental Europe with Italy's "Dedalus"  and "il Baricentro" and from Germany "Passport" and "Giger Lenz Marron" (the latter not accepted by PA, but , oh, well)

I've not looked that much to be honest. It is a very personal 'take' and I'm sure not helpful in general but is jazz fusion just really a continuation of jazz music but using modern rock instruments? (at that time). How much of it was it's own thing? I'm not sure at all. At school there were certainly some fans of Billy Cobham knocking around. He could do ridiculous things on a kit but I still struggle to understand the point. 
It is a challenge, for me, to define jazz rock, and I am a very seasoned listener of it.....I guess it is a true "fusion" of some traditionally jazz instruments like sax, trumpet, bass and drums and piano, and those of the rock music (at that time) like synthesisers, electric 6 string guitar and electric bass, for example....I feel it is great because I feel when listening to it, if it is done the way I like, I am getting "the best of both worlds at once" though my taste in jazz rock does tend to be for things "off the beaten track" like the groups I mentioned and I realise that to call a group like Dedalus or Giger Lenz Marron as "definitive" is pretty way out in left field, but so be it. I hope what I am elaborating on is not what some may find a struggle to understand-it is a bit of a struggle even for me to explain lol, but I am grateful for European jazz rock fusion in the end....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2024 at 22:06
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by GodzillaStan GodzillaStan wrote:

Yes only made 3 amazing records (TYA, Fragile & CTTE), although the others have their moments.

Prog doesn't need to have complex time signatures, or virtuosic members.

Genesis was still making great progressive music well into the late 80's.

Derek Sherinian was just as good as Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess.

The only good part of Tubular Bells is the beginning.

Return to Forever > Mahavishnu Orchestra  

The only truly amazing ELP record is the first one.

Not sure about the word 'amazing'. Are we talking 'original', 'ground breaking' 'unique' or something like that? Often 'consistency' is considered important by many but that doesn't mean 'amazing'. In terms of great playing then all Yes albums from TYA to 90125 have that. ELP likewise goes as far as Works.

Prog doesn't need complex time signatures. True. Dave Stewart (the prog one) was a already parodying this idea with his band Egg back in 1970 with 'Seven Is A Jolly Good Time'. Check it out.

Genesis made some good tracks in the 80's such as Dodo, Domino and Home By The Sea. 'Great progressive music' is a stretch. More throwing a bone to their few remaining prog fans!

The Dream Theater one is hardly a revelation. 

Tubular Bells is mostly recognised for the opening section but it is mostly very inventive and highly original music that drew on some wider influences. Maybe his later albums are 'better' but are they just better organised?

I so don't care about Jazz fusion where its 'how many angels dance on the head of a pin' type arguments. Both bands had incredible players disappearing up their own backsides a lot of the time. Personally I reckon the British band Colosseum made the only jazz rock stuff that is worth listening to.


I disagree with your "take" on jazz fusion. Colosseum are one of the best, but not the best, for that you need to look at Continental Europe with Italy's "Dedalus"  and "il Baricentro" and from Germany "Passport" and "Giger Lenz Marron" (the latter not accepted by PA, but , oh, well)

I've not looked that much to be honest. It is a very personal 'take' and I'm sure not helpful in general but is jazz fusion just really a continuation of jazz music but using modern rock instruments? (at that time). How much of it was it's own thing? I'm not sure at all. At school there were certainly some fans of Billy Cobham knocking around. He could do ridiculous things on a kit but I still struggle to understand the point. 
It is a challenge, for me, to define jazz rock, and I am a very seasoned listener of it.....I guess it is a true "fusion" of some traditionally jazz instruments like sax, trumpet, bass and drums and piano, and those of the rock music (at that time) like synthesisers, electric 6 string guitar and electric bass, for example....I feel it is great because I feel when listening to it, if it is done the way I like, I am getting "the best of both worlds at once" though my taste in jazz rock does tend to be for things "off the beaten track" like the groups I mentioned and I realise that to call a group like Dedalus or Giger Lenz Marron as "definitive" is pretty way out in left field, but so be it. I hope what I am elaborating on is not what some may find a struggle to understand-it is a bit of a struggle even for me to explain lol, but I am grateful for European jazz rock fusion in the end....

To throw a bone to it I have been listening to Bruford's One Of A Kind recently and quite like it. I also like the laid back cool vibe of Hungarian band Djabe. They play with Steve Hackett occasionally and have done a few joint projects. Perhaps it's the more 'technical' heavier stuff I don't care so much for. Cheers. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2024 at 14:00
Hot take: England by Amazing Blondel should be removed from PA because it is not """"""Prog"""""" Folk. Just generic, run-off-the-mill folk. If we are accepting selected regular folk bands without a prog or even rock element to the prog folk category, why shouldn't we accept all of them? Because they're not favorites of the members of the so called evaluation "team"? That's unfair and BS.
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